Attaching side check question

[Margo_C-T]

A bit OT, but Myrna, your photo leads me to ask what kind of bit that is? Is it a butterfly? It seems to have quite a 'tall' perch, relatively speaking...almost appears as if the mouthpiece 'slides'up and down, but I'm guessing that really ISN'T the case? Perhaps it is just the camera angle, but it piqued my curiousity!

Margo

 

[RhineStone]

It is a 4.5" Arch Butterfly. Yes, it has a tall "purchase" (the part above the mouthpiece), and it does slide up and down a little bit (I don't care for that part, but...) It is an English made bit that was given to me to try on Alax because he is such a "fussy" mouthed horse. So far, it is what he goes best in and I have tried A LOT of different bits on him. He CAN'T STAND a snaffle (direct rein) pull, and likes the curb action better. I think it is because he has fat lips and tongue and the snaffle pinches more. He would rather the bit rotate than pinch. I did have one judge that looked at his bit and said that it was too big, but then in the next breath said that he seemed to go well on it. The other thing he can't stand is the bit touching the sides of his face. That is why the 4.5 has worked better than the 4" low port Liverpool I used to drive him in. In a lot of ways, that bit "breaks the rules" for bitting a mini (mouthpiece too wide, should only use a snaffle on a mini, etc.) but it is what he is happy in so I'm not going to fight it.

Myrna

 

[Margo_C-T]

I hear you, and agree 100%! I'd say that the width would be a bit of a 'saving grace' in helping prevent pinching, given the way the bit is made...and I am absolutely ALL FOR using what makes the HORSE happy, comfortable, and willing to work!

Margo

 

[Sue_C.]

It is a 4.5" Arch Butterfly. Yes, it has a tall "purchase" (the part above the mouthpiece), and it does slide up and down a little bit (I don't care for that part, but...) It is an English made bit that was given to me to try on Alax because he is such a "fussy" mouthed horse. So far, it is what he goes best in and I have tried A LOT of different bits on him. He CAN'T STAND a snaffle (direct rein) pull, and likes the curb action better. I think it is because he has fat lips and tongue and the snaffle pinches more. He would rather the bit rotate than pinch. I did have one judge that looked at his bit and said that it was too big, but then in the next breath said that he seemed to go well on it. The other thing he can't stand is the bit touching the sides of his face. That is why the 4.5 has worked better than the 4" low port Liverpool I used to drive him in. In a lot of ways, that bit "breaks the rules" for bitting a mini (mouthpiece too wide, should only use a snaffle on a mini, etc.) but it is what he is happy in so I'm not going to fight it.

Myrna

He sounds a lot like Crackers, the mare in my avatar...she was very-very difficult to bit as well. I finally ended up with a 4.50" single broken pinchless D-ring for her...much to large, much too heavy, and my most hated mouthpiece...but she was happy. After several years off from driving,spent as a broodmare, when I started her again, I tried a regular french link, but ended up with a 3.75" french link butterfly, and she loves it even better than her former "too large-too heavy" single joint...and now I am happy as well.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Sounds like the "perch" some of us have heard it called was a layman's shortening of "purchase!" I love figuring out word origins.

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

Sounds like the "perch" some of us have heard it called was a layman's shortening of "purchase!" I love figuring out word origins.

I had never heard of "perch" before Margo mentioned it, but I thought the same thing. Now if we can only figure out what "purchase" means.

At least "water hook" makes sense once you know the meaning, but it's not like you are buying only part of the bit!

Myrna

 

[Margo_C-T]

Well, I am 'winging' it a bit, not consulting a dictionary,but one of my college minors was English, and I'm reasonably sure that one meaning of 'purchase' is 'to have a grip, or hold, on something. That would fit, IMO, because the 'purchase' on a bit is where it is 'gripped by/attached to' the headstall, which is what keeps it on the horse's head. Make sense? Oh, and I wasn't really thinking about it, but feel I should have used the term 'purch', not 'perch', as a shorthand form of the name of the part.

Margo

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Leia, you can get a 'purchase' on a rope too. That is, a solid purchase is a firm hold or grip on the rope. So I expect 'purchase' is a word meaning 'hold,grip, attachment.

My apologies to the OP for going off topic. This has been a fascinating thread so far

-- and for the record I managed to fit both the headstall and the overcheck onto the top part of the ring on my bit like the original one shown.

Looks like I was typing while you were posting Margo

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Leia, you can get a 'purchase' on a rope too. That is, a solid purchase is a firm hold or grip on the rope. So I expect 'purchase' is a word meaning 'hold,grip, attachment.

Hey now, I knew what "purchase" meant!

Myrna's the one who wasn't sure. I think "grip" is one good meaning, but another is as in for your feet to find purchase, meaning traction or grip, which would fit in the sense that the purchase is the point of traction where leverage is made possible. When there is no bit purchase, there is no fixed point where the bit can pivot. The rings just spin on the headstall.

Leia

P.S.- I know where the "perch" thing came from- We all refer to that diagram on Estate Horse Supply's website of where the check goes on a Myler bit and he has that part labeled as the "perch." It'd be interesting to talk to Ken and see where he got the term!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Hey now, I knew what "purchase" meant!

Myrna's the one who wasn't sure.

Ooops, my mistake. I know I should double check things

 

[RhineStone]

Well, I am 'winging' it a bit, not consulting a dictionary,but one of my college minors was English, and I'm reasonably sure that one meaning of 'purchase' is 'to have a grip, or hold, on something. That would fit, IMO, because the 'purchase' on a bit is where it is 'gripped by/attached to' the headstall, which is what keeps it on the horse's head.

Cool! Thanks!

 

[Marsha Cassada]

The caveson, properly made and attached to the cheek pieces, is to keep the blinders/blinkers from gaping and allowing the horse to see behind them. See those loops that are on the inside in between the two outside keepers right under the blinkers? The caveson hanger strap goes through those loops to keep the blinkers close to the horse's face.

Myrna

My Ozark bridle does not have loops where yours does. I looked again today. Ended up having to run the noseband through the headstall loops above the bit, as in my photo. I will check my Big Dee bridle tomorrow and see how it is constructed. I obviously haven't been using the caveson properly all these years; no wonder it seemed like a useless piece of leather to me. Makes sense to keep the blinders secure the way yours is attached.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

My Ozark bridle does not have loops where yours does. I looked again today. Ended up having to run the noseband through the headstall loops above the bit, as in my photo.

My Ozark nosebands hang on a separate strap which runs through the rosettes and under the crownpiece as my old hunt bridles did. I quickly got tired of the way those caveson hanger straps would sneak forward and crowd the horse's face (looking SO sloppy!) so I long ago used electrical tape "keepers" to secure them to the main cheekpieces. Done neatly, run only through the inside of the folded cheekpiece as on Myrna's bridle, it works wonderfully.

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

I long ago used electrical tape "keepers" to secure them to the main cheekpieces. Done neatly, run only through the inside of the folded cheekpiece as on Myrna's bridle, it works wonderfully.

Good idea!

 

[Knottymare]

In my riding horses, the caveson was used to help with bit placement and holding. It's funny because I have one horse that absolutely was not comfy without his caveson and yet my mare did not need it at all and so I always adjusted her's very loose.

 

[RhineStone]

In my riding horses, the caveson was used to help with bit placement and holding.

After understanding the purpose of the caveson on a driving bridle, it didn't make sense as to why English horses use one, but not Western. Granted, Western horses aren't usually having that much contact on their mouth, either. And the reasoning we were given for English horses to have one is to keep the horse's mouth shut so as not to evade the bit. Wouldn't Western horses try to evade the bit as well?

Personally, I think it has a whole lot more to do with tradition. To use it to hold the horse's mouth shut is to take a "shortcut" in training.

Myrna

 

[Sue_C.]

To use it to hold the horse's mouth shut is to take a "shortcut" in training.

Exactly.

I never tighten my nosebands, there is always room for the horse to move the mouth, to "savour the flavour" of the bit, if you will. IMO, you can never get a nice properly relaxed carriage with the horse's face in a clamp.

 

[willowsedgebelgians]

I am unsure on a pleasure harness, but the origin on a draft harness for an overcheck is to keep the horse from getting the head down to the point of being dangerous. By this I mean that a horse that can get his head to a level of his chest and PULL can be completely uncontrollable. A person simply cannot pull hard enough on a large horses mouth to get him to stop, turn etc when he has his nose buried in his own chest and a mind to do what he wants. It is bad enough on a draft horse, but the worst time I ever had was with a 53" haflinger who was as dead broke as they come. I am sure the same type of rule applies to he pleasure harness.

That being said I don't see this as a true problem with a mini. Just not enough weight to get behind them as compared to leverage from the driver. It also doesn't apply to the stock type horses who are supposed to go with their heads low enough to eat grass anyway.

On response to the original post - we use mylers on our draft horses. We have to hook the overcheck to the loop created when the bridle hooks into the bit. Myler doesn't create enough room in even the big sizes to do both. I'd love to say that I had a pic to show you, but we use seperate overcheck bits in show and I don't tend to take pics of work days. Hook the bridle into the bit like normal, then hook the overcheck into the leather loop that you just made on the bridle. It keeps it off the caveson, and it does have some affect on the bit if the horse tries to drop his head drastically.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I am unsure on a pleasure harness, but the origin on a draft harness for an overcheck is to keep the horse from getting the head down to the point of being dangerous. By this I mean that a horse that can get his head to a level of his chest and PULL can be completely uncontrollable.

For a draft horse I have to think there are different issues to be considered. A draft can EASILY pull a meadowbrook or other good-sized load with his head up and have no problems; his own weight renders pulling such a burden easy. The lighter and smaller the horse, the more important it is that they be able to get their head down in order to pull properly and the less likely it is they can wrest control from the driver by doing so. One reason for checks with light horse harness was to keep the horse from being able to drop his head far enough to hook his bit or reins on the shaft tips or pole end. That's another place where things are different with miniatures- the distances involved with them are so short that you very nearly CAN'T check an A mini up high enough to prevent such a thing without nearly turning him inside out!

IMO it's far better to let them have their head loose and use neck terrets to keep the reins safely up. Bits these days no longer have slobber bars to get hooked so the reins are the main danger.

Interesting perspective and thank you for contributing. It's always interesting to hear from folks of different backgrounds.

Leia