Discussion Topic: Hardshipping

[nightflight]

Recently I’ve been getting a lot of calls from locals who are new to minis with questions about hardshipping horses. Two of these calls really made me think....

Case #1: Yearling stallion that was sold without papers. I know for a fact the horse was AMHA registered. The horse was originally sold with a co-ownership agreement that obviously didn’t work out. The papers for the horse were sold to people who thought they were buying the horse, the co-owner didn’t sell the horse.... so on and so forth…So, the horse was sold without papers. Now the new owners come along. The horse was originally AMHA registered. Does this mean it deserves to be hardshipped back into the AMHA? Is this fair to the owners who never received payment for the horse? What about the people who thought they were buying the horse? How many horses do you think have been hardshipped that they themselves, or their parents have not been paid for? Is it ethical for you to buy (from a third party) and hardship a horse that lost its papers because the original owner/breeder was never paid?

Case #2: Mare was sold without registration papers. I know the original owners had pulled the papers on the mare because she produced a dwarf. It was their decision to be responsible breeders and to take a loss on the mare. Skip ahead two owners and I get a call about hardshipping. I know that we all have certain pedigrees we avoid… do you stop to think that unpapered horses could have had their papers pulled for a reason? Is it ethical for the new owner to hardship a horse he knows had his papers pulled just for this reason? What if he didn’t know that the horse was ever registered? Would that make a difference?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Case one, I think I would go ahead and hardship if it were financially worth it. Case Two is exactly why we should be able to stamp "Not for Breeding" on our papers and microchip our horses. This mare was sold at a fraction of her worth as a pet, to safeguard future generations. It is verging on dishonest to buy such an animal (knowingly) and hardship it back into the gene pool.

 

[Happy Valley]

How subjective can you be? Can you make a decision on a case by case basis, or does it have to be a hard and fast rule?

If there are rules, then they should be followed. If there is some proof that a horse has been registered to begin with, could the parties involved not backtrack, pay the original party, and get some sort of amended transfer?

I would not allow a horse that was genetically inferior to be put back into the registry. We are supposed to be here to improve the breed.

Edited to add last comment.

 

[nightflight]

How subjective can you be? Can you make a decision on a case by case basis, or does it have to be a hard and fast rule?

If there are rules, then they should be followed. If there is some proof that a horse has been registered to begin with, could the parties involved not backtrack, pay the original party, and get some sort of amended transfer?

Hi Happy Valley,

As far as the buyer of this stallion is concerned, he bought the horse. I'm sure other parties could backtrack, but knowing the history and the people involved on the animal I'm sure hardshipping looks like a more attractive option at this point!

I would love to hear what everything thinks in general AND about these two situations!

 

[Minimor]

I'd agree with rabbitsfizz.

Case 1--as I understand it, current owner paid money out for this horse. I'm a bit lost as to who thought what when on this deal, but regardless--current owner paid their money for this horse. Whether they thought they were buying an unregistered horse, or if they thought they were getting a registered horse & now find that the papers are not available...they are willing to spend extra money for the hardshipping. It is their right to apply for hardshipping IMO. As I understand it, once the horse is hardshipped into AMHA, they will have a horse with papers that show unknown parentage? So even if the horse is extremely well bred, they won't have paper proof of that. (Or can they DNA the horse & have his papers show his parentage even if owner of sire/dam don't agree? Sorry, not up on AMHA that much!)

Case 2--the thing about selling a mare without papers is, once she leaves your possession you have no control over what future owners may choose to do with her. The only way to ensure she will not be bred is to have her spayed, which few people do. The current owner now wishes to hardship her back into the registry, and sounds like this owner does know why the mare has no papers now? Unfortunately, that is still that owner's right. About all you can do is make sure the person understands why the mare's papers were pulled. If they know she has produced a dwarf but still want to hardship her in order to get papers so that they can use her for breeding, well....the thing is, not everyone believes that a dwarf producer should be culled from breeding. While some choose to stop breeding any horse which has produced a dwarf, others believe it is okay to rebreed the horse, just not back to the same animal that produced the dwarf. So, if person A chooses to continue breeding a dwarf producer, then it's little different if person A chooses to hardship a known dwarf producer back into the registry. Some won't agree with Person A doing this--and I'm in no way saying I do agree with this--but if A wants to pay out the money for this, they're within their rights to do so. It just depends which way you look at breeding carriers of the dwarf gene if you believe this to be right or wrong.

Does it make a difference if the current owner has no idea that the horse was previously registered? Well, if there was a lovely little horse in someone's back yard, & that horse could be bought for a song, how many people would think twice about hardshipping it, assuming they had the money to hardship it & wanted to have registration papers? Anyone here that didn't know the horse would probably look at a photo of the animal & tell the buyer how lucky they were to find such a deal, it's a lovely horse, worth the hardshipping for sure, so go for it!

:

 

[horsehug]

About Case 2, I think if someone wants to make sure a mare is not bred again they need to either keep the mare for life, or have her spayed. Once someone else buys her, she is now Theirs and they should have the right to breed her if their beliefs dictate that she is a good mare to breed. Not all horses who have produced a dwarf are considered "genetically inferior" by many.

We have just had several threads on this topic about breeding horses who have previously produced a dwarf in the last week.

It was refreshing to read the views on this question, of Little King Farm who are behind the research for genetic testing for dwarfism ......... when Robin of LKF wrote this just a few days ago:

We, at LKF, are not an advocate of eliminating the miniatures that test positive for the dwarf gene from the breeding pool. That would have more of a negative effect on the breed as it is now. Entire farms and breeding programs would go out of business if you took away their main breeding stallion or majority of their mares because they carry a gene that can or cannot be passed on to future foals. A basic understanding of how genes are passed must be considered before jumping to final conclusion and elimination of these horses that carry the dwarf gene. We need to treat this genetic trait the same as the HYPP in Quarter Horses by identifying the gene/s and guide breeding programs accordingly. A horse that carries the dwarf gene may also carry traits that are so necessary for the refinement and structure of proportion and conformation for the future of the miniature horse.
We can imagine that people are afraid that their entire herd, years of work and money could be wiped out if this gene was identified and forced to be eliminated from the gene pool. It has been estimated by many experienced breeders that as many as 50-75% of minis carry this gene. If these were all eliminated - what would we breed? There would not be a large enough gene pool to substantiate the miniature horse economy and registries as they are now. It is much more benefical for all of the breeders, associations and businesses involved to learn how to live with the genetic profile these miniatures have and work within those parameters towards a common goal. In time, a gene like dwarfism can be minimalized and in long term eliminated thru genetic selection and knowledged breeding. The idea is not to scare people away, but to recognize the situation and look toward a future that is benefical for both horse and breeder.

Susan O.

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

in general I am in favor of having hardshipping. The fees are high, particularly for stallions so if the horse is worth it I say go ahead. The bunch that I have hardshipped were all imported from another country or carried other registration (like Falabella papers only) and it was worth it to hardship them.

On case number 2 I'm with Susan.

on case 1, if the current owner thinks the horse is worth it, I think they should go ahead and hardship.

Tammie

 

[minimule]

Hey Colleen!

On your case #1.......were the sire/dam DNA'd? If so, couldn't the horse in question be DNA'd and get the papers back as if lost? I've never had to deal with this kind of thing but I'm just wondering if this could be done.

It just seems silly to have to hardship a horse that had papers at one point especially if the horse's history is known. I personally would call AMHA and find out what they suggest on it. Maybe they have a better solution.

 

[Songcatcher]

Hey Colleen!

On your case #1.......were the sire/dam DNA'd? If so, couldn't the horse in question be DNA'd and get the papers back as if lost? I've never had to deal with this kind of thing but I'm just wondering if this could be done.

It just seems silly to have to hardship a horse that had papers at one point especially if the horse's history is known. I personally would call AMHA and find out what they suggest on it. Maybe they have a better solution.

That would work only if the person whose name the horse was registered in were trying to get duplicate papers.

I purchased an AMHA registered mare with the intention of getting her "R" registered from her "A" papers. I sent in the paperwork and AMHR sent it back saying she was already registered. Well, make a long story short, the original papers had been lost and the original owner was very nice to write a letter saying they had been lost and filling out a transfer. I sent them in with the appropriate fees and got a duplicate certificate in my name. This could not have been done without the consent of the original owner, which obviously not happen in the case described earlier.