Driving Stakes Champions, Halter Grand Champions

[CLC Stables]

So we have a lot of people wanting to add in an amatuer 1/2 or aote type division, but we all know that we cannot add much more to the already too large group of classes at these shows, especially the National show.

One thing I have been thinking about and have been thinking about it for a few years, is WHY do we need to split the Driving Stakes classes? Do we really need a 30 and under stake, a 30-32 stake and a 32-34 stake? I know everyone will say well the under 30 can't compete against the 34" horse. And you are right. HOWEVER, they do at every show that is offered. No where but the National show is the split stakes classes offered. So why are we doing that? We can still keep the split classes themselves, but the when it comes to the Stake, it all goes in to one, the UNDER, and the OVER.

We do that for the Halter grands. WE don't offer a under 30" Grand, etc etc, we make them compete up the level to the Grand Championship.

I really feel that there is not much WOW left in a Stakes Win at the Nationals. If some of the classes had been combined at the Nationals there would have been 10 in the classes, rather than 1 in one class. 3 in another, then 6 in another.

This is just my opinion. But it is something to think about.

 

[squeaky]

I agree with you. It always felt a little strange to me that there were so many driving divisions offered in the stakes classes, while the halter grands were under and over. it would help speed things up on the last day of the show that is for sure.

Amanda

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I sort of agree with you. However I think we should still keep the 30" and under division. Those horses cannot move like your 34" driving horse. Even tho they still move very pretty they just can't do it.

 

[MountainMeadows]

Personally, I would like to see the "Stakes" class require that your horse win either a Ch or Res in order to be able to compete -- yeah, yeah, I know that is like AMHA, but truly, pretty much any horse can go into Stakes as long as it shows in a couple of other driving classes -- where is the "big win" with that -- to me - Stakes/Grand - should really showcase the top of the top, not just anyone with $50 to throw down.

Better run, I think this one might light a fire

Stac

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Personally, I would like to see the "Stakes" class require that your horse win either a Ch or Res in order to be able to compete -- yeah, yeah, I know that is like AMHA, but truly, pretty much any horse can go into Stakes as long as it shows in a couple of other driving classes -- where is the "big win" with that -- to me - Stakes/Grand - should really showcase the top of the top, not just anyone with $50 to throw down.

Better run, I think this one might light a fire

Stac

Don't run I think many will agree with you and I'm one of them.

 

[MountainMeadows]

Guess I would prefer to see a Grand class added and keep the Stakes as a Stakes class. I just think it is neat to see all the Ch & Res of each division go in and compete for the Grand - it really showcases the horses - much like the Halter Grand Champions get to showcase the Halter winners.

 

[tagalong]

Personally, I would like to see the "Stakes" class require that your horse win either a Ch or Res in order to be able to compete -- yeah, yeah, I know that is like AMHA, but truly, pretty much any horse can go into Stakes as long as it shows in a couple of other driving classes -- where is the "big win" with that -- to me - Stakes/Grand - should really showcase the top of the top, not just anyone with $50 to throw down.
Better run, I think this one might light a fire

I agree with Stacy - the Nationals seems to end on a whimper instead of a bang with those not well-attended Stakes classes that are supposedly Grand Championships. You do not have to have win anything to get in that class - you just have to pay up, Then how can a Grand Championship be awarded when being a champion is not required? That has never made sense to me and even though some of the champion driving horses do enter and win, it is not as prestigious as it could be. it seems like more of an afterthought that many do not bother with.

I know, I now, like Stacy says - that is how AMHA does it - a Grand Champion class for each driving division the way it is done in Halter plus High Point etc. - but it makes a lot more sense than the halfhearted jumble those stakes classes seem to be at times...

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Just because AMHA does it doesn't mean it isn't a good idea!

They do halter Grands too...does that mean we should switch to paying up for a halter stakes class just so AMHR isn't doing things the same way *gasp* as AMHA?

Honestly.

No, seriously, I agree 100% with Stacy and with this statement:

I agree with Stacy - the Nationals seems to end on a whimper instead of a bang with those not well-attended Stakes classes that are supposedly Grand Championships. You do not have to have win anything to get in that class - you just have to pay up, Then how can a Grand Championship be awarded when being a champion is not required? That has never made sense to me and even though some of the champion driving horses do enter and win, it is not as prestigious as it could be. it seems like more of an afterthought that many do not bother with.

If there weren't an issue with how long the show drags on I'd say to measure at the withers, raise the height limits to match, and break the driving divisions down into A (33" at the withers and under), B (33"-35"), and C (35"-39/40") with one true Championship class for each height division. Now I understand that this is even less realistic than adding a 2nd amateur category (something I am strongly in favor of) but as someone else pointed out, we've already added the Western category successfully and I'm sure if enough people wanted it we'd find a way.

I personally like the idea of having driving classes where the littlest horses can hold their own (not everyone owning a 30" mini wants to show AMHA) but am not sure the Stakes class is the time to make that division split.

Leia

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I'm with Stacy on this. They should win champion or reserve to compete in stakes. They way it currently is set up makes zero sense to me.

 

[Connie Ballard]

I agree 100% with you Stacy...I'd love to see it be the GRAND Champion...of all the champions...the Reserves and the Grands.

I would LOVE to see it be truly be the championship of driving. The AMHR driving horses are absolutly STUNNING...and I would love it see a TRUE reward for those 1st and 2nd place winners...to determine the ultimate TOP driving horse for the year. Talk about people staying to watch that class...it'd be something to see...versus just the people who had time to stay through Sunday to drive in the stake with a $50 entry fee. The way it is set up...there is no championship for driving horses...just a dollar race at the end.

Consider the HUGE amount of driving horses at this show...it is incredible the number of carts sitting around these barns...lets kick it up a notch, make the 'stake' into a championship of the most beautiful driving horses...the top performers....now that will add a new level of class to for the driving enthusiasts.

You can still have a $$ stake if you want...people enjoy competiting for some money...but make the ultimate driving award...be a championship class. I guarantee the 1st and 2nd place horses from all the classes would prefer winning a true title of National Grand Champion Country Pleasure vs just winning $375. Talk about bragging rights for someone who has a great horse and has worked so hard to get them to a level that wins....putting in your ad "National Grand Champion" sounds so much better than Stake winner. Consider this...why even stay for the stake classes as they are now...most of this years stakes only had 6-7 horses in them...you didnt have to win anything to enter the stake...so why not toss in $50 for a last chance for a ribbon.

I'd just like to see a celebration of the winners...the best of the best...like the halter horses have in their championship classes.

Note: Dont read this thinking I'm groaning about not getting to show my 1st/2nd horses in a championship...we barely got a ribbon in driving...lol...just saying I'd like to see the real champions compete to the grand level....it is nothing but fair they get the opportunity that halter horses get...championship classes.

 

[~Lisa~]

Ok so I guess I am confused.. how would making only the winners increase the amount of horses in the class? If you look at the results page the same horses were being picked over and over for the driving in their divsion so if you limit it and people leave for whatever reason you increase the odds of only having one or two horses in the class

 

[tagalong]

Just because AMHA does it doesn't mean it isn't a good idea! They do halter Grands too...does that mean we should switch to paying up for a halter stakes class just so AMHR isn't doing things the same way *gasp* as AMHA? Honestly.

I just made the reference to AMHA for all those who think AMHR is the be all and end all and never does anything wrong - and that AMHA does almost everything wrong, There are a lot of those types on this forum that cannot stand the idea that AMHA might actually be doing something that AMHR should be doing *GASP* - like photos on registration papers (AMHR finally got on board with that - YAY!) and DNA and Grand Champion driiving horses for each division... set up like Halter Grands are.

It definitely IS a good idea.

Ok so I guess I am confused.. how would making only the winners increase the amount of horses in the class? If you look at the results page the same horses were being picked over and over for the driving in their divsion so if you limit it and people leave for whatever reason you increase the odds of only having one or two horses in the class

You would not have to pay to be in a Grand Champion class - you simply qualify for it. It would have more prestige than a Stakes class that anyone can pay to enter.... and if the GRAND CHAMPION driving classes wound everything up on Saturday night (the whole show starting a day earlier or having some classes in another arena) - then everyone would have Sunday to pack up. The way it is now, many of the winning driving horses and trainers do not even bother with the stakes classes and everyone is drifting away to head home...

The show could end with a BANG! instead of a whimper.

I also found it a bit sad that the multiple hitch classes often wound up showing waaay after 11 p.m. and many missed those excellent entries. Perhaps they could be scheduled to start each evening's classes instead of being shuffled back into the wee hours...

Just a few suggestions that might actually, you know, be good ideas...

 

[MountainMeadows]

Lisa,

Any horse that wins a Ch or Res in their respective division would be elegible for the GRAND class - youth, ammy, open, all of them, mares, stallions, geldings, all heights of the Over Div & all heights of the Under division, so theoretically there could be a whole bunch of horses in the GRAND class -- YES, it would add 8 more classes to the show (Roadster, Country, Western & Pleasure for both Under and Over) -- BUT, the win would really mean something.

I have been fortunate enough to have won the GRAND title 2X at AMHA in Open Single Pleasure Driving - and I can honestly tell you that it means WAAAAYYYY more to me than winning GRAND in Halter or winning a Stakes driving class at Nationals -- not to sound snobby at all - but the HORSE that wins GRAND in driving is truly a STELLAR horse -- they can go in all the classes to qualify and win and win and win, BUT if in the GRAND class they bobble - they can lose! ! ! What can be more fair than that -- the horse that DESERVES to win actually DOES ! ! As we all know, it is not always that way in halter - and a lot of times it is not that way in driving, but I can guarantee you that a judge that placed a horse that was not going well over a class of horses that DID go well would have a lot of explaining to do -- So for me -- winning the GRAND is driving is THE top of the mountain.

Like I said, probably not what a lot of people want to hear, just kind of how I feel.

Stacy

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Well from what I heard from my thread we need to start making a incentive on adding championship classes instead of having so many stakes or so many driving classes. If no one sees a Stake win hold much value then thats just plain sad and something has to change that. The driving classes are popular now and I hate to see so much lil come out of it.

 

[Hal & Deb Bryant]

This is the First stakes we ever won at Nationals, please don't belittle it!!!! Hal Bryant

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

This is the First stakes we ever won at Nationals, please don't belittle it!!!! Hal Bryant

I agree... we were Reserve this year in WCP 32-34" and I was Reserve in 2007 in WCP Over, and I was,and still am, proud of my Stakes wins. It is not a push over class... you still need to work at it to win.

 

[~Lisa~]

well not to be rude but I think it is rude to say this class means less then any other one.

I am not saying show me a AMHA class with 60+ driving horses if not then my mares past wins means more then yours.

Guess what a stakes win does mean a lot to most who get it just as a 10th means a lot to those who get that placing. IF stakes is not your thing and AMHA show titles are -show there.. I am not saying things can not change but I do think less then 48 hours after a National show and after many have won stakes classes to come here and say they really do not mean much they are not as important as AMHA classes and truly do not mean you have a winning horse is well hurtful and mean. I realize many do not mean it to sound that way and would not want to hurt others feelings but that is how it comes off right now.

I appreciate the ideas but hate the fact that these threads take away from those that have won these classes.

As for the truly better competition well guess what that 3rd place horse could be a much better horse then the 1st place horse or the 2nd place horse all it takes is one quick second to have a placing go down.

To assume horse number 3 or even 4th or 5th going in the stakes class is just a anybody with 50 bucks can be quite insulting

 

[tagalong]

well not to be rude but I think it is rude to say this class means less then this one.

No one was really saying that - it is just that the stakes classes are claimed to be the Grand Champion classes - even though many of the champions are not participating and it is not set up that way as in Halter or even AMHA driving grand championships. It is a class you pay more $$$ to enter, not a Grand Championship class that your Championship entitles you to. There could still be stakes classes that you work hard to win and deserve that ribbon and that cash prize - and a Grand Championship driving class in each division as well... instead of now having stakes classes with low entries on the last day of the show...

 

[CLC Stables]

Lisa and All,

My post was NOT meant to take away from the Stakes wins that those have already earned. I had a previous horse that took a Reserve National Stakes Championship and I was on cloud nine. There were about 15 in the stakes class, now this year there were not that many in that same height division stake.

I brought this idea to be constructive, not end up pitting everyone against each other, and back to the AMHA/AMHR deal.

I just see us wanting an AOTE, or Amatuer 1 and 2, and truthfully somewhere we are going to need to cut some classes back or combine at the Nationals.

I just see that we can combine those stakes classes (split every two inches in Tulsa) back to just 1 stakes class for each division Over and Under. We show that way all year. That is just what i was getting at.

ROB

 

[~Lisa~]

Rob I know you never meant to make anyone feel bad I know that was never your intention