Another overo genetics question

[sweetheart]

I was reading the thread on LWO and overo genetics that talked about how the LWO gene can "hide" in solid or tobiano appearing horses. I have the opposite question though: Can a horse have obvious frame overo characteristics, yet not have the LWO gene?

 

[targetsmom]

I am not sure what exactly you mean by "frame overo characteristics" but the way I understand it is that the LWO test is for the frame overo gene. So a true "frame overo" would be LWO+. But I have seen pintos that appeared to be "frame overo" in that the white didn't cross the topline and they looked like your standard "frame" pattern, but they were LWO-. If you know what the parents are, that can be a big help.

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

The way I understand it, from discussions with paint breeders, is that the LWO gene IS the frame gene and vice versa, so in order for a horse to be "frame overo" he/she must be LWO+.. Now there are some horses out there that appear to be 'frame' but are LWO negative, but I feel that the frame pattern appearance is due to the other patterns playing together and mimicking the frame pattern..

 

[Mona]

Sabino can sometimes be pretty tricky, often strongly resembling the frame pattern, but usually the true frame overos will have other indicators that you can look for as well.

 

[AnnaC]

Could you expand on those 'other characteristics' please Mona?

Also can I ask if it is possible for the LWO gene to 'jump' a generation, or is it just 'hidden' (as in a solid colour)?

Anna

 

[Dona]

Could you expand on those 'other characteristics' please Mona?

Also can I ask if it is possible for the LWO gene to 'jump' a generation, or is it just 'hidden' (as in a solid colour)?

Anna

I don't believe it can "jump" a generation. If you don't see it "visably" it is most likely being obliterated by other patterns....or hidden in a horse that "appears" to be solid. However, if one looked very closely, that "solid" horse, would probably have some spot(s) of white on it somewhere not easily seen....as on a genital, on the tailbone, inside a lip, etc.

As far as the "other LWO indicators" Mona mentioned. Having at least one totally dark leg would be one. All the other pinto patterns can/will put white on the legs, while Frame (LWO) does just the opposite.

Also....look for ANY kind of color "pattern" (broken or not) that going down the middle of the back...extending down the butt.

I had a Tovero colt last year that did not carry a "visual" frame pattern as he had more white than color.

But....... I highly suspected he carried the Frame gene, as he had black skin UNDER his tail extending down to his anus.

Had him tested, and sure enough....he was LWO positive!

 

[Becky]

Frame is a dominant gene, so no, it doesn't skip a generation. A horse either has it or they don't. But, as has been pointed out, it can express in such minimal form that it goes unnoticed. But, I have had horses that I thought for sure would carry frame, either from their pattern or their pedigree and after testing, nope, no frame!

 

[Joanne]

This 2007 silver dapple black filly is LWO Frame Positive. At foaling she only had the offset bald face visible. But in the fall we found white along her belly midline when we clipped her. She has some small pastern socks. The whole facial pttern is outlined with black tracing.

 

[wcr]

Let's see if I can make any sense out of this. In a perfect world all horses would look like the examples of what they show for the color patterns. That would make it too easy. There is a wide range of expressions within a pattern from minimal to maximum expression. The predominately white colt shown before is a maximum frame overo pattern and might have tobiano thrown in. Crossing tobiano with the overo patterns frequently gives a lot of white. You combine the patterns and they both come out giving the large amount of white. The colt shown has the frame overo characteristics-the chest "shield" as they call it and the skull cap-the dark on the ears or the top of the head would have the dark color. I had a paint filly that looked just like that colt and had someone argue that she was tobiano because the white went over the back. Nope, all overo bred, but they are maximum expression. If you look on my sale page, my colt Dreamz looks frame with the white on his side but he is minimal splash.

It is exciting being into the minis as we are just getting our overo programs going and we are lucky to have the tests so we know what we are dealing with. Since many here have been into the biggies before the minis I will use their history to try to make it easier.

Quarter Horses are a solid breed with white chrome on many. If you look at the foundation sires for Quarter horses, many are actually what we consider paints today. There is a lot of overo genetics in the breed. They would breed 2 horses and end up with a wild colored baby. These horses were not eligible for Quarter horse registry and that is when we had the birth of the Paint horse association. It gave them a place to register and promote these horses. Until recently Quarter Horses couldn't have more white than specified and paints couldn't have less white than specified. If you had a foal out of two colored horses that were regular registry but didn't have enough white to qualify for regular registry they were put in the breeding stock registry.

To relate this back to minis, you might have a solid horse that tests Lethal White positive, which is the indicator for frame overo. They have the genetics to have a colored baby but don't have enough white to be called overo themselves. This is the same as breeding stock in paints.

 

[Mona]

Anna, some things I looks for to help you decide, are one or two blue eyes, irregular face markings, color along topline, and color in lower legs broken in with the white. The color on the lower legs is often the clincher for me. I mean, it is hard to describe, because there are different patterns that share the same things, so they are only hints, and nothing definate, BUT, I have been fooled in the past with buying what I thought was a frame(LWO+) overo when he was in fact sabino. If horses look like they could be frame for other reasons, a good indicator will be that color on thewir legs, as seen in this LWO+(frame) mare. She also has sabino going on, in my opinion, and maybe even more, but those legs really made me think she was LWO+. I LOVE the LOUD sabinos...they are so beautiful to look at with their patterns, and you don't have to worry about ever prodicing a LWO foal from breeding them!

This is "Fame", my LWO+ mare...(notice her lower legs for the dark markings I mentioned)

Below are a few examples of sabinos that I own/have owned that may be mixed with other patterns as well.

I know the sabino examples I showed most probably carry others patterns as well, but it was the sabino markings on them that fooled me and yet caught my eye.

 

[sweetheart]

Is it frame that causes the bald face? Or is that unrelated to frame? I have one with two blue eyes and a bald face that extends out beyond the eyes and down over the chin. Solid black colored body and socks on hind legs. I haven't done the LWO test, maybe I should? I guess it doesn't really matter as long as I don't breed to another overo? I would feel so terrible to have a LWO syndrome foal :-(.

 

[AnnaC]

Thanks Mona, the pictures helped a lot. This overo 'colouring' is an exciting new field for me, and I am soaking up any info I can get hold of LOL!!

You may know (you will if you have read my 'address' below!) that we imported little 'Dragon' from Robin of TrueJoyMinis at the end of Jan this year. We are really thrilled with him, plus the fact that he is LWO+.

Now on several threads here I have read that it seems that Rowdy (Dragon's G/S) was LWO+ hence my question about jumping a generation, because I dont believe Lazy N's Boogerman to be LWO+ (Dragon's Sire).

Without getting too muddled here

this must mean that Dragon's LWO+ has come from his dam's side (Darmond IMA GGs Cover Girl Too - s. Mcraes Mr GG - d. D Bar D's Tiffany), so Cover Girl must have carried the gene??

Sorry to ask so many questions! Am facinated by colours, genetics etc.

Anna

 

[targetsmom]

Actually, I think Lazy Ns Boogerman is LWO+, but I would not stake my life on it. I do know of a solid stallion who is LWO+ who has no other likely source of the gene. So my best would be that Boogerman is the source of your boy's LWO gene. Good luck with him! Just be sure you test your mares before you breed to him - especially if they have Rowdy blood. We are learning about this ourselves as we have 5 minis with Rowdy blood - one (the "gray" in new avatar) is LWO+, our stallion Buckshot is LWO-, so we haven't tested the rest. I would bet the black and white gelding (jumping, who is 3/8 Rowdy) is LWO+ along with the red and white mare (driving, descended from Boogerman).

 

[AnnaC]

Thank you Targetsmum. That is really interesting. Nowhere have I seen Boogerman given as LWO+. It would be interesting to hear from anyone with his sons and daughters who have proved to be +!

So far little Dragon is a rarity as an LWO+ here in the UK, and as most of my mares are homebred for several generations, we shall certainly be safe with our breeding programme for a couple of years - but yes I will be testing his offspring.

Anna

 

[Songcatcher]

Is it frame that causes the bald face? Or is that unrelated to frame? I have one with two blue eyes and a bald face that extends out beyond the eyes and down over the chin. Solid black colored body and socks on hind legs. I haven't done the LWO test, maybe I should? I guess it doesn't really matter as long as I don't breed to another overo? I would feel so terrible to have a LWO syndrome foal :-(.

The bald face and blue eyes may be the result of Frame or of Splash. I would certainly test as you might breed to a stallion who carries frame but does not show it.

Most people would not suspect this stallion of carrying Frame, but he is lab tested positive.

 

[wc minis]

Interesting post

I learned alot from this. One question, can one be LWO + if they dont have blue eyes? I tried looking at some of the posted pictures, but hard to tell if they had those beautiful baby blues!!

 

[love_casper]

Interesting post

I learned alot from this. One question, can one be LWO + if they dont have blue eyes? I tried looking at some of the posted pictures, but hard to tell if they had those beautiful baby blues!!

Frame does cause blue eyes, but no a horse doesn't have to have them to be frame. And even if a horse does have blue eyes, they could be caused by something else like splash.

 

[Dona]

Interesting post

I learned alot from this. One question, can one be LWO + if they dont have blue eyes? I tried looking at some of the posted pictures, but hard to tell if they had those beautiful baby blues!!

Most definitely!

Frames can have blue eyes, dark eyes, or one of each!

 

[Dona]

Thank you Targetsmum. That is really interesting. Nowhere have I seen Boogerman given as LWO+. It would be interesting to hear from anyone with his sons and daughters who have proved to be +!

Anna

Well.....Boogerman's sire is Rowdy, a well known LWO carrier who has thrown many Frame Overos. So, with Boogerman having the big white blazed face as well, It is highly possible that he also carries the Frame (LWO) gene.

 

[AnnaC]

Thanks Dona.

Would still like to hear of any direct offspring of Boogermans that have proven to be LWO+ - it would prove the point!

Anna