counter bending

[cathyjo76]

I have a big issue with my gelding this year with counter bending. When tracking to the right,(clockwise)

He has his head turned to the left with falling in on his shoulder to the right. I am getting myself confused while driving trying to correct it.

I did see the Muffy Seaton video about bending the driving horse. Should I just work in lines on the ground. The more I try and fix it the more confused I get. HELP

 

[MiLo Minis]

A little more information would have been really helpful here but I am going to assume this is a horse that is fairly new to driving and you can correct me if he is not.

All horses are naturally crooked. They tend to move with their bodies curved to the right and carry most of their weight on the left side of their body. We ask them to get straight or bend in order to make their job easier and less stressful on them when we put them under saddle or in a carriage. When they are first hitched it seems like they turn just fine but they aren't truly bending around the corner. You don't mention he has this problem going to the left so I can assume he is bending more easily to that side - his naturally stronger side. The good news about your horse is that he is not terribly crooked because he tries to negotiate his right turns by looking to the left and throwing his weight onto his right shoulder which means he is stretching that right side so you are on the right track - you just need to persevere and keep working. It is almost always harder to get them to bend to the right because, as it is their weaker side, it is harder for them to get their weight over that right hind leg so they throw their head to the left and shift their weight to the right shoulder. This isn't good because it stresses the front legs and can eventually cause injury. It is also difficult to drive a straight line with a crooked horse.

You can go back to long lining with the reins through your tugs but usually when you go back to the cart you will likely find he is still having difficulty because of the weight of the cart which throws his balance off so you may as well just keep him in the cart and work on bending him there.

You need to work on bending in both directions equally. Don't start stressing turns to the right just because that seems to be the side that causes trouble. You will use your inside rein to ask for the bend with a gentle pulsing action and your outside rein to control the amount of bend by holding or giving as necessary and your whip on the inside of his barrel to help him curve his body around the arc of a turn. A nice half halt coming into each turn will also help to set him back on his haunches and get his weight off his front end.

I start out at a walk with big ovals and large circles and look for the horse to relax and stretch into the bit. I just want to get him straight to begin with and don't expect a lot of bend. Then I work on lots of circles and serpentines with big wide loops. As he begins to pick up the bend you can ask for smaller figures and then progress to the trot but that takes time. He may get tense on the turns, stiffen and throw his head to the side so you either need to make your figures larger or try starting them where he isn't anticipating a turn such as in the middle of the arena or 3/4 of the way down the side rather than right at the corner.

Good luck and let us know how he comes along!

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Very informative. This is something specific I can also work on with my horse.

 

[RhineStone]

While Muffy Seaton has addressed the driving world with the bending book and video, remember that is ONE way to accomplish the process. While it works, I found her technique too "complicated" for me. There was too much to look at while also trying to drive the horse and avoid walls and fences.

We really started working "hard" on bending last year, and my lessons with Mary Ruth Marks taught me that the same action can be achieved through what Lori describes above without all the "timing" that Muffy requires. The outside rein is HUGE. To go left, don't pull on the left rein and "push" the right. Hold the right while you pull or tweak the left.

Have patience. It took about 3 weeks before Alax really "got it". (He was probably developing his muscles and balance during that time.) It drove me CRAZY for those three weeks, but once he had it, it was quite a relief. I also found that when I was stressed, the bending wasn't as good either, like during a show. When I had a class that I wasn't as stressed out about, Alax bent better. (Mike's Hard Lemonade is now part of my packing list for the shows! A swig or two before the class calms my nerves. And prayer helps, too

)

Myrna

 

[MiLo Minis]

Spirals are another good exercise for working on bend. Start with a very large circle at a good strong trot and make each pass a bit smaller and a bit slower then increase each pass in size and speed till you are back on the original track. This is best left till your horse is understanding bend though. I use these exercises - circles, serpentines and spirals - when warming up for dressage or breed shows.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Have patience. It took about 3 weeks before Alax really "got it". (He was probably developing his muscles and balance during that time.) It drove me CRAZY for those three weeks, but once he had it, it was quite a relief. I also found that when I was stressed, the bending wasn't as good either, like during a show. When I had a class that I wasn't as stressed out about, Alax bent better. (Mike's Hard Lemonade is now part of my packing list for the shows! A swig or two before the class calms my nerves. And prayer helps, too

)
Myrna

It isn't just you Myrna! At a show your horse is also stressed and excited - new surroundings, new horses, all kinds of things to steal his attention. Of course his head comes up and he is more interested in looking around then dropping his nose and concentrating on his business - all your hard work goes out the window when you arrive at a show with a green horse

I can have my tried and true warmed up and ready to go within half an hour to 40 mins while it takes my greenies a good hour or more of warm up to get them relaxed, on the bit and thinking about bending and it may never happen at their first show particularly breed shows where you seldom have time to get in a proper warmup. There is absolutely no point in asking for bend until you can get them relaxed and round over their back - the best you can do is get them straightish.

When driving in an arena your hands are almost never quiet but the movements should be barely perceptible to someone watching carefully. You may have to be a bit more aggressive with your hands to start in training though.

 

[targetsmom]

This was a major part of a driving clinic I had with Jeff Morse last month - see http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=115642 an earlier driving forum thread on the 3/21 clinic. It includes short videos, which may be difficult to hear, but the point is half halts on the outside rein and don't worry if the horse starts out on a very tight circle. You can see how our circle gets larger in (I think) the second video.

 

[cathyjo76]

Myrna, I was considering taking wine with me, cause when I did the ADTs in the winter, I was sweating in the freezing cold!!!! Mikes sounds better!

Rogan is 5 and started driving at 3. He is very immature in his mind. He is not "seasoned"-every day is a new day for him!!!. I notice in the spring a slight bit of counterbending with both of my driving horses.

But this year, since we drove most of Jan-March, he seems worse. And it does seem that the more I try and correct it, the tighter the circle comes.

The Muffy video I watched twice, ran to the barn to try it, couldn't get it down, so ran home watched it again, and ran back to the barn.

Thanks for the tips-I'll try and loosen myself up first and then work on it.

I definitely will keep you updated.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Myrna, I was considering taking wine with me, cause when I did the ADTs in the winter, I was sweating in the freezing cold!!!! Mikes sounds better!Rogan is 5 and started driving at 3. He is very immature in his mind. He is not "seasoned"-every day is a new day for him!!!. I notice in the spring a slight bit of counterbending with both of my driving horses.

But this year, since we drove most of Jan-March, he seems worse. And it does seem that the more I try and correct it, the tighter the circle comes.

The Muffy video I watched twice, ran to the barn to try it, couldn't get it down, so ran home watched it again, and ran back to the barn.

Thanks for the tips-I'll try and loosen myself up first and then work on it.

I definitely will keep you updated.

It sounds like he is trying for you and has been driving long enough now to start to develop the muscles he needs that is why you are noticing it more. There always comes that point in time with every horse that is being worked correctly. If he is falling in on the circle you are not giving him quite enough support on your outside rein, you somtimes need to be quite firm. It takes about 2 years of good, consistant work to get a horse moving correctly in harness.

The other possibility that I won't rule out, even though it does sound like it is just he is beginning to think about bend, is that he may have an injury. If you find that he continues to fall in, even though you are working him consistantly and often enough with correct aids, I would see a chiropractor. Won't hurt either way and could be a big help.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I worked on this with Dusty yesterday. Keeping the proper tension on the correct rein really makes a difference. It was hard at first to get him to do a large circle, but finally he relaxed enough to do them.

Then I harnessed my older horse and practiced with him. Haven't driven him much since I've been working with Dusty.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Girls, girls, girls....how many times have I told you not to drink and drive??

Honestly!

Counterbending is a pain in the patootie. It's so easy to get into an endless cycle of "the horse falls in so you pull harder on the outside rein so the horse bends even more to the outside so you pull even more...." STOP! You've got to remember that the trick to bending isn't controlling the nose, it's controlling the wither. You need to be working with the inside rein to push that wither to the outside and the nose will swing into line all by itself.

I could not get a grip on this issue when I first drove Kody and it had me in tears more than once. I knew it had to be something I was doing and I knew there had to be a way to fix it, but every clinician I asked watched me and said I was doing fine. When you can routinely see the white of the horse's outside eye while going straight down the rail, I think maybe you have a problem.

In the end I found a trainer who took one look and said "Honey, the horse is not counter-bending, you are!" She worked me through it by telling me to forget completely about where the horse was going for awhile and work only on the bend. I released both reins, started from scratch with my hands positioned equally and then asked for the bend by half-halting on the inside rein. If he drifted towards the inside of the circle or even spun all the way around it didn't matter, all I was to worry about was getting the bend. Releasing those dual worries of both bending and navigating enabled me to get a feel for what I was supposed to be doing and how that outside rein functioned and pretty soon we were able to do both. Don't be afraid to concentrate on one thing for awhile! That's what practice is for- you don't have to do it all perfectly all at once. For me it was this huge mental block and the cure lay in letting go of how I thought things should be working and just doing it. I was overthinking and stressing out and that stress bottled me up even more until my poor horse and I were battling for no reason. As soon as I relaxed and drove forward evenly, so did he.

The fact that both your horses are counter-bending right now suggests it's something similar for you.

Leia

 

[MiLo Minis]

"forget completely about where the horse was going for awhile and work only on the bend. I released both reins, started from scratch with my hands positioned equally and then asked for the bend by half-halting on the inside rein. If he drifted towards the inside of the circle or even spun all the way around it didn't matter, all I was to worry about was getting the bend."

I am going to say I completely disagree with this in a lot of circumstances. With some horses that are terribly crooked if you were to take this tack they could easily fall right down! This may have been a solution to your particular problem between you and your horse but it would not always work. Even if the horse doesn't necessarily fall down you can scare him badly by allowing him to careen in without control which will only make matters worse as he will become tense. I would say if I arrived at this point and could not achieve even a minor bend with relaxation I would take a step back and work on relaxation and longitudinal bend some more. I believe in steering the horse through the bend and giving him the comfort of my direction and support through the reins and I work at this in walk at first before progressing to trot until the horse can go through a bend not necessarily bent but at least without fear, relaxed and willing to try.

 

[RhineStone]

In response to both Leia's and Lori's posts, is the horse straightening out when you "throw him away" and go straight instead of turning? That might indicate whether or not it is the driver or the horses.

Last night, I had Alax on the trail. He was bending to the right a lot. I let go of him completely and he straightened out. That told me that I was holding him too much on that right rein. So, I repositioned my body and took him back up again and he was straight.

According to the German Training Scale, before you can have straightness and bending, you need Rhythm and Regularity, Relaxation, Contact (Acceptance of the bit), Impulsion, and THEN straightness and bending. Maybe these need to be worked on first.

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

In response to both Leia's and Lori's posts, is the horse straightening out when you "throw him away" and go straight instead of turning? That might indicate whether or not it is the driver or the horses.

YES. That's why my trainer had me work that way- because the problem was me, as I stated, and not the horse as in Lori's concerns. I didn't throw away the outside rein during that exercise either, I just started with my reins even instead of my left hand cocked way back trying to drag the horse to the outside and then I stopped worrying about following the path of a perfectly round dressage circle. Maybe I didn't make that clear enough when I posted...I didn't stop supporting the horse or working on longitudinal flexion or anything, I just stopped obsessing about where we were going so much as how we got there.

This was to fix me, not the horse. If the horse were so crooked that he'd fall over I'd be taking his butt back to groundwork!

In our case giving up my micro-management and just being, Zen-fashion, calmed both of us down and relaxed the horse so he could stretch into the bit and give me the bend instead of having to fight me constantly as I pulled him to the outside. He got to trot forward into the contact without fuss and the bend came almost naturally after a few egg-shaped circles. I know many people who have the same problem and thought Cathy might be having one of those moments so I wanted to share my experience. I've had the pleasure of meeting her at the National Drive so it's always nice to compare notes with friends!

Leia

 

[cathyjo76]

Thanks Leia, somehow I think "OVERTHINKING" and "OVERREACTING" is my problem...that's why i thought drinking might help....it helped my golf game...but I hate golf so I quit drinking..

I did not have a good drive again today...tried to focus on cones but it was so nice we drove outside so it was the first time over grass with no check....he had other things on his mind.

I came home and drove the gelding Harley that I took to the ND. He is so light and good and easy to drive!!!!!! and I haven't driven him since the ND...just 15-20 minutes of walk/trot around the house.

Unfortunately even at his peak of showing a few years ago he had no stamina-but that is another story.

Thanks Lori for the spiral idea...Think when I can work outside arena ( it is a cutting barn so cows come first!) I will try that, the indoor is too small. Rogan is a complete challenge...he has alot of talent, bad bad manners and knows I'm not the lead mare where he is concerned.

I have a schooling CDE in May with another ADT late May with Andy Marcoux..If I just want to have a lovely dressage test, I should take Harley. That way I could concentrate on my own issues. But if I want to have some fun ( and frustration) I should take Rogan.

I am fairly new at all this compared to alot of you, but one thing I learned about horse training is it alot like making chocolate chip cookies.... There are some basic rules ( like using chocolate chips)

but there are alot of variations and there is no one right way. I appreciate all the hints, tips, etc....

 

[Sandee]

Thanks Leia, somehow I think "OVERTHINKING" and "OVERREACTING" is my problem...that's why i thought drinking might help....it helped my golf game...but I hate golf so I quit drinking..

...............

....

Love the mental picture! I used to tell the story of riding in Ireland and how we'd stop for lunch (yep, tie the horses at a hitch rail). Have a sandwich and a few pints and then we could ride even better.

 

[Peggy Porter]

And even if you didn't ride better, after a few pints who cares??? VBG!!

 

[RhineStone]

OK, OK! I said that I had a SWIG before I went into a class, not a pint!

If I had a whole pint, I would be sloshed and my driving skills would go out the window! Especially when I don't eat breakfast or lunch at shows because of nerves! If we have a few shows in a row, I start to look more like Leia and can fit in my skinny pants! Then I'm a really cheap date!

Back to the regularly scheduled "counter bending" topic....

BTW, if manners are your issue, bending is very secondary. I give you personal permission to "spank" your horse.

Alax came along MUCH faster after we determined what decisions he was making that he shouldn't. I was just on Jeff Morse's website yesterday, and re-came across his Effective Communication with the Driving Horse presentation. It helped me a TON last year when he gave it at the Midwest Horse Fair. http://www.green.meads.com/Downloads.html

Myrna

 

[cathyjo76]

Thanks Myrna, listening to conditioning the driving horse and perusing the internet. Got it bookmarked for later and printing the exercises!!!!!

I decided to take a break with him for a short time and work with Harley.....I'm trying too hard and getting nowhere. Need to go back to basics.

BTW I passed on a deal for a well bred Classic gelding with a champion driving sire. Incentive fund sustained etc. I will probably kick myself over and over but I just have too much on my plate, and I don't think I will be doing alot of breed shows. Not fair for the quality he is.

Thanks, all, and will enjoy reading Jeff Morse tonite.