Was at an auction yesterday and just had a question pop in my head? Knew someone here would know the answer. They sold several mares that were "A" registered only that measured over 34". If you breed them, can their foals still be registered "A", even though the dam is over height? Provided the foal stays under.
Broodmare over "A" papers
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Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
The rule is you are supposed to turn in the papers of any AMHA horse that exceeds 34". Of course, that's not what everyone does though.
Any horse that exceeds the height limitations of 34" is supposed to have the A papers voided. However, without the A papers, those horses cannot be 'hardshipped' into R. They would have to send in a copy of the A papers, to R and apply for R papers.
Looks like you observed another incidence demonstrating that the rule that AMHA horses cannot 'legally' be over 34" is WIDELY violated and/or ignored,and in virtually every aspect of the industry. As the OP saw at the auction mentioned, these violations are increasingly OPEN(go to just about any show....or look at 'for sale' ads that state that some horse still HAS A papers, but that HAS OUTGROWN them. Yes, the A papers ARE needed to 'hardship' into R; if you have a horse you feel is going to go over for A, why not go ahead and hardship it YOURSELF, THEN offer it for sale with 'legal' papers? (If it then DIDN'T actually 'grow over', it is a more valuable double-registered horse--and YOU know you've acted responsibly and with complete honesty. )I have known VERY few miniatures where it was not clearly evident, from babyhood, that they were going to, or VERY likely to, go 'over' for AMHA; if you bred and/or raised a horse, you should be the one aware of this, and you can act accordingly and in a timely manner. I suppose I must add that this is "just my opinion".
There ARE those who follow the rules, who turn in the papers of their horses that have grown over(in either registry, BTW)--but it is my opinion that those folks are pretty few and far between. I have immense admiration for those who DO adhere strictly to the rules, but IMO, they are nowadays a minority.
Flame away, if you must--I don't need a flamesuit; my old hide is tough.
Margo
There ARE those who follow the rules, who turn in the papers of their horses that have grown over(in either registry, BTW)--but it is my opinion that those folks are pretty few and far between. I have immense admiration for those who DO adhere strictly to the rules, but IMO, they are nowadays a minority.
Flame away, if you must--I don't need a flamesuit; my old hide is tough.
Margo
I agree with Margo, but I figured if they were dumped at an auction, then the previous owner is certainly not going to bother with registering them R either. At least the new owners can do so, though I agree, not all would be honest enough to!! It happens...
Okay this is funny this was asked because I was going to ask a similar question. What do you do if
you are the buyer who buys one of these over horses who comes with all the paperwork for AMHA? If you have a signed transfer with everything filled in but for the current height which the seller kindly left you to fill in can you just send the papers back to AMHA with a note saying the horse measures over? I am currently re-selling a horse I bought earlier this year that came with A papers which I don't plan on passing along to the next owners, but I don't know what to do with the actual papers as I never transfered them into my name. Luckily this horse already has R papers. The really sad thing is I bought this horse as an A show horse (never showed the horse) and I've been to enough shows/sales to know that if I really stretched out this 35 + horse enough and did a little creative clipping, I too could measure the horse under.
you are the buyer who buys one of these over horses who comes with all the paperwork for AMHA? If you have a signed transfer with everything filled in but for the current height which the seller kindly left you to fill in can you just send the papers back to AMHA with a note saying the horse measures over? I am currently re-selling a horse I bought earlier this year that came with A papers which I don't plan on passing along to the next owners, but I don't know what to do with the actual papers as I never transfered them into my name. Luckily this horse already has R papers. The really sad thing is I bought this horse as an A show horse (never showed the horse) and I've been to enough shows/sales to know that if I really stretched out this 35 + horse enough and did a little creative clipping, I too could measure the horse under.
I am sure there is something in the rulebook- I believe the papers would be returned to AMHA with a letter to advise them that the horse is oversized. Then just keep the R papers.
Just editing here with a couple of thoughts...
I know someone who cancelled the A papers on their mare because they just 'knew' the horse was over. They had no way to measure it correctly, and just assumed, so never brought the mare permanent. Turns out the mare was NOT oversized and they had to pay the late fees, etc... to then bring the mare permanent on her A papers and what all else you have to go through to get it done.
I have also purchased horses that I was told were, for example 33, to find out they were 32.25 or shorter than the previous owner thought. The feet were long, the horse was not standing correctly to measure and no, I do not mean to trim the feet til they're sore and stretch them out. I measure mine just standing square on a level concrete surface.
I have also had horses at shows vary a good half inch either way depending on if they were tense, and what was going on when measured and who was measuring, so...... ????
I had someone tell me that they 'eyeballed' them with a yard stick and the horse was over... so it really can vary depending on the circumstances!
Just editing here with a couple of thoughts...
I know someone who cancelled the A papers on their mare because they just 'knew' the horse was over. They had no way to measure it correctly, and just assumed, so never brought the mare permanent. Turns out the mare was NOT oversized and they had to pay the late fees, etc... to then bring the mare permanent on her A papers and what all else you have to go through to get it done.
I have also purchased horses that I was told were, for example 33, to find out they were 32.25 or shorter than the previous owner thought. The feet were long, the horse was not standing correctly to measure and no, I do not mean to trim the feet til they're sore and stretch them out. I measure mine just standing square on a level concrete surface.
I have also had horses at shows vary a good half inch either way depending on if they were tense, and what was going on when measured and who was measuring, so...... ????
I had someone tell me that they 'eyeballed' them with a yard stick and the horse was over... so it really can vary depending on the circumstances!
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Songcatcher
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I couldn't agree more. Lots of valid points have been brought up. I must admit that when I was very new in Minis that I sold one with A papers that was over. I bought her as part of a package deal and the former owner gave me "A" papers. I passed her on the same way. I would not do it the same way if I had it to do over again. The new owner did understand up front that the mare was over and she never transfered the A papers into her name.
That said, measuring can vary greatly. I sold one mare to an AMHA judge. She measured the mare from both sides and got her 1/2 inch different. There was no obvious dip in the concrete.
This is one of the reasons I like my mares to be under 32. Gives me plenty of leeway.
stormy
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Just a littl ecomment on measuring. I showed a B gelding for many years, he was measured by various stewards at differant shows and came in from 34" to 35.5", never the same height twice in the same year. This was a mature gelding measured by approved stewards. Unless I actually witness the measuring I tend to consider it an estimation not an accurate representation of the horses height.
sfmini
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One thought on those over mares, don't write them off without checking to make sure they aren't foundation oversized. There are some older horses out there who were allowed to keep their papers and they were designated as such on their papers. I don't remember the dates for that, but I imagine some of them are still out there.
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