Bad farriers

[NyborFarm]

Here we have both a big horse and a mini and we use the same ferrier for them. We use a barefoot specialist. Its on the expensive side (close to $150 for two horses), but the feet get done wonderfully each time. Our big horse had been shod with the foot to fit the shoe, one of the worst things ever! So we switched to the barefoot specialist and she found an absess growing in the big mares one hoof! We were so glad when we switched. She's also really good with the mini. She sits down next to him and does his feet. She takes her time and has even used hoof angles and everything on both of them. Here's a barefoot preformance website for more info. Natural Hoofcare

 

[Fred]

A "Barefoot Technician" is a marketing ploy. They are technically farriers, look up the definition. Not all horses can go barefoot and the ones I know have been slamming traditional farriers. Why anyone would pay more for marketing is beyone me. IMHO. I have been a professional farrier for 19 years now and while not all farriers are the same there are many good ones out there. There probably are good "barefoot technicians" too. Personally anyone who is willing to learn and CONTINUE to learn about trimming I am more than willing to help them out as are many other farriers. Linda B Flame away

 

[babygoose]

Here is another really good website. I watched Gene on RFD-TV when he was on Dennis Reis's program. So much of what he said made so much sense. I ordered the trimming video and wished there was a trimmer trained by Gene in my area. A lot of the farriers in my area are self taught cowboys, which can be good or bad. Finally I decided I would e-mail Gene and see how close the nearest Natural Balance Trimmer was. I was getting desperate to have someone do a good job on my CDE competitor draft cross. Was I ever overjoyed to find out there is actually a NB trimmer in my local area! I was so suprised. I had him out and he does a wonderful job. He is among the first group that is actually been "certified" by Gene so I know he didn't go to just one clinic and claim to know it all. He is wonderful and patient with the horses, including the mini. He will actually sit down on the ground to work on her feet. And he's not too bad on the eye either!

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The thing I like about the NB trimming is it works with how the individual foot needs to be trimmed.

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/

Edited to add: My farrier doesn't make claims that all horses can go barefoot. Obviously some conditions and horses will require shoes. But a surprising number of them actually can go barefoot if trimmed right. He started out going to regular farrier school, etc. Some barefoot trimmers are just a load of BS. But I think if you can find one that does it right, has the right "training", etc. they can do alot of good. It is the same with everything there are good ones and bad ones. I think if people have access to a good barefoot trimmer, they should give it a try though.

 

[Nichcole]

I'm very big fan of the barefoot triming for both my big and my little horse. My husband and I first heard about the barefoot trimming from Clintion Anderson.. All of his horses are now bare foot except for the horse that are reiners which are only shoed behind b/c of the sliding stops. We have had so many different farriers and with every single one we were not able to ride our big horse or drive out little one for a couple days w/ the bare foot techniqnice we can trim them and take them right out on the rock and not have a problem at all . Another great thing about it is they don't have the cracks or chips anymore.. Most of our friends have no switched to bare foot b/c of the gigantic improvment they have seen in our horses feet and stanima.

 

[cast]

For my two cents worth I have to back Fred up as she is a good farrier and I know this because she does my horses which consist of large and mini's but yes you pay for the trim and if you don't like the work then say something. Some of these farriers will try to get away with anything and don't stop for a minute to charge you for less. I was once told that your farrier is only as good as you direct them so speak up, its your pets or as in my family our family members. :aktion033:

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[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

A "Barefoot Technician" is a marketing ploy. They are technically farriers, look up the definition. Not all horses can go barefoot and the ones I know have been slamming traditional farriers. Why anyone would pay more for marketing is beyone me. IMHO. I have been a professional farrier for 19 years now and while not all farriers are the same there are many good ones out there. There probably are good "barefoot technicians" too. Personally anyone who is willing to learn and CONTINUE to learn about trimming I am more than willing to help them out as are many other farriers. Linda B Flame away

Linda this is not meant to be a flame but I beg to differ with the defination of farrier: farrier

1562, from M.Fr. ferrier "blacksmith," from L. ferrarius "of iron," also "blacksmith," from ferrum "iron," possibly of Sem. origin, via Etruscan. In M.L., ferrus also meant "a horseshoe."

While a farrier may be adept at barefoot trims a barefoot trimmer is definately no farrier.

Farriers tend as a group to earn the ire of many horse owners by not showing up, treating horses badly and a whole host of other problems. It makes it hard for good farriers to have to contend with bretheren who do these kind of things and I'm sorry the good ones must have to deal with that kind of fallout. Most of the people I know who are trimmers only had to learn out of desperation because they might have had a great farrier who left the area, got hurt or otherwise left the business because it's a difficult profession. A good farrier is very hard to find in many areas and I know there are excellent ones out there but they are getting as scarce as hen's teeth. If one prefers to keep their horses barefoot and can, I think it's the most healthy choice. Minis are known for their excellent feet and with good reason, they have not been subject to having steel nailed to them for many years and have avoided many of the problems of riding horses have from being shod.

If you have ever been to a well known farrier's forum they treat non farriers worse than crap so is it any wonder we horse owners are turning enmasse to barefooters who at least treat us with a modicom of respect? Farriers, are in all actuality, are biting the hand that feeds them. They are scared and with good reason because we are finally getting alternatives instead of having to just cope with it.

Not all horses can go barefoot and when that occurs it's mostly because they have been shod for so many years they can't go without. Those that can, it's a blessing. My farrier after many years is doing less and less shoeing and makes more doing trims now. She is also willing to teach those who want to learn, the proper trim, not a pasture trim that most traditional farriers give, but a trim that supports the foot correctly.

I am sure you have an excellent reputation as a farrier and my rant is definatley not about people like you but those who have done a disservice as a whole to a noble profession.

 

[Fred]

Triggy, I do get what you are saying. My experience with the "barefoot technicians" in this area is not good. They treat the farriers like crap and anyone who uses a farrier like crap. In fact I was at a barn this morning and the guy would not even acknowledge I existed. I do know there are bad farriers but there are also owners out there that give some of the farriers reason to act the way they do. I did say some not all. I personally have had to NOT return calls on some people because they would not take NO for an answer. [My husband bless his heart tried to get me to return the call on one in particular and I told him no I wouldn't. Well he picked up the call and now has since learned his lesson on that score! The woman drove him nuts. I have been given bad checks, had people "forget" appointments, or cancel just when I get there. Also try shoeing or trimming in knee deep mud. I have gotten to the point that now if there is no bug spray for the horse I am going to charge an extra $5! I have spent so much on bug spray this year its not funny. I also love people whose horses have NO MANNERS and they think I'm supposed to train them. Then you have people who feed while you have a horse on ties shoeing. I hate horses that back up on crossties. I have clients that think all horses should be crosstied. Crossties can be very dangerous. I have a friend that had a screw eye whack her on the back of the head when the idiot horse pulled the tie loose. It could have fractured her skull. Mind you I'm not saying all clients do this but a lot more do it than you think. Before I became a farrier one of my best friends could never get a farrier and yet I never had a problem getting one. She is a great person and she "thinks" her horses are well behaved. They aren't. I had to hold them so many times for the farrier it was not funny. I have trimmed horses for over 35 years. I have been a professional farrier for 19. Barefoot can be great and I personally do prefer it but there are some horses out there due to breeding and the terrain they are ridden on that just can't hack it without shoes. Barefoot technician is a marketing ploy the same as a lot of the "new" things in farriery. Linda B

Oh and by the way the trim they use is what we as farriers call a pasture trim. A lot of farriers being lazy just yank shoes and don't round the foot that's what causes the cracking. Linda B

 

[Minimor]

Good post, Linda!

We had a couple good farriers, many years ago. They knew how to do a good job of shoeing, and they could do a proper barefoot trim on those horses that were not shod. The one had to give up the work because of a back injury. The 2nd one gave up farriery to take a "real" job with regular hours, good pay & a company car. The fellow he turned his clients over to was worse than useless. We got the guy once & he made such a hash of the horses we never got him back. Worst trimming job I ever saw. We tried a couple other farriers at different times, but were never satisfied. One guy did okay the first time; next time he showed up extremely hung over & bad tempered, and that time the job he did was very poor. I already knew how to do trimming, but thought it was easier on my back to pay someone else to do the work. Wrong. Oh yeah, then there was the guy who trimmed a few times for us; the last time he was here it was a really hot day & he complained non stop about how hard it was to trim feet; eeesh, I said I didn't need to pay to listen to that! one fellow that called himself a certified farrier had actually taken a one-week course out west, and thought that his completion certificate made him a farrier, qualified to do remedial work as well as regular trimming. Yikes. And the fellow whose nippers & rasp were so dull I had to give him mine to use.... I gave up after that & started doing all of the trimming myself. It's more work for me, but much cheaper & a lot less aggravating!

A neighbor of mine had a training horse in this fall, & the owner normally uses the local barefoot trimmer. Trimmer came over to the neighbor's to trim this one horse and the same afternoon trimmed a couple horses for another client just a couple miles down the road. The bill for the one horse at my neighbor's was $105. That is outrageous. Even the horse's owner was horrified, because usually she gets this trimmer to come & do 4 horses, & her bill for the 4 is usually around $200.

I do sympathize with farriers that have to deal with spoiled, difficult horses that have never been taught any manners by their owners. Our horses always stood still, we'd take them in the barn where it was shaded & fly sprayed; the horse would get sprayed, we'd always provide refreshments for the farrier--cold drink in summer, hot coffee or tea in winter.

 

[Fred]

Good post too Minimor! It happens on both sides. I learned how to trim partially due to a Scotsman grandfather who was too cheap to pay a farrier. I respect anyone who wants to learn how to trim feet and I have personally taught plenty of people. Being a horse owner I hate the price gouging. $45 to $50 is overkill. I charge depending on the wear and tear on the truck and my body and gas. Shoeing is more because inventory is involved. My husband and friends constantly give me lectures on how I should charge more. I charge what I feel is a fair price that I would pay. There are good and bad farriers just as there are good and bad owners. Oh and don't you love the owner that says after you have done the horse "could you please bill me I'm a little short right now." I honestly wouldn't mind before I did the work but after to me thats a slap in the face. Linda B

 

[cast]

Personal note to Fred, You have been doing my horses for a while and I am so happy with the work you do for us. But in your replys calm down please, I would not like to loose you to a tizzy fit,(haha). There is so much truth in what you say about customers but remember you do have a lot that love your work and the in talks we have while your at our places. Hopefully there are more of us good customers then bad.

 

[Fred]

Cast I have far far more good customers than bad. In fact at present I have NO bad customers. They have been weeded out. These are things that have happened to both my husband and I in the past. This is just to give a perspective of what farriers can and do go up against. None of my present customers should take offense as they are great clients, but these things [and others] have happened. It just annoys me when its always the farriers fault when sometimes its not. Linda B

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

I am sure you have an excellent reputation as a farrier and my rant is definatley not about people like you but those who have done a disservice as a whole to a noble profession.

Linda I felt the need to reitterate what I said above. I know there are excellent farriers but they are not in abudance in my part of the country. When I lived in CA I never had a bit of trouble finding a good one and keeping them. Here in the Seattle area most of the good ones are booked solid and when you are lucky enough to find a good one you bend over backwards to keep them. After several who let me down in one way or another I found my present farrier by calling a local farrier school who recommended someone who had apprenticed with the owner long before the school opened. I had to get on her wait list but when an opening came up I jumped on it and haven't regretted for one minute. If she is dealing with a problem horse that is taking more time than expected she calls to let me know and decide if we should reschedule or if I can wait for her. She adores the minis, most farriers will not deal with them at all, and has been very willing to work with my problem child Alfie who is a total nutcase from past abuse. Last time she trimmed him it was without sedation and has made his feet normal in record time.

I'm a good account and always have been because early on I asked what was important to a farrier. Believe me, I know horse people and many are the absolute pitts and make life miserable for farriers and trimmers alike. Farriers have good reason to weed them out. But I go out of my way to treat them with the utmost respect and consider their needs and am fed up when the vast majority I've encountered don't or won't consider mine. Which is very simple; show up or call me if they can't make it or will be late, do a proficient job and don't hurt my horse.

I have my horses clean, not only their feet but their bodies, and ready to be worked on, provide a good place to work that is uncluttered and well lighted, pay in cash and like Minimor, provide water, soda or coffee depending on the weather. I hold my horses for them and would never think of them having to train or disipline when they act up. All horses have their days no matter how well usually mannered for their owners. Some just don't like the farrier because of bad past experiences as well.

What our farriers here like to call a barefoot trim is actually a pasture trim. Actually, I wouldn't want one done to my horse even if on stall rest. They pull the shoes, scalp the soles and frogs like they would to reshoe. Of course a horse is going to be sore and tender under those conditions which may be part of the reason some farriers are so down on the trimmers. Maybe it's not working for them when they do it so they condemn the practice and those who promote it across the board. A barefoot trim is not just rasping the edges to prevent cracking, they know to leave the callus on the sole preserve the right cupping and arch at the bars and pretty much leave those nice fat healthy frogs alone. Not at all how a traditional farrier trims in these parts so we have to turn to specialists who have more experience in this method. There is room in this world for both sides and I hope to see the day when all can put down their egos and fighting words and finally be willing to learn from each other. The horses can only benefit.

 

[Fred]

Triggy I understand there are bad farriers and as for the egos believe me I do know. What I am saying though about the "barefoot technicians" around here is the attitude. I have had several customers complain that the "barefoot technician" told them they were BAD to have put shoes on the horse and what a terrible job the farriers do. I had one woman who was in tears because the "barefoot technician" told her she was a horrible person to put shoes on her horse! I did not say it is everywhere but I do resent the overpricing whether it be farrier or technician. PROPER TRIMMING is the basis for all farrier work. Where I live we grow rocks, hard New England granite to be exact. If the horse is not properly trimmed out here trust me within a day they would be lame and cracked and split. A pasture trim is the proper term for a correct barefoot trim. What I was trying to point out is that sometimes owners [and I am one also] should look to see what might cause a farrier to not want to do their horses. I have to deal with both sides on a daily basis and I've had to deal with owners, vets and other farriers. As a farrier I know my profession has its faults I do not belong to the AFA and refuse to be certified. If you look at the certiification test it DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR THE COMFORT AND FUNCTION OF THE HORSE! Why should I have to forge weld a bar shoe to a pattern when I can buy one and modify it. I can make shoes but why should I when I can buy them easier. If I shod a horse according to certification standards the shoes would fall off before they left the barn. I do not think my clients would be very happy about that. Linda B

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

I do know some extremist barefoot trimmers and wouldn't let them touch a hair on any of my horses. An attitude like that stinks and those types don't do anything to promote any kind of respect among farriers and unfortunately some owners are too dumb to know the difference. I don't agree that it's always one way or the other because horses are individuals and can't be treated in cookie cutter fasion. But I think like farriers, it's hard to find good ones as well. There will always be a need for farriers especially in the areas of performance and the show ring. However, our day to day riding horses that don't get hard use do manage pretty well being barefoot but those are fast becoming the bread and butter of a farriers regular client load as more and more people are turning to leaving their horses unshod. I decided about a year ago that when I retire I'm going to do trimming professionally. I am choosing to specialize in trims only and leave shoeing needs to qualified farriers. I absolutely would never say to never shoe a horse, gosh how stupid can they be? I have no desire, as you, to be certifed in any particular association that promotes some idea or another that isn't good for the horse under any circumstances. Arrgh, I just cringe when I hear someone proudly proclaiming to be Strasser certifed. Don't agree with that methodology at all!

My QH mare and I went on what was supposed to be a 2 hour trail ride on a relatively easy trail last summer. It ended up being almost 5 hours on one of the most difficult trails I've ever been on, nothing but rocks and gravel. Even some of of the shod horses were pretty bruised up by days end but Daisy only had some minor chipping of the walls and was none the worse for wear. So she did prove to me that a foot properly maintained with good trimming can be as hardy as a shod foot. Too bad I couldn't claim the same, I couldn't sit down for about a week!

 

[FoRebel]

I have an excellent farrier that went to school in Missouri for it. He's been really nice with my minis, foals, long-ears, and larger horses. He didn't even draw blood on my shetland mare that's a total spaz about her feet being touched or my new 2 year old gelding that's a bit shy about humans at the moment (he also thinks that he's a mini at 16.2 hh!!!!) My last farrier drew blood on almost all of my horses, so he got gone real quick. But I mostly do the minis myself and leave the foals, long-ears and the larger horses for the farrier. I will have my farrier trim our minis twice a year just to be sure that they're getting clip professionally to be sure that their feet are still healthy.

My advice to anyone that asks me is to look in the local papers and call a farrier or 2 or 3 from the paper. Ask 3 questions.... 1. Have you trimmed minis before, 2. If yes, do you get on your knees so their legs are comfortable for trimming, and 3. References of other mini people!!! I have found that any good farrier will have references of mini people for you if they really want your business/are good.

Hope that helps!

 

[Jean_B]

I was beginning to think there was such a thing as a "good" farrier here in Arkansas. I went through a number of them...and they came with recommendations!!!!! One even CRIPPLED my future driving mare. He jerked her leg up so high (hoof was LEVEL WITH THE TOP OF HER HIP !!!) that she locked up in the stifle and her back needs adjusting. I dang near shot the SOB when he did that. Needless to say....I sent him packing and darn near planted my boot up his lazy A@@. Since she is young, hopefully she will heal.

I had about given up hope and was actually looking into farrier schools (there is a pretty good one in Oklahoma). And then I found my DREAM farrier (not bad to look at either :new_shocked: but he's WAY too young for me, darn it

: ). He gets down on his knees (once he learned my horses were trained to stand!!) and really really takes his time. Angles are perfect, takes the right amount of heel, and LIKES the horses. Hmmmm.....maybe I should introduce him to my daughter??

So many farriers think they are good if they get them done quickly. WRONG !!! Those should be sent packing.

By the way -- You are NOT going to find a good farrier by looking at ads in the local paper. Good farriers are booked solid and are turning away new clients. The only reason I was able to get the one that I really like is because a trainer with a good-sized stable down here (big horses) also happens to be originally from Wisconsin and he twisted the guy's arm (yeah, sometimes we Yankees can be a formidable bunch). And I had to promise that I would have him come here every 7 weeks on a particular day, at a particular time, and I had to have a minimum of 10 horses each time he comes here (not a problem -- will usually have between 12 and 15 each time). And you know what.....HE'S WORTH IT !!

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

You will never be happy with the horse's hooves until you learn to do them yourself.

I rather the horse stay sound

They have years and years of experience and schooling, I have none. Why do I think I can do better? Its far too easy to screw it up, so I leave it to the professions who actually know what they are doing. I use my judgement to find a good local person to take care of it for me.

I have the horse trimmed in such a way that helps him. If that means shoes, then they get shoes. If that means just a trim, they get that. I too have found barefoot specialists to be rude and condescending to anyone who disagrees with the idea that ALL horses can and should go barefoot, and that there is nothing no shoes can't fix.

Of course minis have good feet. Is that BECAUSE they've never had shoes before, or because they don't need the the shoes because they have good feet? Chicken or the egg? I think its because they don't need the shoes, not because they haven't been ruined by shoes. Riding horses have more demands on their feet because of the extra weight and all. Driving horses don't generally need shoes unless they wear their hooves down too fast.

 

[susanne]

Nathhan,

In an ideal world, yours would be the right answer.

I'm fortunate to live in a fairly populous area, but even so, it took a long time to find a good farrier willing to do minis. Many on this forum live in rural areas, where their choices are few, and far too many of these are frauds masquerading as "certified farriers."

I greatly respect the training involved in becoming a GOOD farrier -- they are well worth every penny they charge. But if my only choices were those who did crappy work or yanked my horse's legs out of their sockets, you can bet I'd learn to do it myself (although my back would beg to differ).

Ideals are great, but you have to adapt to the real world.

 

[Fred]

This might give all of you something to think on but I know for a fact a LOT of farriers do not own horses some have no interest in owning them and a lot only just shoe horses. They receive minimal training in horse handling at farrier schools. This is not unique I am sure it is probably the same with the barefoot technicians. I also know the the college near me that has an equine studies program is sadly lacking in true horsemanship skills. I had to show a TRAINER that graduated from that particular college how to use a lip chain on a very nasty horse. Linda B

 

[love_casper]

We would like to see some pictures of what some mini hoofs should be trimmed like please. Please some pics PLEASE !

i have not read the rest of this thread, but here are a few.

front foot

back foot

the last one is sort of a bad angle, but i think the first one's kinda cute!