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Genetics make me crazy.

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Firefall

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I'll never understand the genetics things. I was so thrilled when "Sadie" had this perfect, healthy little filly. But you can still knock me over from shock when I see what color this little girl has turned out to be or "NOT" to be.


The first picture is her sire, I don't own him. The mare was bred to him when I bought her. Will she always stay this color or could she end up like momma?



Sire



Momma and filly
 
K

kaykay

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she looks like a solid bay to me. She will not get overo coloring as she gets older they have to be born with it and then sometimes it changes. some times you just get that!! overo breeding is not nearly as easy as everyone thinks it is. I know some breeders say it seems to go in years. One year all the foals are colored and the next year all solid. Now i cant see all of the filly so if she has any white on her she could still be minimal pinto or lw and its just not showing. But from this pic i dont see any white

Is that mare lethal white?? She sure looks it. Id be really careful breeding lw to lw.
 

Songcatcher

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I can't see the picture of the mare and filly well, but the stallion looks to be Frame + Sabino. The mare looks like she could be Frame also. If so, it was taking a great chance making this cross. IF both the stallion and mare were Frame, you had a 50% chance of getting a Frame (or at least a LWO carrier that may or may not show white), a 25% chance of solid color, and a 25% chance of a Lethal White foal. Be glad it was solid and not a Lethal White.
 

lyn_j

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[SIZE=14pt]To Complicate your color genetics further , friend of mine Ted Garman bred two SOLID parents mom has white blaze but nothing else dad is solid solid and got Holly Hills Kokopelli now owned by Robin Mignone in FL who is a VERY loud red and white Frame Overo![/SIZE]

Lyn
 

Firefall

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This filly is solid, very dark but has a white spot on her forehead. Do the sabino's

color after they are born or are they born like her mother is now? Just wondering if she would roan out at all like her mother is.

I know the frames are very hard to get. Just surprised that this filly is even the dark bay.
 

justjinx

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She looks solid bay.

My little sabino filly was born with white hairs mixed in with her red.

jennifer
 

Songcatcher

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Sabinos can express in many different ways (Sarah, Lewella, and Jane correct me if I am wrong), White markings on legs, face, and chin are typical, but not always present. Sabino roaning may be throughout the body, or more heavily concentrated in certain areas. They may also exhibit totally white sploches or even be totally white when maximum expressed (like Becky's foal). From what I have read, maximum expression Sabinos may have SOME color at birth that totally fades out with time, but I don't know of foals being born solid and developing the type of markings shown on your mare. (That type of color change ocurres in Appaloosas).

Like Lyn mentioned, horses that appear solid may still have the LWO gene and produce a loud Frame foal.
 
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kaykay

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i dont agree that a solid horse can throw frame. frame does hide but even on minimal marked frames they have white somewhere. cathyjo has a mare that looks solid but throws frame. but when you look closely she has a quarter shaped white spot on her shoulder and a white blaze
 

Songcatcher

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kaykay said:
i dont agree that a solid horse can throw frame.  frame does hide but even on minimal marked frames they have white somewhere.  cathyjo has a mare that looks solid but throws frame.  but when you look closely she has a quarter shaped white spot on her shoulder and a white blaze
440030[/snapback]

I won't argue with that. But, many (including all registries that I am familiar with) consider what you just described as solid. And, I did use the term "appear solid".

No offense meant or taken. I think we agree (even if we didn't understand/make ourselves clear).
 
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rabbitsfizz

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I doubt the mare is Sabino- she may have Sabino
She looks Frame to me. The sire- well, I am pretty sure I know his bloodlines so I think we can be sure he does have Frame, although he looks like a maximum Splash (just short of all white) + Sabino to me- has he been tested?? Has the mare been tested?? Please take on board what we are saying about Frame- you could have had a tragedy here- you are very lucky to have got an almost solid Bay!!! The filly should definitely be tested ASAP for LWO- then you will know what you are dealing with and can avoid either you or whoever buys her encountering heartache in the future.

[SIZE=14pt]Lyn, two solids cannot have a Pinto. That is it, I am afraid!! The one with the white markings?? That's a Pinto, my dear
Rowdy had nothing but a blaze and he was a very loud, Frame, colour producer. He was a Frame himself. As said, a lot of registries, AMHA + R included, have registered horses as "Solid" that are in fact minimal Pintos[/SIZE]
 

Dona

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I don't see the foal picture at all.
But, judging from the other responses, she must be solid bay. This is common when breeding overos. You don't always get wild markings. Since a frame Overo is always heterozygous...it carries one overo gene & one solid gene...hence, there is 50% chance of the foal being overo or solid. Now if you add other pinto patterns to the mix, that will increase the percentage of getting pinto patterns. The fact that your filly is solid bay, just means that both parents happened to throw the solid gene at conception this time.

Sabinos can manifest in different ways. Some are born with Sabino roaning & some "roan" after they are born. One of my Sabino fillies was born black...no roaning at all. By the time she was 3 months old, her face & legs were extremely roaned! (NO gray genes involved here either!) But there is a difference between Sabino roaning & Sabino "pattern". If a horse is going to have a Sabino "pattern" it will be born with it...it will not materialize later.
 
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Bess Kelly

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Dona said:
But there is a difference between Sabino roaning & Sabino "pattern".  If a horse is going to have a Sabino "pattern" it will be born with it...it will not materialize later.
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The basic pattern yes....but, they will develop splotches sometimes and the roaning can expand enough to greatly enlarge the patter they were born with.


I have two young mares who have "expanded" their color in just such a way. However, not to the point of not recognizing them
Both, oddly, are chestnut pintos. One have the classic white face, 4 socks....at about 18 months she showed spots on her back when her winter coat shed. I was hoping for lace but, got about a dozen scattered spots. The next year, she develops a nice fifty cent sized spot on her right flank. This year, a little roaning is happening. The other gal, had 4 high whites, blaze, a couple hand sized white pinto areas....at less than a year she was roaning, now she's heavily roaned all over, the white spots are double their size. At birth, neither showed more than dark chestnut with the white legs/face/and one the typical pinto pattern of a slightly spotted pinto.

They can give you some fun shedding surprises.


Added: neither carry grey. The more roaning of the two had both parents carrying sabino and one had splash also.
 
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Dona

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OK....I guess I should have been more "specific". By "pattern"....I mean WHITE markings with pink skin. These do not materialize...they have to be born with it. The Sabino "Roan" spots CAN materialize & spread...but these are always on dark skin
 
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