Dead foals

[pepperhill]

I was hoping folks could brain storm and come up with ideas on why some miniature foals don't get out of the bag when born? I am referring to the perfectly normal foals, that are kicking inside the mom, right up to the point that they are born..... and suffocate. I know the way to prevent it from happening is to be there at the birthings. My issue is why does it happen in the first place?

No one around here seems to have any ideas why this happens except fescue in the hay has been mentioned. Does it have to be fescue? Are there other variables involved? Do certain vaccines cause it? Feeding alfalfa? Is it genetic? Certain de-wormers?

I just wonder if anyone out there has any thoughts on this. Thanks

 

[targetsmom]

I don't have much experience with foaling, but all of it has been with dead foals. Last year we had a mare abort at 9 months with a horrible dystocia from a breech presentation. She ended up at Tufts Veterinary Hospital where they were pretty sure it was from Rhino/herpes and they warned me to keep her away from our other bred mare. Of course the mares had been together up until then and there really wasn't any way to seprate them. When the other mare did not abort right away, we thought we were safe. But although she carried to term, she managed to foal while my back was turned (quite literally) and the foal did not get out of the sack. She also delivered the placenta with the foal. In my research about this (after kicking myself thoroughly) I read in one of the foaling books that Rhino can do this. Rhino does not always cause abortions- the mare can carry to term and the foal can be weak/compromised or even born dead, so it does not get out of the sack. I don't know for sure if that is what happened, but I do know I am giving the Pneumabort shots this year.

So short answer, it appears that Rhino can cause this.

 

[Genie]

It happens more with miniatures than the full sized horse in my opinion.

Fescue isn't an issue in our area and my thought is that some bags obviously just don't tear as easliy.

It may be genetics, since our horses are handled, fed and treated in a similar manner.

The big horses seem to stand fairly soon after birthing and maybe that tears the bag.

 

[Karin - NaKar Miniatures]

There can be several reasons for the foal not getting out of the sac. In the 14 years that I have been breeding mini's I have found that the most common reasons are:

1. The mare is so exhausted from labor that she doesn't get up and just lays there.

2. The foal is still actually asleep when born and thus, doesn't move to break the sac.

3. The thickness of the sac can be a problem. Especially with really tiny foals. I have been told that the sac thickness is just like a full size horse. I have only dealt with minis, so I don't know if this is correct.

That is one of the reasons why it is so important to be there when the mare foals. A mare can foal several times without assistance or being watched, but there is always that ONE time that something can go wrong. If you go out and just happen to "find" a foal you better count yourself lucky!

 

[Maxi'sMinis]

I have only had 2 mini foals, but with both I had to rip the bag open. It was very tough and slippery. I had on exam gloves but had to grasp the bag with a clean dry towel to rip it open.

I have delivered a number of species were I needed to rip open the bag, dogs, cats, an orpaned deer that I saw the mother get hit by a car, even mice.

The biggies I have seen deliver were almost like and ejection, very forceful, some of the mares even stood up during the delivery and boy was that a drop to the ground. We had to hold the baby up from falling all the way to the ground. This always broke the membrane.

I think with the minis it is much less forceful almost needing help on most births to pass through the hips so you don't get that force against the membrane.

The smaller animals the membranes were all tough and slippery and the animal would have died without assistance. I think it is a universal issue with lots of species that don't have the size and weight behind them to break through the membrane on their own.

Just my experience.

 

[Genie]

There can be several reasons for the foal not getting out of the sac. In the 14 years that I have been breeding mini's I have found that the most common reasons are:
1. The mare is so exhausted from labor that she doesn't get up and just lays there.

2. The foal is still actually asleep when born and thus, doesn't move to break the sac.

3. The thickness of the sac can be a problem. Especially with really tiny foals. I have been told that the sac thickness is just like a full size horse. I have only dealt with minis, so I don't know if this is correct.

That is one of the reasons why it is so important to be there when the mare foals. A mare can foal several times without assistance or being watched, but there is always that ONE time that something can go wrong. If you go out and just happen to "find" a foal you better count yourself lucky!

All very good reasons and makes sense. I think the mare being exhausted and not getting up quickly is likely the most common occurrence since that was what I noticed most of all, that they usually stay down much longer than the full sized horse.

 

[Versatility Farm & Training]

I have experience foaling minis and full size horses, and from that I know the sac is the same thickness for both, putting the minis at a disadvantage. The foals have a tough time getting out of the sack themselves, personally I think anytime a mini foal gets out of the sack without human help it is due to the mother, not the foal. Minis are also bred to be more domesticated than the fullsize breeds, so they have less "wild instinct". Most full size mares will stand right away (which breaks the sack) and inspect the foal and begin eating the sack to "destroy the evidence" if there was a preditor around. Minis are so domesticated that they don't have that instict as often, more if there are other horses around they feel they need to protect their foal from. But from my experience the minis tend ot lay there for a long time before getting up the first time, and sometimes when they do get up they still are nto far enough from the ground to rip the sack open unless she walks away.

 

[Erica]

All good points mentioned.....

I have also wondered or observed that of course most of these mini mares have personalities were they are big pets, more passive and spoiled.....like this last mare I foaled was a show mare who was up being pampered for over two years, she foaled without a hitch, and of course I break the sack as soon as I see feet and help the mares out just because I'm there, but the sack wasn't overly thick or anything, I think the foal could have gotten out of it, but the mare just laid there for at least 30 mins, foal was already up and walking around.

While a few mares I have are much more flightly and worriesome, ones that might not have had as much human interaction earlier on in life and they are ones that foal and jump up within just a matter of a minute. Of course I prefer my mares to stay down and let all that blood pass through the cord, but these mares that jump up I think have more of the natural midset as if they were out fending for themselves like out in the wild they have to get up and take care of their foal.....where some of our "babies" when they foal are more like oh mom is here to help....

edited: Looks like I was posting the same time as the above, but same thing I was trying to say

 

[Jill]

I agree with a lot of what's been said and would add that while I do not yet have "a lot" of foaling experience, when my first mini foal (my first newborn baby anything) was born in 2001, I could not get over how thick and tough the sack seemed and it really made an impression on me. I felt from my very first foaling experience that if I'd not been RIGHT there as I was, that filly would not have made it out of the sack. She made it, oh boy... she now is an 8yo trick trained mare and "big" pet to a woman not far from our place

:yes

 

[hobbyhorse23]

My understanding is that the placenta in a mini mare is the same thickness as her larger counterparts. In a full-sized horse the foal stretches the sack out in its last months of growth so it is thinner and easy to break but the mini foal never gets big enough to stretch it.

Leia

 

[Riverdance]

Yes, it seems that Mini foal sacks are the same thickness as full size horses. Having raised both, I too notice that the full size horses will get up right after the foal is born and sniff and lick it. The Mini mares tend to continue to lie down. Which is what I feel is the main reason for foals being left in their sacks.

When a mare foals outside with other mares around, the other mares tend to come over and sniff around, forcing the new mom to get up and break the sack. We coddle them so much, that they are inside for days (if not weeks) before they foal. Under cameras and alarm systems. Right now I am watching two. The weather has been nasty since Monday, so these two mares have been inside since Sunday night. They are bored, as am I, but I do not dare let them out to possibly foal in the mud and water. :arg! This could go on for days still!

What I notice more though, is foals getting hung up inside their dams with the Minis. Espcecially maiden mares and smaller mares.

 

[funnybunny]

Proportionately, the sacks are harder for the minis to break. The sacks might be the same size as the biggies, but a biggier has more strength due to a proportionately bigger size and size of legs/hooves.

Which can kick harder and with more strength - a 120 lb. big foal or a 25 lb. mini?

Also the mini mares often seem to rest a while before they get up, while big mares frequently hop right up.

So previous things that have been said are, I believe, true.

That is why it is so important to try to BE THERE when a mini is born. I can't stand to think of losing one, but sometimes, if they are real early or we don't know they are ready, it just happens and we are not prepared.

 

[Doobie]

I had been told that corn makes the sac thicker...

Not sure if its true or not but I dont feed corn just to be sure!

 

[Candice]

Interesting topic. Some great points have been made, but one thing that everyone is leaving out is the fact that this is a "man made" breed and gravity just isn't working with the miniature horse the way it is with the larger breeds. The mares are smaller and more compact and the foals don't have the weight so less force and pressure and that sac just isn't going to pop open.

I also think the mares (most) are accustomed to assistance and expect it, whether we're physically present or not. They're not dumb. They learn. The problems happen when they expect us to be there and we're not. I think that the mares with the more aloof personalities have more "wild instinct", as a few have pointed out, and I think this correlates with pain tolerance. That is not to say the mare is not experiencing pain, childbirth (foaling) is painful, but she may be less reluctant to let it show and will better tend to her foal. Just a thought.

One observation here last year is that the mare does not need to jump to her feet to tend to her foal. I had a mare reel around while still laying down and clean her foal. I already had the sac broken and was cleaning his nostrils. She would have had him out of there had I not been there. She has that aloof personality and would be thrilled to have nothing more to do with people. I think its a whole combination of factors.

 

[SSMFarm]

OK understand that I am no expert at foaling by no means. I have one under camera now that seems close to me that may be still standing there infoal this time next month. I wanted to bring up the "other" side of the story just to see what ya'll think. I have a good friend that was around when Dell Tera Farm was started. He is an "old timer" in the mini world. While some things that he considers just nature I say are a bit extreme but he has said that a lot times in the fields older mares will assist younger mares with foaling. He says that some have foals that aren't as active to tear sac. Some sacs seem to be a bit tougher etc. Which almost makes sense..we say all the time that they are herd animals. They almost seem to have a sense about what is going on in their "community".What do ya'll think of this? Well, I had an experience that it actually happened. I realize that this may be a one in a million but I thought that I would take the time to share. I had a mare with no bag and she was so small (in width) I had no idea she was anywhere close to foaling. I got up one morning to find her still laying down...I must have just missed foaling by 10-15 minutes. The foal was also laying down and had been a red bag. There was another mare there with them both. Could the mare who gave birth actually have foaled and busted the sac in time for the foal to still be alive? Or was the other mare there to assist in some way or "hoof" thru the sac to save the foal once it was on the ground? I don't know? I hope this isn't rambling and is on topic just thought that I would share the experience. I would be interested to know what ya'll think.

 

[Minimor]

No one around here seems to have any ideas why this happens except fescue in the hay has been mentioned. Does it have to be fescue? Are there other variables involved? Do certain vaccines cause it? Feeding alfalfa? Is it genetic? Certain de-wormers?

Well, I would say it's not anything to do with feeding alfalfa--we feed alfalfa, and in most cases I've noticed that the sacs here have been gossamer thin--I do peel them off the foal's nose right away, but all it takes is a touch and the sac splits open. If the foal is going to break it open on its own, all it takes is a flip of the little nose, and its through the sac.

The only time we would have had a problem was the year we had the mineral deficiency in our horses. The one foal was born & I ripped the sac off--I wouldn't say the sac was so very thick, but not as thin as I would consider normal--but the biggest problem was the foal was very very weak and had no "try" in her. Had I not been there I'm quite sure she wouldn't have gotten out of the sac & I'd have found her dead...

That same year another breeder here had a number of losses due to the foals not getting out of the sac. She had them on camera & would run for the barn, but still didn't have time to save them--she was just crushed. However, she also had a number of others that were dystocias and had leg issues, and her vet finally determined that she--like us--had an iodine deficiency. It's believed that is why some of the foals were dying in the sac--they were very weak and quite probably would not have survived even if she had been right there on the spot as they came out. After the losses of the early foals she started her mares on a mineral supplement that was high in iodine, and after a couple of weeks she was no longer losing foals. The mineral supplement made a huge difference.

In cattle it's a known fact that if a producer is having calves die in the sac, it's due to a mineral deficiency. (which mineral(s) I don't know) With family and friends that raise beef cattle, I know more than one producer that has had a problem with this--and in every case when the cows have been given a particular mineral mix it has put an end to the problem of the calves not getting out of the sac. If minerals can make such a difference in cattle I wouldn't be surprised to learn that minerals also make a difference in horses--especially after our own experience in 2004.

 

[Tony]

When I explain the problem I ask people to imagine blowing up a balloon. If you blow it up just a little bit, then try to break it by poking it with a finger. It won't break. Then blow it up as far as you dare without popping it. Then poke it with your finger and it will easily pop. Think of the amniotic sack as a balloon, it gets stretched very thin over a big horse foal, but is hardly inflated around a miniature foal.

Simplistic, but it usually makes the point.

 

[Candice]

Tony, I like it, Short, simple and to the point!!

 

[MyBarakah]

Minimor...... I think that is a VERY good comment.... I really wounder if that's doesn't have something to do with a mineral defficiency..... that seems to make the most sense out of most of it......

 

[Jean_B]

I noticed I had more issues with thick sacs when I had a higher proportion of corn in my feed. So now I make sure that the feed has a VERY low corn content. Top dressing with mineral supplements has also made a difference - but you really MUST have your soil conditions tested before applying minerals willy nilly. If you buy your hay - have your hay tested. Just contact your county's Ag Extension office for info on how to do this.

Also - I have to work, and I'm here alone. So if I think a mare is going to foal during the day - I put her in a paddock with just one other mare and there are horses in other paddocks on both sides. This encourages the new momma to get to her feet immediately in order to protect her new baby. Can't tell you how many times I've come home from work to find a brand new, dry and fluffy baby running around .... and have NEVER lost one using this method.