Garden Carts for Horses

[RhineStone]

OK, all you other driving horse people, is it my imagination, or is it a bad idea to have a mini pull a garden-type cart w/o a driver, just someone leading at the head?

This is regarding the thread on the other forum, where someone wants to convert a child's red wagon to a cart for a small mini to pull. This seems to go against a lot of good, sound advice from driving experts. Does this happen often? Is this common practice for minis that I don't know about because I am in the "big" horse competition driving world? Am I just being a "stick-in-the-mud" traditionalist?

Here are my thoughts. When you are leading a horse without something attached, and it decides to bolt, jump, etc., the horse swings around but you still have their head, because a horse can't leave w/o it's head. When you have something attached, then the horse can't swing very effectively w/o sideways pressure on the wheels, which in turn will dump the cart over. Either that, or because the horse can't swing, it bolts harder in front of the handler. In either case, said cart becomes weapon for both human and horse.

With the driver in the cart and the horse decides to "leave", it can move sideways in the front because it's head is "free", and the wheels will pivot. If it bolts forward, the driver moves with the cart, therefore hopefully staying with it, and stopping it before it becomes an issue. I know that when I have been in the vehicle of a bolting horse, there is no way that I could keep up with it on foot! Yes, in both situations, a driven horse can still dump the cart, and I have seen that happen. I think there would be more wrecks if those bolting horses were just headed. ADS has strong suggestions about people on foot heading horses, but pulling a garden cart while leading the horse, too, is not just trying to keep it in one place.

I already tried to say something to that effect, but apparently, I am in the minority on this subject. I don't think that people realize that "cute little horse" could do such a thing!

So before I go and make a bunch of enemies of "garden cart" people, what do you think?

Myrna

 

[Champ]

Myrna, if your "Am I just being a "stick-in-the-mud" traditionalist? " then I am too.....I don't think some people realize just how dangerous driving can be, even with the "cute little mini" that cute little mini can hurt someone really bad or even worse

Cart shafts, balance, weight etc. are made a certain way for a reason and to use something that wasn't made with horses in mind I think is a bad idea......IMO....

 

[disneyhorse]

Sorry, safety comes first for me, too. Because ignorance/ability level PLUS the fact that horses are just plain unpredictable are ALWAYS there to ensure that you will get hurt anyway, no matter HOW safe you try to be!

And when you put children in the mix... you have to be as SAFE as possible, no matter the size of the horse.

Andrea

 

[Shari]

If you want to do farm work with minis you can use a Forecart...with a work bed pulled behind it...or use a Buckboard.

http://www.buggy.com/miniforecart.html

There are other folks that make a forecart for mini horses.

These folks can custom make you one.

http://www.pioneerfarmequipment.com/

http://www.buggy.com/minibuckboard.html

http://www.amishcustomcartsandhorses.com/c...02bcaa262108620

 

[jegray21]

If you would not have a large horse hooked up to a garden cart then I am not sure why people think its a good idea for the minis! They should be treated the same and with the same safety precautions as the large horses. So maybe they are smaller but flight or fight still is the same! Yikes they are not dogs!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Generally speaking I'm with you guys, but I have to admit there are some things I'll do with a mini that I would never, ever try with a big horse. When faced with a rearing TB, I'm going to get the H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks out of the way!!

When my mini tries that I reach out and grab his forelegs and hold him up until he's tired, or if I had to I'd shove him over backwards if we were on soft ground.

Minis are very strong and can definitely cause more than enough harm to make you wish you'd been more careful but you can manhandle them in ways you simply can't a larger horse. I'm not saying you should (the kind of relationship you develop based on force isn't one I enjoy) but you physically can.

Can they get away from you, especially when motivated by fear? Most definitely!

I'm not arguing that leading a hitched horse of any size isn't a bad safety risk. But yes, I would sometimes take that risk same as I would hitch my mini to a sled without ever having done it before. I see so many worse things going on and being done to horses, I pick my battles. Arguing with someone else's choice to lead a horse attached to a little wagon isn't one I find worth fighting.

Leia

 

[MiLo Minis]

.....Arguing with someone else's choice to lead a horse attached to a little wagon isn't one I find worth fighting.

No definitely not worth arguing over but I think it is a good thing to make them aware of the reasons why they shouldn't be doing it as a lot of people don't actually know what could possibly happen, either they haven't thought it through or they don't have the knowledge in the first place.

At least you can say you tried and the responsibility now rests with them.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Very true!

 

[PonyKnit]

1262754341[/url]' post='1257023']If you want to do farm work with minis you can use a Forecart...with a work bed pulled behind it...or use a Buckboard.

http://www.buggy.com/miniforecart.html

There are other folks that make a forecart for mini horses.

These folks can custom make you one.

http://www.pioneerfarmequipment.com/

http://www.buggy.com/minibuckboard.html

http://www.amishcustomcartsandhorses.com/c...02bcaa262108620

Workbed? Where can one find one for hauling items? I have seen the forecart, but can't find items to pull behind it.

 

[RhineStone]

Workbed? Where can one find one for hauling items? I have seen the forecart, but can't find items to pull behind it.

What do you want to do with your horse(s)?

 

[PonyKnit]

Just hauling stuff around garden and firewood at times etc. keep in mind this wont be happening for a few years, as I a getting foal this next spring. But I like to learn all I can ahead of time.

 

[PonyKnit]

I have seen people train minis pulling tires etc. so whats problem with having them pull a cart? Either driving from behind or leading them from front?

 

[shorthorsemom]

Not me.. Considering that twice in my life I have been dragged by a large dog and injured... LOL, I am not about to get into a manhandling situation with my boys... however my trainer... I have seen her do what Leia described telling me to "get out of the way" while she won a battle of wills with one of my boys. I guess confidence level and knowing your horses and how much training you have can play into it, but also having knowledge and experience and physical strength to back things up.... but that said... Not me, nope... . I am a safety nerd and figure there are tons of things that can go wrong, but I sure am going to try to tip the odds in the safer direction.

During my younger years I thought nothing of hitching horses up and just going... I never gave safety a thought and would have laughed if somebody told me that driving a pair hitched to a buckboard taking kids for pony rides located right next to the ferris wheel at the local fair was dangerous.... hmmmmm. I drove a pony right down the road with traffic zooming around, I did lots of things in ignorance and am grateful that angels were watching me back then. I drove race horses at the local track too.

Then I got an education and realized how lucky I am that nothing happened and my goal in life going forward is to keep safety first. My bad wreck was on a riding horse, but it did knock some sense into my head about power. My helmet broke when it hit the ground that day, saved my head... so that is also why I tend to harp on wearing a helmet.

Best wishes...

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Depends entirely on what you are doing.

I grew up in a time when horses actually still worked for a living, the milk and coal and veggies were still delivered on a horse and cart.

The "driver" always led (well, actually he often ran behind swearing loudly as the horse went on to the next street without him, which kept us amused for hours...) the horse, from the ground. The only time the horse was driven was when it was going out to the start of it's round, or home at the end of it.

I know the person who "broke" the horses for this particular dairy- and I do mean "broke" as she had three days form their falling off the boat form Ireland to them being in harness for the first time, after which she either discarded them as not suitable, or put them into proper training.

Now, would you consider this wise, or even sane? But it was her job she had not alternative, so she got on with it.

She had horses stuck in trees (idiot replacement driver and not actually as bad as it sounds) and on one memorable occasion, a horse stuck (voluntarily) in the doorway of Woolworth's, but she never had a runaway.

I have two carts for winter work (and it is just work) a two wheeled wheelbarrow with shafts on it and a four wheeled garden trolley that has no shafts and the only brake is me with a bit of string.

I would and have sat in the wheelbarrow, but I would never sit in the trolley- it is not safe and there is no way to make it safe.

In all the years I have been involved with driving in one form or another the one time I have been truly scared (as opposed to terrified witless and doing a pretty good impression of Boudicca's) was when I was on a horse drawn caravan holiday in Ireland.

For some reason the man who sorted us out with the horse and van did not seem to be able to get his head round the fact that I was not intending to be leading this animal all over County Wexford, so issued instructions on how to get a (led) caravan across a busy road that probably made sense to someone who did not know horses.

My friend insisted on doing the first crossing by his instructions and got out and took the bridle. I sat, rigid with fear, on the box as she led the horse forward and managed, I think, five steps before I told her to let go and get back on.

From where I was sitting I had a very good view of how many things could go wrong and how badly they could go wrong.

I can see situations where leading a horse harnessed is OK- I cannot see any situation where leading a horse, harnessed, with someone, anyone, let alone a child, sitting in the cart, is OK or anywhere short of terminally stupid!

Which is how I feel, incidentally, about the person who "long reined" the horse and cart round the ring with a child sitting in it at Worlds (was it? or Nationals?)

Too late to say "What a stupid thing to do" when you are attending a child's funeral.....

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Replying to your initial post without reading any of the other responses yet:

This is regarding the thread on the other forum, where someone wants to convert a child's red wagon to a cart for a small mini to pull.

Wanted. Past tense. That is an OLLLLDD thread!

This seems to go against a lot of good, sound advice from driving experts. Does this happen often? Is this common practice for minis that I don't know about because I am in the "big" horse competition driving world?

Being completely, totally honest? Yes, it does happen. There is a BIG difference between a 29" dwarf that someone wants to have pulling a tiny wagon in a parade and a 16h driving Friesian. Half the time the person leading said too-small-to-drive-a-normal-cart mini outweighs the horse by a hundred pounds! If I can pick the animal up, I have very little fear about leading it attached to a vehicle. I would lead a goat in such a situation, or a llama. Why not a tiny mini?

Here are my thoughts. When you are leading a horse without something attached, and it decides to bolt, jump, etc., the horse swings around but you still have their head, because a horse can't leave w/o it's head. When you have something attached, then the horse can't swing very effectively w/o sideways pressure on the wheels, which in turn will dump the cart over. Either that, or because the horse can't swing, it bolts harder in front of the handler.

In my experience, the fact that the mini can't go sideways is what allows it to be controlled. It hits the shafts and you get another moment to bring it under control and go "Hey stupid! PAY ATTENTION!!" I've never had a cart threaten to dump over sideways in that circumstance but that may be because I've always had a two-wheeled cart.

I can wrestle his head to the side and between me and the shafts, he can't go anywhere. Now for an escalating panic situation this wouldn't work, but my "bolts" have only been startle reactions or momentary stupidity and as soon as I get him wrestled down he calms immediately so understand that's where I'm coming from when I say that.

If it bolts forward, the driver moves with the cart, therefore hopefully staying with it, and stopping it before it becomes an issue.

In the only true out-of-control bolts I've had, once the horse had its head the only thing you could do was steer and hope for the best. Kody is a master of taking the bit in his teeth and running despite having his head bowed in all the way to his chest. (Yes, we're working on that but that's a separate issue.) However when he's tried it when I'm ground-driving I'm able to set my feet as he starts and he hits that bit like a ton of bricks and bloody-well STOPS. Now I understand that with a cart attached the danger level SKYROCKETS as suddenly there's an axle trying to drill a hole in your shin and you may have to let go in order to avoid getting run over when the horse pivots or shies or whatever, which is why it's not a safe practice. But the smaller the horse, the lighter the "vehicle" (as in the case of a tiny wagon), the less of a threat that is IMO. I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm not saying that it's safe. I would NEVER, EVER allow a child or passenger in such a rig!

But I am saying that yes, I do honestly think there's a difference between the garden-cart-with-a-too-tiny-to-drive-mini situation and traditional driving practice.

Just my opinion, and worth what you pay for it.

Off to put on the flame suit now!

Respectfully,

Leia

P.S.- To be clear, I am only referring to a mini that is truly too small to pull a normal vehicle with a passenger. If it's big enough to drive, outfit it properly and drive it in an approved, safe manner!

P.P.S- Serves me right for not reading the other responses. Now I'M the one responding to an old, old thread!! LOL

Oh well.

 

[shorthorsemom]

I love all these responses, an education at every level, read it all and learn, old thread topic or new. love it, no flames education and learning and differences of opinion. cool beans...

Hey, i was there when my friend hooked a gate up for a horse to drag while we were breaking her to drive. (kind of like dragging a tire), ever hear what a metal gate sounds like being dragged over stone? YIKES

:shocked Man did that horse bolt, broke the gate, scared the pants off of us. She ended up being my first riding/driving horse, boy did we get luckythat day as I think back... All I can say is "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

She was always scared of school buses... LOL, maybe they sound like a gate going over stone.

Not making fun of anybody here, or making light of something stupid either... just thinking about how I used to take safety for granted because I didn't know any better and was a "confident fool"....the ground got a lot harder as I got older too.

Thanks all of you on this driving forum for the supreme education.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Depends entirely on what you are doing.

I grew up in a time when horses actually still worked for a living, the milk and coal and veggies were still delivered on a horse and cart.

The "driver" always led (well, actually he often ran behind swearing loudly as the horse went on to the next street without him, which kept us amused for hours...) the horse, from the ground. The only time the horse was driven was when it was going out to the start of it's round, or home at the end of it.

I can see situations where leading a horse harnessed is OK- I cannot see any situation where leading a horse, harnessed, with someone, anyone, let alone a child, sitting in the cart, is OK or anywhere short of terminally stupid!

Which is how I feel, incidentally, about the person who "long reined" the horse and cart round the ring with a child sitting in it at Worlds (was it? or Nationals?)

Too late to say "What a stupid thing to do" when you are attending a child's funeral.....

One of our milkman's horses, being led pulling the milk wagon, bolted around a corner and put his head through the back window of a car effectively ending his life but fortunately not injuring anyone in the car. He was a horse that stood patiently each time the milkman left him at the curb to carry milk into a house - well, all except that one time.....

Your last comment I highlighted in red is a REALLY GOOD ONE.

 

[paintponylvr]

Workbed? Where can one find one for hauling items? I have seen the forecart, but can't find items to pull behind it.

Any company that carries ATV equipment - most of that is small/light enough for the minis (B size only??) and shetland ponies to pull. Valley Vet carries a harrow that can be pulled by our little guys - either w/ single tree or a pair hitched to a double tree. TSC and Agri Supply both carry equipment that is small enough for a mini/small pony to pull. I don't know of the names of other similar type companies... I don't know of a "stone boat" or sled - premade or already built that is available for minis/shetlands. You'd have to have someone fabricate them for you.

I also actually put my pair of 40" shetlands to a riding disk this spring. Maybe if I weighed less (ummm over 250), and the footing hadn't already been ripped up by draft horses and really deep - they could have done it. I've been told when I have my other two ready and can do a hitch of 4 abreast - they'll be able to do it just fine - especially for applications of plowing, disking, harrowing, dragging, fertilizing, spraying our own 8 acres... I now know of several companies that have mowers - w/o gas engines! But might have to have them cut down to work w/ ponies - don't know yet. My end goal is to have our ponies working the land that cares for them... Have to get the equipment and get them all trained - I'm learning as I go - but I'm slowing reaching MY DREAM!!!

Here are some pics of our ponies (taken this spring 2011) doing this with a harrow that can be pulled w/ a single pony via single tree - This is two ATV harrows bolted together, on the end facing the person is the hitch for use w/ the ball on her riding lawnmower. She's removed the cement blocks that were on it when my pair, pics below, pulled it... -



a pic of my pair pulling same drag via a doubletree - there is no pole between them - just the interconnected driving lines, a "safety" blue line attached between their bits to keep them together and a breeching tie (actually don't see that - maybe i didn't use it here?)...



& here are two pics of my pair pulling the riding disk w/ me on it... first before we hit the plowed ground and then after we are in the plowed area. It was hard work for them and I didn't stay on the disk too long - and then drove them out of the field before I reseated myself on it. All the plow men at this Plowing Day function gave my "baby team" high marks and were openly surprised at how they did!

 

[paintponylvr]

As to the origin of this post - food for much thought and education... I'm of mixed emotions on this one. I sort of understand why some are so against longlining and/or leading while hitched - but at the same time - does that make all those headers both in AMHR/ASPC and large breed show rings wrong? Both with and without headers I've now seen some major wrecks in public - on YouTube and in person.

As to leading a small (as someone stated) drawf while hitched to a "non-traditional" wagon - I also agree - if I can pick up the small beastie than maybe that is OK? But then, I myself am getting into safety and wouldn't want to see that.

On training with a chain link gate - if you now drive with a cart, you will notice that different tires on different ground sound different (I have one pony that is terrified driving on any gravel w/ the metal ez entry but hook her to the mostly wooden sulky style jog cart and she's fine - on any surface. It's just so much quieter and non-rattley). I use chainlink as a drag in our fields. YES, it does sound different on different types of ground.

So does a tire - and the first time one of my mares heard the changes in sound and feel (tire) - WOW! She became a red eyed, fire breathing little dragon and I was very glad that I wasn't doing the traditional style ground driving but was driving w/ the left line out of the rein turrets. I quickly stepped forward and to the center and just let her lounge herself out - w/ 25' lines she was doing an almost 50' circle running hard, squalling and kicking. The tire flipped up, bounced and rode around swinging wildly at that point - and the single strands of haystring holding the single tree to the tire and the traces to the single tree held at first - for several circuits. When the twine finally broke - the tire became a missile, bounced and landed on top of my barn roof 18' above my head. I was shaken, shaking and rather discombobulated but she wasn't ready to listen to "whoa" or even "slow, easy" at that point... A couple more circuits and she did "slow, easy" aznd then "whoa", stand. After approaching her and giving her a rub/pet and letting both of us suck air for a bit, I sent her right back out to lounge, then using the outside line into play I moved into ground driving some straight lines, then finally did some figure 8's where I stepped around to her right side as well but still had that left line out of the turret. When she quieted down - we quit for a bit and she stood tied up while I got the tire down and fixed it to be able to drag again... then again lounged w/ 2 driving lines to the left only w/ some straight aways bringing in the outside driving line and moving into a more traditional driving position. When she was going well/quiet we halted and re-hooked the tire. This time she just froze... took some time to get her to step out, but when she got going it wasn't too bad this time. Tense but walking. No bucking. halted. walked. OK - trot. Leaped forward into two strides, then whoa.

Continued this way until she was "driving" quietly (my draft horse driving instructor insists on choosing a side to start with and keeping the line out of the rein turret on that side when first hooking up). Then, I disconnected the tire - switched sides and lines and did the same thing on the other side. While it wasn't as bad as the first time, it was a running, squalling fit. The tire didn't get as much air time, but the haystrings did break again. Again, I continued lounging until she remembered everything again and started responding quietly, then she got tied up to rest/think and I refixed the tire. Then once again - to the right - re-hooked... to say we were tired after this is an understatement. What a day. What a break-thru. Not saying i did everything correctly or that the way I did it is the only way... Next day - same thing - just quieted down and started relaxing and responding quicker. NOW - this is after 60 days straight of ground driving (after training her to lounge and she had spent 6 months as a riding pony), having been introduced to pulling a singletree w/o anything attached, having `1 pvc pole attached first on one side, then the other (some tensing, but no explosions and was working quietly BEFORE I moved to the next step...). We did this for several days - each day at first was tense, upset and unhappy to start - working towards relaxation until finally the day arrived when I hooked up the tire and she stayed quiet and relaxed and then stepped right off when asked at a walk, moved into a trot, back to walk... removed, switched sides - did great. So ran both lines thru terrets and moved right into ground driving "correctly" and more from the rear. This is all on grass, in one of my paddocks I don't graze regularly. When I moved out of that paddock - we started allover again because as soon as sound/feel changed - she was upset all over again... OMG - when we finally graduated to crossing my "bridge" between barn area and the driveway - first wood then the gravel... She's darned good at lounging now - let me tell you. She's also the one that still doesn't do well when hooked to the metal ez entry cart - but is fine with the wooden sulky. She's now good, w/ lots of work and time, with farm equipment and the red wagon... as a pair. But at first - I really didn't think she'd ever make a driving pony!

The other 5 ponies we've started did not respond this way - to either the pvc poles, the tire or the chainlink drags. One other one did - and to this day if you leave her alone in the pasture for more than 3 or 4 days, she's like having to start all over again... dratted pony and not mine. She's getting more driving time and maybe she'll become easier eventually as her owner insists on not giving up on her.