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Jane, if slaughter was the answer to our horse problems it would have worked by now don't you think? It has never stopped anyone from abusing or neglecting their horses even when it was available. It has never stopped breeding as a whole. It never stopped anything but made the getting rid part less problematic, provided you don't have a conscience. It was only those assuming a marginal responsibility for the animal they no longer wanted instead of letting them starve in some back field or to make a quick buck so they didn't have to make an effort to get rid of them in a more humane way by rehoming or euthanizing. Now those with that marginal responsibility are going to have to find another avenue for disposal and it will be costly. There are no fairy tale abbatoirs in the US like you describe nor is there ever likely to be. I would never be comforted knowing an animal I loved and cared for deserved any such end as you described even under the best circumstances. It's a simple equasion: If you don't make them, you don't have to dispose of them.

Unfortunately, as things go which will make people like Shari very unhappy, if the majority doesn't start waking up and taking this stuff seriously, their "rights" will shrink more and more every day. If we don't self regulate then someone is going to step in and force the issue and do it for us. That is what happened with ending slaughter and I predict will eventually happen with breeding and onto ownership. So be it. It's all gotten so ridiculous and out of control that sadly people like PETA will gain the foot hold and we won't be able to enjoy our animals at all eventually.
 
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"your") idea of great is another's cull and no breed would ever suffer one iota if you never bred one of those so called quality horses in your entire lives.

I couldnt agree more and say this all the time. I dont care if EVERY horse you own has won ribbons and/or top tens or even a National champions the breed would go on and would go on just fine if NONE of those horses were bred. Be they mine , yours or whoevers I think often people use winning or ribbons to justify how they are not in any way part of the problem when the reality is every one of us who breeds even one foal then has contributed to the issue. Does it mean no one should ever breed again of course not but I think a huge part of the issue is how many there are who are willing to blame it on the other guy be it the big farm, small farm ,backyard person whatever you want to call them sometimes it takes us realizing the finger should be pointing back at ourselves for us to even start thinking about being part of a solution even in some small way
 
I would like to know how many people posting on this topic have ever been to a horse auction, and I am not talking about a registered breed sale, I am talking about the once a month or once a week livestock barn sale? Have you checked the background of the thin and abused horses there?

One of the largest offenders I have found are dealers who supply for horse camps (do you send your kids to horse camp?), buy in the spring, use them up over the summer (and the camp doesn't want to eat up its profits on horse care) than dump them in the fall.

The saddest cases I have seen are horses involved in divorces (I'm not feeding them if He/She is going to end up with them). Also worn out broke down race horses and draft horses (what do you do with those?) and no there are not local renderers and most places are not allowed to bury carcasses.

Pointing fingers at breeders, who are for the most part responsible, caring individuals who do the best they can to assure their babies find good homes, is really missing the mark. There are bad breeders, there are bad owners too! And sometimes life just doesn't work out like expected!

ALL horse owners need to take a responsibility in this issue, not point fingers at others and decide they are not part of the problem!
 
I personally do NOT want to see the government step in and take action. Im sorry, but in my opinion the big fancy billionaire sitting up on capital hill just could not understand the equine industry well enough to take correct action. Its a problem that WE have to fix ourselves, and you know not everyone is willing to do that.

This past weekend we went to Kentucky and we went to an auction that my father and his father and grandfather and greatgrandfather went to every friday, i have NEVER seen such sad things in my life! I dont think i will go into detail here but because of one mans stupidity and lack of humanity a horse just about died and about took a car and a couple people with him. Ugh, still thinking about it makes me angry. The people like that are the ones that worry me :no:
 
You are absolutely right, it is about responsible ownership as well. But the buyer is the end result, not the cause of it. Face it, the market can only absorb just so much. I guess you now want to blame us all now for the lack of good homes? These people you speak of that get tired of them, children out grew them, whatever the excuse for dumping them are actually the good homes you thought you chose. There are no guarantees and one would think that alone would be enough for any intelligent person to understand and make adjustments accordingly. Good homes are limited so if you insist on being in the business of breeding you have to accept you may be condemning a portion of the horses you produce and most likely their offspring to a life of misery or worse, in homes that are less than what you’d hope they’d have. If that’s an acceptable outcome for you—great but it’s definitely not good enough for me and is the main reason I will not bring any animal into this world with those kinds of odds.
 
You make a very good point that there are some horrible buyers BUT if those horses hadn't been bred in the first place they wouldn't have gotten sold to those horrible buyers! This goes back to responsible breeding...don't breed them and they won't end up with irresponsible people
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: Why is all the talk about responsible breeders?? I will take a stab at answering this. Any person who is responsible takes a good long look at what they are doing and what they are going to do. If what they are doing or plan on doing is going to affect other than themself they need to ask themself what that effect will be. In breeding horses, if a breeder hasn't looked at all the possibilities of what could happen to the foals they bring into the world, they wouldn't, in my book be very responsible. As the article points out, breeders should have seen this coming but they didn't stop at any time and see that possibility of overproduction [or at least too many didn't] . Was that not being irresponsible? When dealing with living creatures, and thinking of their welfare, as responsible breeders should, they won't be overproducing and then putting the blame on the people they sell to, or blame anyone but themselves for the mess they created. Mary

PS Stormy, yes I have been to the big horse auctions that are held once a month or twice a month and it is one of the most eye opening things to see what happens to many horses! :no: It is a waste dump for some beautiful and some not so beautiful animals that breeders/owners no longer want. It is so sad to see the crippled, especially run through there because it is a fact that they have been stressed beyond what they should be and we know they still have the long ride to their full death.

Ah, but you see, non breeders are actually a part of the problem too. After all, horse owners that are not breeders were horse buyers... it's kind of the same idea behind pet store puppies. Everyone says not to buy puppies from pet stores, because by doing so you are supporting puppy mills--the main supplier of pet stores. Likewise, everyone that buys a horse is supporting the breeders.

Why is all the talk about responsible breeders? (What does a responsible breeder look like anyway?? ) Why is there no mention of responsible owners? If every breeder in the country stopped breeding now--say they aborted every mare already bred for '08, so that in '08 there are absolutely no more foals....there would still be horses going through the auction sales. There would still be horses going to the feedlots and from there to the slaughterhouses. why? Because of the people that bought horses and now have decided that they no longer want them. Maybe the horse has become lame, or the horse is spoiled & cannot be ridden? Maybe the horse is too much work. Or costs too much to feed. The horse was bought for the kids, who have now decided that boys are more interesting than horses....kids aren't going to ride the horse any more, horse must go NOW. Some of those horses weren't even bought cheap--the owners paid a good price because at the time the horse was the thing to buy. Now they can't get the price back out of the horse, for whatever reason, they just want the horse to be gone & are going to sell it the quickest way possible. No time for showing the horse to people, can't ride the horse to demo it for anyone, so they say "at least if I take it to the sale it is gone!" I've been to local killer sales where on any given day not one of the horses that goes through the ring was consigned by a breeder. Yes, some of the local sales will see horses that are consigned by a breeder, but most are not. Responsible owners are every bit as important as responsible breeders.
 
Only 1 horse in all my years.... have I lost track of. I know where all the other's are because I keep in touch with the new owners,, but not in such a way as to put them off. Guess I have been lucky.

I am still looking for Socrates and will contiune until I find him. People never changed over his paperwork.

Nothing in life is perfect be it with human's killing their own kids or parents...to abusing them, to the same happing to any animal.

To say there should be laws to keep everyone from breeding or even owning animals is not something I ever want to see.

I do not want to live in a communist Country... welcome to the USSR of America. Sigh ~~ Even then there will be a black market for pets and animals. Short of whiping every human off the face of the earth....

the world will never be a perfect place.

PETA thinks no one should even own animals..owning animals no matter how well cared for is against everything they stand for. Everyone here is on their hit list. Doesn't matter if you breed or not. I also do not want to see them take our rights to own animals away. If one doesn't breed but just buys or adopts animals...you are every bit as much to blame for the whole mess in their eyes.

Again... I do not want the Gov or state dictate what I should be allowed to do or not do. If I want a foal every great once in awhile or even hatch out baby chicks.. I want to be able to do that. Without worry.

I do not go to Auctions...do not know of any even around here. Maybe someone should pass a law not to allow horses in auctions?

Only thing each one of us can do, is care for our animals well. Report any abuse if we see it... take action if one can,, or help when needed.

I for one do not want to give up being able to own animals, or breed, the rare times I do.

Because when those rights are gone..what is next?
 
Ah, but you see, non breeders are actually a part of the problem too. After all, horse owners that are not breeders were horse buyers... it's kind of the same idea behind pet store puppies. Everyone says not to buy puppies from pet stores, because by doing so you are supporting puppy mills--the main supplier of pet stores. Likewise, everyone that buys a horse is supporting the breeders.

Why is all the talk about responsible breeders? (What does a responsible breeder look like anyway?? ) Why is there no mention of responsible owners? If every breeder in the country stopped breeding now--say they aborted every mare already bred for '08, so that in '08 there are absolutely no more foals....there would still be horses going through the auction sales. There would still be horses going to the feedlots and from there to the slaughterhouses. why? Because of the people that bought horses and now have decided that they no longer want them. Maybe the horse has become lame, or the horse is spoiled & cannot be ridden? Maybe the horse is too much work. Or costs too much to feed. The horse was bought for the kids, who have now decided that boys are more interesting than horses....kids aren't going to ride the horse any more, horse must go NOW. Some of those horses weren't even bought cheap--the owners paid a good price because at the time the horse was the thing to buy. Now they can't get the price back out of the horse, for whatever reason, they just want the horse to be gone & are going to sell it the quickest way possible. No time for showing the horse to people, can't ride the horse to demo it for anyone, so they say "at least if I take it to the sale it is gone!" I've been to local killer sales where on any given day not one of the horses that goes through the ring was consigned by a breeder. Yes, some of the local sales will see horses that are consigned by a breeder, but most are not. Responsible owners are every bit as important as responsible breeders.
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yep, what we have is an owner retention problem. If horses are going to be considered pets and not livestock (ie a potential source of high quality protein) then owners need to consider those pets as a lifetime commitment, not something to be "gotten rid of" on a whim. Shutting down slaughter plants and treating equines as pets is another huge part of the problem. People cannot commit to a dog that lives 10 years how do we expect these same people to commit to an animal that lives 30 years?

As for rendering plants they are few and far between anymore. It is a combination of issues that has shut many down. The closing of slaughter plants reduces the need, stricter environmental regulations has lead to very few areas where they can operate, chemical residue from humane euthansia is another huge concern so any "meal" ends up as fertilizer and even that is beginning to draw attention. It's a real pickle we have legislated ourselves into.
 
Do I believe that instead of getting slaughter banned the animal rights groups should have instead gone after getting improved conditions in slaughterhouses and during transport? YES.
.................... Do you think these groups are aware of what has happened or are they turning their heads now? Perhaps they need to be constantly inundated with all of these horrible news stories & pictures so they will regroup & work toward what will be more humane for the horses.
 
Everyone has to do their own part. Not breeding...no mares pregnant.

Only ever been to one auction...a BLM wild horse adoption. I purchsed a 4 month old stud colt for $2500. A guy three rows behind me paid $19,000 (yup Nineteen THOUSAND) for a 4 month old filly and at $18,000 three people were still bidding. I sold my stud colt to my best friend a year later for $5000 (turned down a higher offer from a person known to mistreat their animals). He's 7 now and has sired some stunning babies. All have sold well. That was 7 years ago. I'm going to the round up of the same herd next month and don't expect anything to go for over $500 (if that). The market is flooded everywhere for all breeds.

There's a Paint farm in town here specializing in black and whites. They sell from $5000 and up. BUT, they only sell a tiny few. If you go to the Horse Auction in the fall I've been told you can pick up their unsold horses (dozens of them) for a few hundred. They dump them.. pull their papers and dumps them for next to nothing so they doesn't have to feed them through the winter. It make it all worthwhile to her if they sell one for $20,000. I've never experienced this myself but it's common knowledge around here. Disgusts me. I hope it's not true but too many people say it is.
 
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Shari, I think that all of us want to keep our rights so we can make good choices ....but what is being said is we will loose those rights if people don't take their responsibilites seriously. Of course we don't want to be ruled in a communist fashion but there will be more legislation for us to deal with if there continues to be irresponsible people. Yes, life isn't perfect but that doesn't mean we can't keep trying to make it a better life for both animals and people.

I don't see where anyone said there should be laws to keep everyone from breeding or even owning animals....all I am wanting to see happen is the person who wants those rights to be responsible for what they breed and own...not make it a problem that others have to deal with. You sound like a very concerned animal owner and more people like you are needed. There are people out there who think others should take care of the problems they made and we already pay plenty of taxes to pay for those problems...I truly hope that we don't see even more, and higher taxes have to go to clean up this mess of overproduction of horses. Help us keep our rights by speaking out against those who possibly could have ours taken away. Mary

Only 1 horse in all my years.... have I lost track of. I know where all the other's are because I keep in touch with the new owners,, but not in such a way as to put them off. Guess I have been lucky.

I am still looking for Socrates and will contiune until I find him. People never changed over his paperwork.

Nothing in life is perfect be it with human's killing their own kids or parents...to abusing them, to the same happing to any animal.

To say there should be laws to keep everyone from breeding or even owning animals is not something I ever want to see.

I do not want to live in a communist Country... welcome to the USSR of America. Sigh ~~ Even then there will be a black market for pets and animals. Short of whiping every human off the face of the earth....

the world will never be a perfect place.

PETA thinks no one should even own animals..owning animals no matter how well cared for is against everything they stand for. Everyone here is on their hit list. Doesn't matter if you breed or not. I also do not want to see them take our rights to own animals away. If one doesn't breed but just buys or adopts animals...you are every bit as much to blame for the whole mess in their eyes.

Again... I do not want the Gov or state dictate what I should be allowed to do or not do. If I want a foal every great once in awhile or even hatch out baby chicks.. I want to be able to do that. Without worry.

I do not go to Auctions...do not know of any even around here. Maybe someone should pass a law not to allow horses in auctions?

Only thing each one of us can do, is care for our animals well. Report any abuse if we see it... take action if one can,, or help when needed.

I for one do not want to give up being able to own animals, or breed, the rare times I do.

Because when those rights are gone..what is next?
 
There are people out there trying and some places in the country succeeding in stopping people from breeding dogs or cats. Horses are not that far off.

But how to deal with those that do not make good choices...the ones that dump horses, puppy mill breed and so on...and make it bad for us all?

That's the problem.

I do what I can..which is less than what I used to be able to do,sadly.

How to educated people.. before they get horses or those who get in over their heads? How to deal with the puppy mill breeders ( I know of a couple...of big well known Arab farms I have personally seen..that for every national winner, they had 10 colts away from the public waiting to go to slaughter) ? Or those that come from the city and have no ideas about animals?

Jane might be able to correct this.. but I have been told there are places in the UK where people can learn about horse ownership before they get a horse? And it is not too spendy. I may of not understood it correctly.

Could the US start something like that and still make it affordable?

How to pin point the worse areas in the US and fomulate possible ways to educated people without closing minds? Because closed minds will not get us what we need.

Ran across this web site at the AMHA video links..

http://www.unwantedhorsecoalition.org/

But not everyone goes on the internet. Unlike PETA most of us do not get the kind of funds needed to educate people.

I have lots of ideas but no way to afford any of it.
 
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Does anyone think that the ones who have created the problem will actually take heed???
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: Anybody with common sense understands that it is the OVERPRODUCTION of horses that makes for the surplus...whether it is breeding for recreational type horses, showing, etc. Irresponsible breeding creates more horses than the market will bear, plain and simple. Some want to blame the slaughter house closing for the problem but all slaughter houses were doing was aiding and abetiting the irresponsible breeders! GET RID OF WHAT I DON'T WANT has been the stance of breeders who think they must breed for more than what they need. The take home message of this article should be: Cut down on the numbers that are being bred and this could apply to any person breeding horses because even if you breed for the best there is still a surplus of the ones that aren't so great from the best breedings. There will have to be a strong educational force to overcome the problem of overproduction.....and this isn't just talking about the large breed of horses for I live here at Billings and have seen even the little ones get sold to "the buyers" and some of these little ones can carry a pedigree which shows they came down from breeders who swear they are only breeding the best to the best.

Something else I would like to say; if you think it is going to be so horrible for the "throw away horses" to be hauled to Canada or Mexico, stop and see that it was just as bad for when they were being hauled to Texas or somewhere else in the United States. From Billings, it is closer to have them hauled to Canada than it was to Texas and Mexico is about the same as Texas!

It really stands out for me that the rescues aren't just taking in badly conformed horses but also taking in horses that owners did not want to have sent to slaughter but they can no longer afford them.

Here in our area there has been a good market for great gelding Quarter Horses, but evenQuarter Horses are being over bred because they were bringing a great price but in order to have those geldings there had to be a lot of breedings taking place which not only produced something for gelding but also produced the not so wanted fillys which ended up going to "the buyers"! JUst my comments, Mary

You have said it all, speak the "truth" of the situation. I am in agreement with you 100%. I don't care if the horse is what is considered as "quality". The bottom line has to do with the amount of horses being bred period, the fact that many continue breeding for the following year and then you get ads like "must sell to make room for next year's foal crop". When you can't afford to keep the ones that aren't selling until you find them a home, it tells me that this is a HUGE problem with numbers, quality or not. Sorry but when I see ads like this it truly gets me angry!
 
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Welll, if the only responsible breeders are those who don't breed at all, and if all breeders were responsible breeders, none of us would own horses, because there would be none to buy.
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: Breeding to sell isn't something I'm doing--the horses I've bred have been pretty much all for me and since we now have all the horses we need we are pretty much done breeding so it's not that I have any reason to defend breeding for the market. The reason I don't sell? There are just too many bad people out there, and too many bad situations, and no one else can give my ponies a good enough home.
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The few horses we've sold--and it is very few!--are in good homes. If we do let a horse go we're very picky about the buyer. We can only hope they stay in those good homes, but once they're sold we have no control over what the new owner does with the horse. Even with a buy back clause in the sales agreement there is no guarantee. We've heard of many horses that were sold with a buy back clause, yet the new owner chose to just sell the horse on to someone else without even contacting the previous owner--and it's very hard, if not impossible, to enfore a buy back clause once it is breached. Breeders can try very hard to ensure their horses are sold only to good homes, but those homes sell them on, or lie about how things are with them...well, sometimes good homes aren't what they appear to be. And even once a breeder realizes they've sold to a bad home, it's not always possible to get the horse back. Sometimes the new owner just refuses to sell, no matter what.

But yes, I guess breeders are 100% to blame for everything wrong in the horse industry, because after all, if it weren't for the breeders there would be no owners. Perhaps then PETA has the right idea after all when it comes to animal ownership?
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This is a great article. For those of you that only scanned it, the emphasis was placed on people NOT breeding for pet quality horses. And I'm sorry to say, that even those that are breeding for one or two foals a year, if you plan on selling those babies, you are adding to the problem too. In my honest opinion, at this time, even breeding a numerous amount of good babies is adding to the problem. I'm sure I'll get blasted because of that statement, but I do believe it.

I was told by someone just the other day that she was so sad that we aren't going to be breeding any longer, because we are so careful in our selection of broodmares and which stallion we used, trying to improve the breed. She made the point that it will be the responsible people that cut down on the breeding. The people that are breeding pet quality to pet quality will keep on doing it because they don't see the problems. I'm afraid that she is right, although that WON'T make me want to do any more breeding. Of course we want to believe that there will always be a market for a good quality horse, but I'm thinking that maybe with all the horses out there needing a home, adding more to the market place won't help at this time. Not that breding in the future will be a hardship for the market. But at this time, until things are straightened out, I think breeding needs to come to a screeching halt. I'm a realist and I KNOW that this won't happen. There is a man along the highway not far from us who is breeding very poor quality horses and is barely caring for the many that he has. It's heart wrenching to drive by that place. I hate it. These are big horses. They are standing knee deep in mud, some of them and the rest are tossed out on dirt pastures with a little hay. But they won't do anything about it because the horses always have "some" food and water. Sigh....

Educating the new horse owner is very important!! I think we should work on that!!
 
I agree that responsible breeding is a must. But, responsible ownership is also something that is also very lacking. Not enough people look at their animals as a partnership. There are so many people out there that when they tire of a pet, they just get rid of them. Or they work them to the bones...then get rid of them.

I own an animal rescue farm/ thereputic foster care farm for children in Middleboro, Mass. My whole project started with a Belgian Mare that we named Emma. She was rescued by Wild Irish Farm directly from a slaughter house in Pennsylvania. She was severely under weight and her hooves were so short, she limped. The first time I saw her, she had just arrived...it was pouring rain...and when she looked up at me, she had the kindest eyes of any horse I had ever seen. She limped over to me...and it was love at first sight.

I knew then and there...that I had to help. We adopted an old Percheron/QH gelding to keep her company...and 5 years later, we ended up with a barn load of miscellaneous animals that weren't wanted any more. "not enough time for them", "grew out of that phase" etc. etc. etc.

The animals on our farm are doted on by our foster kids. They are spoiled rotten. They are part of our family and retired for life here. We do not sell or breed any of our animals.

Our latest editions are a herd of miniature horses that we adopted from Live and Let Live Farm in Chichester NH. Sadly, their previous owner was a handicapped woman that passed away. I think she would be happy to see how loved those little guys are....and know that they are safe and home.

It's sad, but the children that come to our farm are in such similar circumstances as the animals. They just need a safe place to call a forever home.....and someone to love them.
 
I personally know of many good horse owners, that very much care for their horses. But problem is... these are the wonderful folks no one hears about. Because there are no problems..their horses are well loved and cared for. These are the unsung hero's.

And there are more out there than people think.
 
Aww Shari, We do understand that there are wonderful horse owners out there but this is a thread about the overproduction of horses and so we are hearing of the problems and what goes with it. The good horse owners aren't the problem but it is the ones who are the problem that are being discussed. Good horse owners aren't having a finger or three pointed at them because that is what is expected of ownership and three cheers and more for the ones who do enjoy and care for their horses. I know I wouldn't want to be without my horses...they mean so very much to me and bring me smiles and much joy but I have the responsibility of taking good care of them and that entails a lot......I also realize that there can be a great deal of costs that go with my horses and I realize that I have to have someone available should I not be able to take care of them...these animals depend on us for all their needs and should have rights to be free of abuse of any kind.

Mary V, How wonderful of you to take in the unwanted and care for them.....they are fortunate to have you. It is sad that so many horses go unwanted, be it because someone got tired of horse ownership, not good enough for the racetrack, not good enough for the showring, not good enough for family enjoyment, not the right sex, can't afford it, and the list goes on.

I would love to see every horse treated humanly and that is why I am against slaughter houses.....the whole process of going from it's home to the auctions, the trips across country to get to salughter houses can be a very cruel process. If a horse is put down at its home and then taken away and disposed of through rendering, being fed to other animals etc. so be it, if that is what owners have to do, but abuse of that horse should not be tolerated. We used to have a rendering plant here but for some reason it closed down. There are other ways now to handle the carcasses. Our local sanitation department has a disposal area, for dead horses/cows. they do have a charge of $75.00 but waive it for people who may have a single "pet" to be buried. [horse owners can speak to thie local authorities about getting something similar set up if they don't have it already. There is also a business that comes in and gets carcasses for rendering...don't know for sure where they are taken. Many of the big ranches in this state have acres and acres of land and some could be made into burial sites if there was real interest in treating horses humanly..sad part is most would rather get a few hundred bucks for that lame 3 legged horse from the "buyer" than to have it put down at their ranch. I encourage all horse lovers to seek out ways to humanly handle the unwanted horses. If Peta can make enough noise to speak out about what they are doing shouldn't those who want to be responsible horse owners not also come together to speak out on humanly handling the unwanted horses and encourage breeders to be more responsible? Unfortunately, the way I see it now, it will be the people who want to see that horses are humanly treated that will carry the load of trying to change the ways of irresponsible horse breeders/owners. I know I don't want to loose my rights of horse ownership because of the irresponsible people. Mary

P.S. I had to chuckle reading the part of that article where Bill Parker says Many of the horses go through the ring "loose" because they no longer can meet the soundness creteria. "They might be ranch horses that can no longer stand up to range work, but will be a fine trail horse for somebody in the MIDWEST or EAST." [capitalzationmine] Guess he figures anyone here in the West wouldn't be dumb enough to buy them!! Oh well, guess it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

I personally know of many good horse owners, that very much care for their horses. But problem is... these are the wonderful folks no one hears about. Because there are no problems..their horses are well loved and cared for. These are the unsung hero's.

And there are more out there than people think.
 

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