for the farriers out there

[weerunner]

I have always done my own horses hooves for 36 years and as I have sold some horses I've become the farrier for some of these new owners horses also. Mostly I have no problems as I have trained every horse I sell to stand quietly while I do my work. The horse in question was bought by a friend untrained as a stallion from a farm near here (not one of mine). I did a little training with him when the owner got him and instructed her on how to continue the work so he would become less wild. Well I've been back to do his feet 3 times in the past, and he has never been perfect but we always got the job done. I went to do his feet today and got both front feet done no problem, went to reach for his hind leg and he went ballistic. He was kicking out hard, rearing, anything to get away from me. Seems they got him gelded and the vet was less than gentle or patient. So the horse wants nothing to do with anyone touching his hind end anywhere. HE is not mean, I can tell he is just plain scared. I spent well over an hour trying some John Lyons techniques on him and just touching all of him to get him calm. He'd go right back to terrified as soon as I moved to his hindend. I dont have time to spend hours with him for one hoof trimming fee. He's not my horse, so I can't work on him everyday like he needs. I've suggested to the owner that she train him at it alot before I return next time. But.... If he is no better next time, what do I do? This lady does not have alot of money to pay a vet to sedate him before I come and she has had two other farriers refuse to do this little guy as he is alot more work than your average horse. It used to take about an hour before he was gelded as he never did stand perfectly still. So I'm her only hope. Any suggestions?

 

[Margaret]

Well I usually wine and dine

my horses to keep them plenty occupied while I trim. Some tasty hay usually will do.

Ive seen some farriers try to use this time as a training session, but I prefer to make a peace offering with something to eat. lol

Sometimes just allowing the horse get accustomed to you running your hands on him, a while before trimming will help, and then going at it patiently and slow, helps too.

With the troubled ones you have to keep in mind they may have founded or unfounded reasons in their head to be this way, and its up to you to convince them to think otherwise.

As a farrier I have always kept in mind with the unpredictable types, that if you tie the head held low or down, they really cant rear... ( good for front feet offenders )

And if you tie the head high they really cant buck . ( good for back feet offenders )

Although I have known this tip for some time I have not had to use it..as more of my focus is in paying attention to the horse shifting its weight to tell me of its intentions.

Sounds like the owner needs to help him overcome his fears by working with him on trusting people touching him once again back there, to make doing farrier work possible in the future.

 

[weerunner]

Unfortunately this horse is not one that can be tied at all. I have the owner hold him with a lead line but of course he can move anywhere he wants if he wants it bad enough. I'm hoping she will work on him in the next few months and things will be better next time. I just dont want him or us to get hurt.

 

[Ellen]

If the owner doesn't work with him. I would first try the twitch, war bridle or some type of restraint. Your only other solution is to refuse to work on the horse without chemical restraint. I went to school to be a ferrier. I only do my own. I work with my own to avoid this, but if it has to be done to maintain your safety, simply ask the owner to speak to her vet. Her vet will be able to prescribe something if needed. There are just some that need alittle help. If you don't own this horse, how can you know what is happening in between visits. I understand we all want to finesse these horses into doing what we want, but at times. It can not be done with out force. And really it is safest way for you, the owner and the animal.

 

[weerunner]

Well he will go without his hinds done this time around and hopefully she works on him. It's a shame because I think if I had him at home I'd get him to let me do them in short order. I had a mare that you could not clip her legs at all, she'd rear, kick, knock me over, whatever to stop me from touching her legs. You'd never know it now. I clip her whole body including legs, ear, muzzle with no problem at all. They just need to know that they can trust you. It takes time and consistancy. I dont have that luxury with him though.

 

[Ellen]

I know how hard it is. If you just spend the time daily, it works miracles and we never have to do the heavy restraints. But it is hard to come in and try, then 6wks later. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[krissy3]

I rescued a stallion that was pretty wild, it took about 3 years to tame him , but he is a lot better now. Gelding him helped but as you stated too, my vet was less than gentile with him , and no way was he letting anyone touch his hind end. Kids believe it or not helped. Shetlands are calmer with kids (IMO) dont know why . Kids came by , got him haltered and took him for walks , he liked that, soon he realized people did nice things for him. Then the kids ruined his training ( that happens )and I had to but an end to that. I found a natural trainer that had a lot of expierence with wild horses. Dont know what he did, but in 2 weeks that horses flight instint went away, he now stops and thinks before running away from something he doesnt like. With this "flight" switch turned off he can stay focused long enough to be trained , with slices of carrots as his reward. When I trim his hooves, I lift them off the ground about 4 inches, no higher. I have to bend and twist, but he is accepting human touching and I cant complain about that. My sugestion is to encourage her to take the horse to a professional , calm trainer that specializes in wild horses. If she doesnt have it under control by now then , like me , she needs to find another way to "communicate "with this horse.

 

[Charlotte]

I guess I'm really dumb here and off subject. apologies for that, but I don't understand about the vet being rough on a horse when gelding and making the horse fearful. How does that happen? Our vet sedates the horse and he doesn't know anything untill he wakes up. Horse doesn't have any emotional issues from the procedure once the initial soreness is gone. What am I missing here?

Charlotte

 

[Connie P]

I was wondering the same thing Charlotte.

I have a couple geldings that I purchased to get them into a better situation and as soon as they had enough groceries in them one of them started trying to kill us everytime we went anywhere near ANY of his feet. I have tried everything to change this behavior to no avail. He attacked the farrier one day (thank goodness I have a patient farrier). He will stand on his rear legs and strike out at me also. I sedate him myself. Your friend may want to consider that. I used to have the vet come and tranq him IV, but to save the farm call he said I can just come to the office and pick up the tranq and give it IM. Saves me 70.00 everytime and we are all MUCH safer when he is sedated (including him-the horse). This is what works for me.

 

[weerunner]

It also confused me a bit, but the owner said that the vet grabbed Dallas by the tail to try to position him and I guess he wasn't sedated enough and he flipped out over that. Maybe he didn't have enough sedative for the operation,,not sure. The vet does a local sedative which leaves the horse awake but he can't feel whats happening. I guess he was traumatized even though it didn't hurt.

 

[Genie]

Well, you have a lot more experience than I so I am sure you tried everything that I have ever tried.

We use the nose clip which is usually enough for most horses.

We also have a training halter that works well for horses with more problems than the clip will cure.

It is excellent if used properly and takes training with a video that comes with the purchase of the halter.

If not used properly you will really confuse the horse, so it is to be used only after you are comfortable with the way to use.

 

[krissy3]

I guess I'm really dumb here and off subject. apologies for that, but I don't understand about the vet being rough on a horse when gelding and making the horse fearful. How does that happen? Our vet sedates the horse and he doesn't know anything untill he wakes up. Horse doesn't have any emotional issues from the procedure once the initial soreness is gone. What am I missing here?
Charlotte

I had a very wild and scared little pony. I stayed with him all morning in the stall trying to keep him calm, playing soft music. The vet came in with an assistant. She grabbed him and put him in a head lock while the vet slammed him to the ground, poor little guy was shaking and so scared. After about 10 attempts at sticking him with a needle for the IV he finally got a vein. I was relieved, but then suddenly shocked when the vet got out his surgical staple gun and stapled the IV tube to the side of his neck...about 5 staples..all of this was done before any sedation was given .I cant imagine what he was thinking , and feeling. The process was normal, but I still cringed when I herd Blanco wimper through it. The comming out of sedation part was dreadful. It took about 45 min for the horse to be able to stand on his own, the vet held him up by the dock of his tail , and mane. I thought this was extream and a little harsh. There was just a lack of compasion, sympathy, and concern, my vet was a male, I would have thought there would be more sympathy.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I guess I'm really dumb here and off subject. apologies for that, but I don't understand about the vet being rough on a horse when gelding and making the horse fearful. How does that happen? Our vet sedates the horse and he doesn't know anything until he wakes up. Horse doesn't have any emotional issues from the procedure once the initial soreness is gone. What am I missing here?
Charlotte

I had a very wild and scared little pony. I stayed with him all morning in the stall trying to keep him calm, playing soft music. The vet came in with an assistant. She grabbed him and put him in a head lock while the vet slammed him to the ground, poor little guy was shaking and so scared. After about 10 attempts at sticking him with a needle for the IV he finally got a vein. I was relieved, but then suddenly shocked when the vet got out his surgical staple gun and stapled the IV tube to the side of his neck...about 5 staples..all of this was done before any sedation was given .I cant imagine what he was thinking , and feeling. The process was normal, but I still cringed when I herd Blanco whimper through it. The coming out of sedation part was dreadful. It took about 45 min for the horse to be able to stand on his own, the vet held him up by the dock of his tail , and mane. I thought this was extreme and a little harsh. There was just a lack of compassion, sympathy, and concern, my vet was a male, I would have thought there would be more sympathy.

OK, this is going to sound harsh, especially as all this is done now, but, for future reference, any Vet that tried anything like any of this with any of my horses would leave my farm carrying his testicles in a box!!!!

You do NOT have to let the Vet misuse your horses.

I am quite sure there are more diplomatic methods of dealing with Vets, but I have always been straightforward and up front and if that gets me a reputation for being an interfering owner (which, strangely enough, it never has!!) so be it!

OK, back to the original topic......

The owner needs to teach, (or have taught) the horse to tie up. I would not pare a horse that was not tied, end of story, I am afraid.

The owner needs to teach the horse to allow you to handle it's feet.

If she does not I would not pare her horse, I would be sorry, I would apologise to the owner, but I would not pare the horse.

I actually have a life (and I am quite sure that you do also) and I already have back problems.

Owners often do not think beyond their own horses, this is unfortunate, but not really their fault, either.

Just tell her to get the horse sorted (or pay you to do it!!) or, you are sorry, but you will not be able to do the horse.

And I would also check your local laws about practising Farriery.........

 

[Gini]

OK, this is going to sound harsh, especially as all this is done now, but, for future reference, any Vet that tried anything like any of this with any of my horses would leave my farm carrying his testicles in a box!!!!
You do NOT have to let the Vet misuse your horses.

I am quite sure there are more diplomatic methods of dealing with Vets, but I have always been straightforward and up front and if that gets me a reputation for being an interfering owner (which, strangely enough, it never has!!) so be it!

Jane thank you. All this needed to be said. I have had 10 of my horses gelded. None and I mean none have been treated the way your vet did yours. No wonder he doesn't want anyone messing with his backside. Mine do not flinch while we do their feet and I'm sure have no idea of what went on down there. They were out! As for the vet stapling the tube to his neck hasn't he ever heard of tape. I'm sorry but what an idiot that vet is. He would never treat my horses ever again!!!

 

[krissy3]

OK, this is going to sound harsh, especially as all this is done now, but, for future reference, any Vet that tried anything like any of this with any of my horses would leave my farm carrying his testicles in a box!!!!
You do NOT have to let the Vet misuse your horses.

I am quite sure there are more diplomatic methods of dealing with Vets, but I have always been straightforward and up front and if that gets me a reputation for being an interfering owner (which, strangely enough, it never has!!) so be it!

Jane thank you. All this needed to be said. I have had 10 of my horses gelded. None and I mean none have been treated the way your vet did yours. No wonder he doesn't want anyone messing with his backside. Mine do not flinch while we do their feet and I'm sure have no idea of what went on down there. They were out! As for the vet stapling the tube to his neck hasn't he ever heard of tape. I'm sorry but what an idiot that vet is. He would never treat my horses ever again!!!

"idiot" is a nice word for him...He is the "top " vet here in the area...needless to say, I have found another 1 hour or so away, another man, but a very soft man. His trainer, Fritz is a SAINT, also a man. I can scratch Blancos belly now, and touch him all over, but he is not the huggable kind of horse like my mares. He would rather do tricks for treats. all of this happened so fast , and everything spoken in another language , that I really couldnt stop mid way through the preceedure. Some Swiss people are just not warm and fuzzy like Americans or the British, with the exception of my trainer Fritz the SAINT !! Animals are not treated like humans here, except my ponys, they are treated better then most humans. I agree that the owner needs to accept her responsibility in her horse, if she cant then she needs to give that horse to sommeone that has the time or the money to invest in good manners.

 

[HGFarm]

Regarding the OP and what to do... there is not much you CAN do. It is the owners responsibility to teach this horse to stand tied, or cross tied, etc.... and learn manners.

If this problem is due to harsh treatment, they are going to have to start all over and do their homework to get this horse ok with having his back end handled again. They need to 'camp out' with him and just give him tons of gentle quiet handling and picking up his legs, etc.....

It sounds like he has made some progress since he first got there, and kudos to the new owners for having him gelded, but they cannot leave it to someone else to do the basics with this horse- that is their job they took on.

I would refuse to work with the horse until he is better- most of the farriers I know would pack their bags and go home if they got one like that. Or, you can charge triple the price, which will include training fees for working with the horse to try to get him done.

We have used a twitch on really bad ones (full sized horses I am refering to) and also what we called a Scotch hobble on some rank ones (with the twitch also) on some of the nasty ranch horses we had to work with, and an abused mare that we got from some folks. It does not hurt them but makes it safer for you and the horse, while you work with him.

None of this though, is going to make up for lack of handling or training by the owner.

 

[MiLo Minis]

One of my clients has a mare that when I first started working with her she would cringe and cower and then kick like mad if you even tried to touch her back end. The first time I worked with her we got the front feet trimmed but I only picked up her back feet and did not trim them - just picked them up and patted her and then put them down. I used a thick soft cotton lead line tied around her fetlock, with a slip knot that you can quickly pull snug and flip the rope to loosen off, to pull the foot up without putting myself in danger and then rubbed and patted her starting at her hip and working my way down to her foot. Every time I got to the point where she got stressed I would back up a bit and then work my way down again. It has been over a year since the first time I trimmed her and she now picks her feet up fairly well most times without fuss but she is a mare that needs careful handling at all times. I don't know for certain where her fear comes from but she is most definitely fearful rather than obnoxious and from the condition of her back feet the first time I saw her it had gone on for some time. If your client expects you to do this training for her then she should also expect to pay for your time. If you don't feel you can competently do this then you might suggest this method to her and let her know that you won't trim the horse till he is safe to handle - it really isn't your responsibility, as a farrier, to train the horse.

 

[TaylorMarie]

I have always done my own horses hooves for 36 years and as I have sold some horses I've become the farrier for some of these new owners horses also. Mostly I have no problems as I have trained every horse I sell to stand quietly while I do my work. The horse in question was bought by a friend untrained as a stallion from a farm near here (not one of mine). I did a little training with him when the owner got him and instructed her on how to continue the work so he would become less wild. Well I've been back to do his feet 3 times in the past, and he has never been perfect but we always got the job done. I went to do his feet today and got both front feet done no problem, went to reach for his hind leg and he went ballistic. He was kicking out hard, rearing, anything to get away from me. Seems they got him gelded and the vet was less than gentle or patient. So the horse wants nothing to do with anyone touching his hind end anywhere. HE is not mean, I can tell he is just plain scared. I spent well over an hour trying some John Lyons techniques on him and just touching all of him to get him calm. He'd go right back to terrified as soon as I moved to his hindend. I dont have time to spend hours with him for one hoof trimming fee. He's not my horse, so I can't work on him everyday like he needs. I've suggested to the owner that she train him at it alot before I return next time. But.... If he is no better next time, what do I do? This lady does not have alot of money to pay a vet to sedate him before I come and she has had two other farriers refuse to do this little guy as he is alot more work than your average horse. It used to take about an hour before he was gelded as he never did stand perfectly still. So I'm her only hope. Any suggestions?

maybe try giving him a little workout before you attempt to trim him and put him in a smaller space so he can't get away ( small stall)

Taylor

 

[chandab]

I would refuse to work with the horse until he is better- most of the farriers I know would pack their bags and go home if they got one like that. Or, you can charge triple the price, which will include training fees for working with the horse to try to get him done.

My (new) farrier told me upfront, if a horse kicks him it'll cost me $100/kick extra (this is what he charges everyone for horses that kick). He's gone places with 10 horses with a few kickers in the bunch and gone home with $2500-3000 for the day (he charges $35/trim and I don't know on shoes). He's willing to work with them, but it'll cost you. I just started using this farrier this year, as my last one left last December; I've been very happy with the work he does, and my horses haven't looked better.

 

[Ellen]

Oh, I have to apologize. I missed the part about the owners financial concerns. God Bless you for taking that, above your safety in to consideration. Do you have someone you are confident in, a friend, relative that could ride along that day? Sometimes horses are so much better when the owner is not present.

I have 6 horses that were untouched when I got them. All shetlands. 3 were yearlings. 2 you would think I raised. One likes my son. The 3 older ones I had to just keep doing what you suggested for her to do. One still prefers not to have her hinds done. But, I just do what you suggested. It is hard. But, even harder when you come in every six weeks. Mind if I ask my very good friend who is ferrier what he reccomends. As I said I went to school, but do my own. Dale still rotates thru my herd and helps. He has been at it 30+ years. I bet he has some great suggestions.