Dwarf Question

[MyMiniGal]

Since I can't ask on the dwarf forum, I guess I have to ask here. I've always wondered what makes a mini a dwarf? Is it just their size, or are there other characteristics? Can you have a smaller mini 26-28" and have it not be a dwarf?

Never mind...looked and read around on the dwarf forum, and know the answer to my questions. Moderators, is you want to delete this question, please do so, as I don't want to take up needed space.

 

[Tremor]

It's actually neither. You can have a small horse with horrible conformation and it not be a dwarf. I have one.

Dwarfism is just like it is in humans. Same names for the types as well. It's a genetic disease.

Here is a thread on an outside forum with predominantly large horse owners. It was our attempt at educating them about dwarfism. It was a great thread and I hope the Mods will allow the link since we were educating the outside population about dwarfism and the issues within our breed.

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/equine-dwarfism-101-a-361669.html

Edit: you can have dwarves who are taller as well. They don't have to be a certain height btw.

 

[Tremor]

Just to make a connection to the thread as well, the Achndroplasia foal with the red halter was owned by me and my family. His name was Trae and we put him down as a yearling. His dam carried both Achondroplasia and Brachioplasia dwarfism.

The grey carrier mare, that was my mare as well. She produced an Achondroplasia dwarf colt built just like Trae. It was tragic. We tried for years to get her pregnant and she ended up with a dwarf. Wendall, the colt, passed a few days after. He was perfect. Adorable steel grey color with an Appaloosa spot and a partial blaze. Loved him.

 

[MyMiniGal]

Ok, thank you. I honestly thought "dwarf" meant smaller, and I did realize they can have bigger heads and stockier build, but I would think a "normal" horse could have that too. Will read that link you put up.

 

[targetsmom]

This was quite good information on here that I think everyone should read. But one thing has always bothered me, when you consider the information I picked out from that link and quote below: :

"•Because dwarfism is recessive, carriers will often appear normal
–Because dwarfism is in over 50% of miniature horses, a majority of breeders will eventually have dwarf offspring appear from phenotypically normal carrier stock
–Dwarfism effects all miniature horse bloodlines, from pets to show quality champions


•It is considered good practice to geld stallions and retire mares from breeding if they produce a dwarf offspring
–Since dwarfism is recessive both parents are carriers"

This is targetsmom again: So if around 50% of all minis are dwarf carriers (I think John Eberth puts the estimate a bit lower, at 25-40%), and carriers will usually appear normal, there is no test for dwarfism at this time, and it is considered good practice to stop breeding animals that are found to be carriers (because they produced a dwarf and both parents are carriers); How can you be sure - unless you stop breeding entirely- that you won't replace these minis with other dwarf carriers?

 

[Tremor]

You can't and that sucks. It also sucks that you can geld the stallion but you can't cheaply sterilize the mare. You can tell new owners that's she's a carrier, but they may choose to ignore it.

If there was testing I think it would greatly benefit the breed. We may not have to geld or sterilize mares and stallions. Maybe instead we could test for all four/five types (there was a rumor about a fifth type that resulted in a terminated pregnancy) and breed them to a mate that didn't carry for the same types they do.

Say I have a mare that produced a dwarf and she has some grown offspring that I would like to breed. I would be hesitant because of their status. Are they carrier? Or are they not carriers?

I would love it if all of the tests could be released to the public.

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

Here's another sticky situation... What if you have a horse that is conformationally correct, goes to Nationals or World and wins top honors. You take them home, breed them, and they produce several beautiful foals... Then, WHAM! along comes a dwarf... What do you do then?

It's definitely a crap shoot! Someone else likened it to playing Russian Roulette....

Kari

 

[Tremor]

Here's another sticky situation... What if you have a horse that is conformationally correct, goes to Nationals or World and wins top honors. You take them home, breed them, and they produce several beautiful foals... Then, WHAM! along comes a dwarf... What do you do then?

It's definitely a crap shoot! Someone else likened it to playing Russian Roulette....

Kari

Even better questions, what do you do with the adult offspring? Do you tell their owners? The owners of their offspring?

Do you tell the original breeders of the Nationals/Worlds horse assuming you bought them?

Sticky situations.

Personally, the original breeders know that any/all of my horses produced dwarves. I emailed them, talked to them in person, put it on my website, and have discussed it here. It's what I felt was right.

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

I was disappointed with Little King Farms because they started bringing in Shetland blood and raising the height of their foals... Now I'm wondering if they were doing that to help dilute the dwarf gene and bring in more bloodlines...

Kari

 

[Tremor]

I was disappointed with Little King Farms because they started bringing in Shetland blood and raising the height of their foals... Now I'm wondering if they were doing that to help dilute the dwarf gene and bring in more bloodlines...

Kari

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that was the reasoning, especially since John Eberths was involved with the herd.

 

[MyMiniGal]

I guess my question would be, a person would retire any horses that produce dwarfism, even if like say, 1 out of 10 of their foals, was the only dwarf? So 9 turn out ok, or better yet, show quality, you would still retire them due to the one dwarf?

 

[Tremor]

I guess my question would be, a person would retire any horses that produce dwarfism, even if like say, 1 out of 10 of their foals, was the only dwarf? So 9 turn out ok, or better yet, show quality, you would still retire them due to the one dwarf?

This is only my opinion, but at the moment where the breed is, I would say yes. Even though we're all playing Russian Roulette. The adults can easily be used for something else other than breeding, such as showing or driving, etc. the youngsters you still have a chance of them not being a carrier.

Until the gene testing is out, we have no way of knowing whether the offspring are dwarf carriers.

So, personally, I think all known dwarf carriers ought be taken out of the gene pool (by gelding or retiring from breeding). The offspring, their is still a chance that they aren't carriers or if they are, that their foals will not be carriers.

Once the testing is out, we can test our breeding stock and breed carriers to non-carriers and non-carriers to non-carriers. Hopefully, that way the dwarf gene will be non-existent in the breed.

*Hopefully*. Yet, that is a mere dream at the moment.

 

[BSharpRanch]

I will play Devil's advocate for just a moment.

Say the test is developed and everyone tests their horse and it seems as if every mini carriers a dwarf gene of one kind or another. Then what?

 

[Tremor]

I will play Devil's advocate for just a moment.

Say the test is developed and everyone tests their horse and it seems as if every mini carriers a dwarf gene of one kind or another. Then what?

As far as I understand it, it'd be okay if you're not breeding two carriers that carry the SAME type of dwarfism. You know? If they don't carry the same gene, then they won't have a dwarf.
That would have been okay with my herd...except I think our stallion carried three types of dwarfism as he produced Diastrophia, Achondroplasia, and Brachioplasia foals and one of our mares had the latter two types.

In all honestly, we should have gelded the stallion and retired the mares after the first dwarf they produced. But we weren't educated enough and well...I didn't have full power over the herd. I will this July when I turn 18.

EDIT: Like I said above, our stallion carried the first three types of dwarfism because he produced them all. We don't know about type four or five (both lethal).

We have two mares that carry one type, that we know of since they've only produced one type. If our stallion carried a gene that they didn't, then I think that we would have prevented the dwarves that they produced and instead produced carriers of one type of dwarfism or non-carriers of any. I think that if we kept doing that (breeding carriers to non-carriers or carriers to carriers of OPPOSITE genes) that the dwarfism gene would diminish in the breed.

If only the tests were out though...

 

[Tremor]

Here's some punnet squares from the thread I posted.







Hopefully they're big enough to see them and the words.

 

[Tremor]

I'm going to admit this. I love threads like these.

I love the questions, the different backgrounds, stories, point of views, etc.

Keep it everybody. How else are we supposed to better the breed if we don't ask questions and discuss?

Just love this.

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

I also think if you're honest with yourself and really critique your own horses, you will automatically weed out those horses that have poor conformation, thus (probably) eliminating horses that may carry or minimally express the dwarf gene.

I think my smallest horse looks a little 'off' and I'm wondering if she is possibly dwarfish... I'm not going to breed her until I get someone to take a look at her... Her body is stocky, but I'm not fond of stocky horses to begin with, so don't know if my own prejudice is showing through... When I look at a horse, I visually create a box (square, not rectangular) around the horse. Hip to withers, withers down to the ground just behind the front hooves, then front hooves to back hooves and then back up to the hip... I want a horse that is 'square' (in addition to other conformation qualities).

Nikki (LTD's Fashionique - you can see her complete pedigree on All Breed Pedigree) just doesn't look square to me... Her dam is a bit stocky now, but was AMHR 2004 Top Ten Amateur Halter Sr. Mare, Under (5th) and a daughter of LTD's Magic Man and her sire is AMHR 2004 Reserve National Champion Amateur Halter, Jr. Stallions, Under and is an Magic Man grandson. She also goes back to Samples several times... So, she's got excellent breeding out the wazoo, but according to John Eberth, nearly all of our bloodlines have dwarfism somewhere in their backgrounds...

Oh, you can see a pic of her on LTDs website... In that pic, she looks square, so maybe she is just pudgy now. lol!

Kari

 

[misty'smom]

Last spring I went to see my Misty for the first time, she was 10 days old. The breeder had a little dwarf "Josie" in the same paddock, she was 1 month older than Misty. Well of course I fell in love with Misty and put a deposit on her. My daughter not knowing anything about horses or dwarfs said "Oh Mom why don't you get that one! Look how little she is!!" So many people may have had that same thought thinking "mini = the smaller the better" so education is paramount on this issue!!!!! We visited the 2 fillies about 2x a week all summer!! YES, I fell in love with Josie, she is so sweet! I did my research about dwarfs and Josie had minimal issues so Yes she came home with Misty!! She will have a forever home with us as a Pet and Companion for Misty!! When people ask about her small size I explain about her being a dwarf and that it was genetic problem in her breeding.

Here are a few pictures of my sweet little Josie!!!

 

[MyMiniGal]

Awe, Josie is cute! I think I would of brought her home too.

 

[misty'smom]

What ideas or ways could we as mini horse owners educate others about the difference between a Miniature horse and a Dwarf. I think there are many first time owners out there that think "that very little miniature horse" is the one for them. As far as breeding the dwarf I would hope that no one every does this but that is not the case as we all know. People need to be aware of these breeders passing their horses off as very small or I have the smallest horses in the world is not what a true mini is and that these dwarfs can have many health issues!!!!

Any ideas??