AOTE Rules

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Lorraine

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Hello to everyone on this forum...This is Lorraine O'Connell

I would like to take this opportunity to clear up a few items that I have seen posted. First of all, there was a miscommuncation in that when I was told of concerns regarding the "clipping" of an AOTE horse I said that I would bring this up to my committee, not that it was coming up for a vote of the General Membership. I feel it is my responsibility as a committee co-chair to bring the needs and concerns of the membership forward. The AOTE program is a great program, but with any program there is always room for improvement. I did feel it was necessary, however, to clear up some of the misconseptions regarding the program and the only way to do this was to print for you the main part of the rule: (see pg 123 of the AMHA rule book):

"The horse exhibited by the AOTE must be trained, conditioned, groomed, and shown by the AOTE or a non-professional family member : (spouse,mother, father, brother, sister, niece, nephew, son, daughter, grandchild, grandparent, legal ward, in-laws, step children, step parents, step siblings) in all divisions entered."

According to the current rule, the AOTE does not have to train, condition, and groom their horse as long as it is performed by one of the relatives described above. It is apparant that there are many that believe this is a "do it yourself" program, when in fact it is more of a do it with family program. We can all put our own spin on what we think this program is to us, however, it is what is printed in the rulebook. This is spelled out .....a family member as specified can hand off the horse to the person exhibiting as long as they are distantly related. There is no mention of which family member boards the horse, or if the horse is even in the same state as the AOTE exhibitor. Does grooming include clipping? Is grooming brushing and bathing? Does grooming including trimming hooves? ........ these items are up to interpretation. But, once more let me specify to those that say grooming does include clipping that according to the current rule the person exhibiting the AOTE horse does not have to groom their own horse, it can be groomed (clipped if you want to say that clipping is grooming, however, some think not) by any of the above mentioned family members also. This is the reason that some brought up the fact that it is not fair for those not fortunate enough to have a family member to help out when need be. There are some members on blood thinners, some with knee replacement, some with pace makers, ect......., According to their Doctor, these members should not be clipping at all. Then there are others that are very capable of clipping but could use some help as some horses can be quite difficult to clip. Another concern brought up was for the person that had spent much time and money qualifying horses during the year in AOTE and then for some reason not be able to clip at the World Show due to a sudden injury........and what if this person was traveling with a girlfriend instead of a relative. It is because of this that these members would like to have another amateur help (not a professional trainer) ......

Regarding clipping, I have talked to many that "drug" their horses to the point that you could perform surgery on the horse as well, but this cannot be good for the horse on a regular basis. Bottom line......Training, Conditioning, Feeding, Watering, Trailering, and basic Grooming (baths, brushing, cleaning hooves) are usually for the most part not dangerous....... clipping, can be very dangerous both to horse and human.

One other item that I saw some were questioning was that of transportation. Please see page 123 rule #6.a.3.:

"AOTE horses may be transported to and from shows by anyone, including trainers. This includes loading, unloading, feeding and watering during transport."

Notice that there is no mention of boarding and no time limit.

I believe that the AOTE program is very important to the members and we should be working together to help the AMHA grow and prosper for the sake of our beloved minis!....

Rules are what they are, not what we think they should be. If members want to change rules there is a process to do this.

.
 
Lorraine, this is a very good job explaining the AOTE issues. You explained it so well that no one has replied. Looks like you left them speech less!

Tony
 
I have been following both of these AOTE threads and finally decided to add my 2 cents. First, I like the AOTE division. I didn't show in it this year but showed in it in 2008, and I thought it offered a great opportunity for a newbie to do well, and now even more that they have split the levels.

As far as the rules regarding AOTE. I do feel that the relatives rule is a little too broad a spectrum. I feel that it should be exclusive to include those immediate family members living in the same household. I don't see a problem with leaving it open to other family members for the regular ammy division, but for AOTE it should be restricted to those living in the household. For those instances where a horse is co-owned, only the person who cares for the horse on a daily basis should be eligible for AOTE.

As far as clipping. I think clipping is grooming and COMPLETELY affects the presentation of the horse, and therefore, should not be open to anyone besides the AOTE exhibitor. Hoof trimming and trailering doesn't drastically affect the presentation of the horse, Clipping most certainly does.

As far as bad knees and health issues. . . . If this is a true concern than perhaps it is time for a Special Needs AOTE division with modified rules. We can't start making exception for everything. What if I break my arm and am not able to lunge my horse for 6 weeks before the world show, so can there be an exception for someone else to work my horse, since I am now physically unable to? If the horse is unsafe to clip, the exhibitor should get a horse that is suitable for them to clip, and therefor fulfill the rules of AOTE. What if my AOTE horse starts rearing and biting and kicking and I am too inexperienced to work on the issue? Since it is now a safety problem is there an exception for someone else to retrain my horse so I can still show it AOTE?

As far as the championship classes. It would be too tough to police the issue of letting or not letting AOTE exhibitors have other ammys to show their horse in championship classes. If the exhibitor has more than one AOTE horse, then what? It is enough to say that it has to be another ammy.

As far as the rules being "open for interpretation . . " Any rule can be left up for interpretation really. If the rule-book specified every possible detail, explanation, and loophole, it would be a billion pages thick. Common sense and honesty has to come into play a bit and that's the exhibitor's responsibility. Yes, there are some specifics that may be questionable, like a time limit for hauling, or specific relatives, but the term grooming should be a given. Grooming should be a given . . . IMO, if you are questioning weather clipping is grooming, you are really just looking for a way to get around the rules.

If you don't want to follow AOTE rules, there is a regular Ammy division, and maybe that is the best place for you. The whole point of AOTE is to offer those who work their butts off THEMSELVES and show their horses. If you want to sit back and let someone else do this part or that part then bow out of AOTE and show Ammy, that's why there are both division available . . .
 
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I have also been following both of these threads. I couldn't agree more with what Matt said. I have been showing in AOTE for several years now and i believe it is an excellent program.

It would defeat the purpose of AOTE if you are able to hire somebody clip a horse because clipping definitely affects the appearance of the horse and obvioulsy you aren't doing it yourselve. You can interpret the rules any way you so chose to do so but we all know what grooming implies. Here is the definition of grooming "To clean and maintain the appearance of (as the coat of a horse or dog), to make neat or attractive, to get into readiness for a specific objective." We all know that clipping obviously affects the appearance of a horse just like when a person gets a haircut it "cleans and maintains the appearance" of them just like a horse, there is no doubt about it clipping is considered grooming. Like i said though no matter what it says people are going to interpret it the way they want to. And for pepole that have health issues that prevents them from clipping, my question is how are they are able to do everything else. My feeling on this is that because people are unable to clip for whatever reason that they want AMHA to accomodate them by changing the rules. Now how is it fair to everybody else that works their butts off following the rules while somebody else pays somebody to clip their horse, that just defeats the purpose of the whole class. You can't say well i did everything BUT clip the horse because like i said clipping is grooming and if you can't do it all then there is the regular Amateur class for you that will allow you to hire somebody to clip the horse. If it was easy then eveybody would be able to do it and then would what be the purpose for trainers?

I agree on the fact that the rule is a bit broad on who can take care of and show the horse but honestly how are you supposed to monitor who is taking care of the horse? To show in amateur your name doesn't have to be on the horse's paper as long as you are related. Not everybody lives in the same household as the person owning the horse but who is to say that just because you don't live with them you don't go to the barn every day and work your butt off taking care of the horse, feeding, training, conditioning, grooming, etc. Is there really a way to prove who is taking care of the horse?

As for the transportation of the AOTE horse, i personally don't see what hauling a horse has to do with it. The short length of time you are on the road hauling the horse i don't see how that affects the appearance of the horse. The way the economy is why should somebody have to drive 20+ hours to just haul an AOTE horse while somebody else is heading the same way can haul the horse too? Now i do believe that their should be a certain time limit stating how long the horse can be with the person transporting because it wouldn't be right to leave the horse a week before and week after the show.

This is my opinion about what has been said and how i feel about it.
 
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I agree Matt, well said.
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Aubrey, .. well said too.
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~Sandy
 
I agree with both Matt and Aubrey - well said! I think the AOTE is a great program and I know lots of people who show in it. I have my own reasons for not showing in it, but rather than objecting to the rules, I just don't show in AOTE classes. There are plenty of other places and classes to show in.

The reason I don't show in AOTE is because I have teens from the local Agri-Science High School help out here as part of their required "internships". I try to give each of them the chance to show a mini the following summer. Since they aren't related to me, they can't show my AOTE horse (the one year I did show AOTE). Also, it makes it hard for me to teach the students to clip and do all the other things they want to learn. In addition, I use ALL my minis in various 4-H and school programs where grooming is involved. So I just don't show in AOTE - it is not worth it to me.
 
Way to go Aubrey you took the words right out of my dictionary, I was on my way to look of up the deifination of grooming and there you posted. Grooming = clipping

Couldnt agree any more with Matt and Aubrey!!
 
I agree Matt, well said.
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Aubrey, .. well said too.
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~Sandy
Hi to Sandy, Matt, Aubrey, Mary and Angel..... this is Lorraine......

The point I was making is that under the current rule.......The person exhibiting the AOTE horse does not have to "groom" their own horse........... or train it for that matter.....it is the magic word "or" ........ as the training, conditioning, showing and grooming can be done by those I listed above in my note!!!! The complaints were from those without family. Even a very strong farrier needs help much of the time........and some feel this is grooming Perhaps if the rule stated that each AOTE had to "clip" their own horse without help, others without family would not feel that they are being treated unfairly. However, I would be concerned that a few horses would be missing eyes!! I am sure my AOTE committee would like to hear your feelings on how to make the program better and there is a process for rule change........ but at the moment we have a rule in place.
 
I agree Matt, well said.
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Aubrey, .. well said too.
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~Sandy
Hi to Sandy, Matt, Aubrey, Mary and Angel..... this is Lorraine......

The point I was making is that under the current rule.......The person exhibiting the AOTE horse does not have to "groom" their own horse........... or train it for that matter.....it is the magic word "or" ........ as the training, conditioning, showing and grooming can be done by those I listed above in my note!!!! The complaints were from those without family. Even a very strong farrier needs help much of the time........and some feel this is grooming Perhaps if the rule stated that each AOTE had to "clip" their own horse without help, others without family would not feel that they are being treated unfairly. However, I would be concerned that a few horses would be missing eyes!! I am sure my AOTE committee would like to hear your feelings on how to make the program better and there is a process for rule change........ but at the moment we have a rule in place.
I would like to add my last post. Based on all the comments that I have read recently, I would really like to provide my AOTE committee with a consolidated view of what your concept is of an "Amateur Owned Trained and Exhibited" horse. Please define the concept in a paragraph or less and I will forward your thoughts to them.

thank you, Lorraine

PS: I would hope that your concept/definition would include the major items including: who can train? who can board? who can ship? who can clip? Who can show? ect.....

For example: Can mom train and daughter show if they live in different states? Something to think about....
 
Why would you want to rewrite the rules? Its good the way it is. All this nitpicking is going to end us losing our class. Thats all thats going to happen. Cant we focus on the good???

I basically can read into your post, you are trying to get past one horse one amt. Thats is going to lose alot of money for the AMHA, ruin it for people who share their horses with their family. Its a family affair, leave it alone.
 
Why would you want to rewrite the rules? Its good the way it is. All this nitpicking is going to end us losing our class. Thats all thats going to happen. Cant we focus on the good???
I basically can read into your post, you are trying to get past one horse one amt. Thats is going to lose alot of money for the AMHA, ruin it for people who share their horses with their family. Its a family affair, leave it alone.
 
Why would you want to rewrite the rules? Its good the way it is. All this nitpicking is going to end us losing our class. Thats all thats going to happen. Cant we focus on the good???
I basically can read into your post, you are trying to get past one horse one amt. Thats is going to lose alot of money for the AMHA, ruin it for people who share their horses with their family. Its a family affair, leave it alone.
Hello....... quite the opposite ...... maybe I was trying to read into your posts............ and yes it is a family affiar which is why some are confused...... perhaps it should be called Family Owned Trained and Exhibited and then everything would be clear.

Lorraine
 
The only modification I see necessary to make to the current standing AOTE rule is to tighten up the definition of family. Instead of allowing every member on the family tree, I think it should be limited to ONE HOUSEHOLD. If there happens to be a 3rd step cousin twice removed by marriage living with "Mom" then they can share the horse . . . If they don't live there, NO! In the case of a co-owned horse, whoever physically takes care of the horse on a daily basis and THEIR household should be allowed to show AOTE, but ONLY if the other co-owner isn't showing. If you co-own a horse with someone who you don't live with, you should have to forfeit your AOTE rights, in my opinion, have a ball with regular ammy, but AOTE isn't your place . . .

Perhaps clarify grooming to include clipping for those who might try to "interpret" the rules their own way . . .

I don't see that there is a need for any other changes to the rule, or the name of the class.
 
The only modification I see necessary to make to the current standing AOTE rule is to tighten up the definition of family. Instead of allowing every member on the family tree, I think it should be limited to ONE HOUSEHOLD. If there happens to be a 3rd step cousin twice removed by marriage living with "Mom" then they can share the horse . . . If they don't live there, NO! In the case of a co-owned horse, whoever physically takes care of the horse on a daily basis and THEIR household should be allowed to show AOTE, but ONLY if the other co-owner isn't showing. If you co-own a horse with someone who you don't live with, you should have to forfeit your AOTE rights, in my opinion, have a ball with regular ammy, but AOTE isn't your place . . .
Perhaps clarify grooming to include clipping for those who might try to "interpret" the rules their own way . . .

I don't see that there is a need for any other changes to the rule, or the name of the class.
Thank you very much Matt......you have made some excellent points.... Lorraine
 
Just to clarify, in the case of co-owning a horse, what I meant by forfeiting the rights to AOTE, is ONLY if both owners want to show. If only one is going to show and the other has no involvement, is just on the papers, then the one who cares for and shows the horse could show AOTE. Some of this would be hard to police, but again, we have to expect and hope for honesty from our members . . .
 
Why would you want to rewrite the rules? Its good the way it is. All this nitpicking is going to end us losing our class. Thats all thats going to happen. Cant we focus on the good???
I basically can read into your post, you are trying to get past one horse one amt. Thats is going to lose alot of money for the AMHA, ruin it for people who share their horses with their family. Its a family affair, leave it alone.
Hello....... quite the opposite ...... maybe I was trying to read into your posts............ and yes it is a family affiar which is why some are confused...... perhaps it should be called Family Owned Trained and Exhibited and then everything would be clear.

Lorraine
I did not mean your quotes personally..... I meant all the comments that I have read so far.....

I do believe, however, that people get confused with the name being "Amateur Owned Trained and Exhibited" ...... some think one person is showing.... I am neutral on this one!.....
 
Lorraine, is there a current proposal that has been devised? Would you post it on this thread please?

I would appreciate it, thanks!

Matt
 
Lorraine, is there a current proposal that has been devised? Would you post it on this thread please?
I would appreciate it, thanks!

Matt
No proposal at this time..... just wanted feedback...... thanks. L
 
In the other AOTE thread, Jody stated that she had spoken with you(Lorraine) that morning and you'd stated that you would be submitting a proposal for rule change at 2010 convention? Based on what you just said, I assume this is something you are planning to do but havent actually started?

As your committee devises the proposal, please keep us posted. I plan on being at Convention and am in total support of protecting AOTE the way that it was meant to be!
 
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