Among The Uninformed

[Frank]

I am not a person who frequents this forum because I find most of the information presented as facts to be nothing more than unsubstantiated opinions. Below, I have copied two examples.

I would far rather see most of these horses (the protested ones) being used for breeding than the little squashed dwarfy things that people think are perfectly fine to sell to uninformed people, or just perpetuationg a misconception.

We sure could use the genetics of the taller horses so we don't breed ourselves into "Dwarf-dom"!

I guess that I am among the uninformed, because 16 years ago when my wife and I decided miniature horses were where we wanted to be, we settled on a goal of breeding the smallest, most perfect horses that we possibly could. We were ruthless in choosing our breeding stock and almost all of it was proven in the show ring with us as amateur handlers. We went through several stallions and a bunch of mares before we began to see foals born that fit our own standard of excellence. Today, we have an excellent band of small broodmares and two stallions considered among the best by a whole big bunch of folks. I am not here to brag, suffice it to say one of our stallions has sired 9 world top ten horses, one hundred percent of his foals to be shown at a world championship show, and our other stallion had a daughter of his win two world championships and a reserve this year.

By most people’s standards, we would qualify as reasonably successful, serious small scale breeders. What a spray of ice cold water on our program to find out that small equals dwarf. Thank to you for setting me straight! I do have just a couple of questions that you can help me with. I know you will answer me quickly.

1. Since I prefer the small miniature horses, I am uninformed. Help me understand in what way I am uninformed. I have a college degree in zoology and physiology, a minor in chemistry among other things and over 70 hours of post graduate education split about equally between science and business. Before my retirement I had as many as 17 advanced degree veterinarians and PhDs report to me on various projects. I have owned and bred horses for 40 years. I have owned, bred and trained running quarter horses. My wife and our kids showed saddle horses for more years than I can count. Somehow, though, because I prefer the smaller miniature horses, I am uninformed. Please, tell me how, or in what way I am uninformed.

2. It is obvious that many of you equate smallness to dwarfism. My question is, at exactly what height do miniatures become dwarfs? Since you decree that small miniatures are dwarfs/minimal dwarfs, there must be a magical height below which all of you informed people won’t go. It is easy to see how I have been led astray. I have shown numerous 28” and under horses to supreme championships. I have had two different 28” and under senior horses go world top ten in Liberty, classes with over 50 entrants where beauty, grace and motion are used as criteria for judging. So, you see, I seem to always be in a position of showing against taller horses, in both conformation and performance classes, and winning a good bit of the time. I mean, how is this possible? Were all of the judges for the three registries we have shown in first carded in some dwarf registry unknown to me? Please, help me understand this phenomenon.

3. Some years ago, I had the luxury of having a PhD statistician working for me and there were times he simply ran out of things to do. So, in his free time, I put him to work on two questions. This was done back when we were just getting into miniature horses.

3.1. If you have two horses of equal quality and size and one is registered AMHR only and one is registered AMHA only, is there any difference in value between the two? If so, why is there a difference? The answer, remember this was in the early 1990s, was that the AMHA horse was more valuable. The why, whether you like it or not, proved to be that AMHA horses were perceived as being smaller. They were perceived as the true miniatures, so, at least at that time, smallness added value.

3.2. The other project was mathematically more challenging. I wanted to determine what influence the size of the sire and dam had on the size of the offspring. It took a while, but we did arrive at a formula. I will not share that formula with you. Frankly, I paid for it and it is mine. I will tell you that when you breed a stallion to a mare, most of the resulting offspring will be between their two heights. However, some of the foals will be smaller and some will be taller than either parent. So, here is my question. If the AMHA ever goes oversize and it is okay to start breeding 36” or 38” horses, some of the offspring will be taller than either parent. The people who breed those animals will want them to be AMHA registered and the whole thing will keep going until miniature horses have been bred out of existence. So, where does it stop?

4. If smaller equals dwarfism, then taller must be better. At exactly what height do the dwarf genes disappear? Is it 32”, 36” or some other height that magically confers on that horse a completely different genome than all the dwarfy shorter horses? I think where I have become confused is the fact that a few short decades ago, there were no miniature horse registries. There was just a population of miniature horses of various size and conformation. While the genetic background of these animals was varied, most of them shared several common ancestors. So, if the root stock, so to speak, had similar genetic make up, how is it that today, there is a certain height that above which there are no dwarves and below which all or most individuals are terrible creatures unfit to be on this earth? How exactly is that possible?

I want to thank all of you for the wealth in factual and scientific information that I am sure you will send my way. Maybe then I will be able to ascend out of dark abyss of the uninformed

Frank

 

[Denise]

This is one post I look forward to following. Can't wait to see the answers.

Good post!

 

[nootka]

What you're doing is taking offense to something that was presented as part of another argument.

Noone said all small miniatures are dwarfs.

I certainly didn't. Noone said they were "all right" about what causes dwarfism.

When I am looking at a horse and they have certain characteristics (say, an underbite or one twisted foot), then I may look again and see that sire and dam were 33" and maybe 32" yet said foal is 27". That smallness is a characteristic, then, because it is so much smaller than sire and dam and there are OTHER factors. No ONE factor makes them dwarf.

The problem is that with smaller minis, it is harder to find dwarf-symptom free stock, in my observance. I do not breed for small, I dislike the proportions most of the time, but I will tell you that there are a few breeders out there on the right track with proportion as well as tiny size. There are a lot of them out there with their heads somewhere it shouldn't be (awww, so cute the little dwarf is) and breed for the cute factor of tiny, playing with dwarfism very willingly. These are the ones you should be upset with.

Personally, I will any day breed a horse that has a risk of going over before I would EVER breed one that I felt was a dwarf or carrying enough dwarf traits to make me worry about the offspring.. So what if the horse goes "over"?

On the other hand, a genetic cripple is something I could not live with if I ignored the facts I can only guess are close to right. It is all I have right now, in lieu of genetic testing. Thanks for the statistics lesson.

Hope you can figure out that most of us are just stating our opinions through observation and realize it's ok to do so. Dont' get offended or defensive. You are every bit as right as any of us, and entitled to your OPINION, statistics or not.

"If smaller equals dwarfism, then taller must be better. "

I wanted to address this, though. That statement is not true. What is true about it or what you got from what I might have said is that in the taller horses, it is somewhat less likely that there will be dwarfism in the genes just because a symptom of dwarfism is to make the horse smaller at maturity! Ugh...is that hard to understand? I'm sorry if I seem frustrated, it is just that so many have taken offense and from what I can see, several people who have good reason to take offense have indeed taken it. Many others (perhaps even yourself) who I consider to be conscientious, caring and responsible breeders have also taken offense. I can't say that I haven't in some cases at other threads aimed at what I breed for, however, it is not intended so.

I am in awe of those that breed for small and avoid breeding dwarfs because it is much harder, IMO, to breed for small and find the well-proportioned horses, the ones completely free from dwarf characteristics.

What is disheartening is to browse the websites and see obvious dwarfs being used and many of these state their goal as the "smallest horse" possible. I don't see so many in the farms with performance and taller horses as their goals. Just be careful is all any of us is saying. There are so many out there that just don't know. The ones that DO know, I have no sympathy for them, only for the horses they are breeding unnecessarily into lives of pain.

Nice to see you posting!

Liz

 

[Devon]

If your going to make fun of peoples opinions and call them unknowledgeable ; then don't read them none wants to here you say your opinions better than theirs

I Mean that in the nicest way

 

[Relic]

Thankyou l for one found your post very refreshing.

 

[StellaLenoir]

it seems very odd to me how mad people get about others opinions. I have been reading quite a bit on this forum and I do not recall anyone ever saying their opinion was the word of God, only their opinion. Granted, some are educated opinions, and some are not. But all thoughts are of value. With out a variety of thoughts and opinions, we would have a very ignorent and uninteresting world.

I am all for a heated debate, often times it brings out lots of great info. But the personal attacks and the people who get personaly insulted by opinions are sad.

There are so many horrible things in this world. If you want to get angry and exert so much effort on retorts and fighting, there are so many things that things that deserve that attention. Try looking up the Lost Boys, or the horrible things going on in the Congo or the treatment of females in India. But it is not for the faint of heart. These issues could use some well educated thoughtful inspired letters and action.

 

[Songcatcher]

Thank you for posting Frank.

I agree with Liz that everyone has their own preference and that is OK. What bothers me is those who think their preference should also be everyone else's preference also.

If you want to raise a 36 inch horse, fine, do it in a registry in which it fits. If you want to raise a 20 hh horse, do that too, but but don't tell breeders in another registry that they should accept it.

To answer your question regarding where the cut off line is for a dwarf, it is clear that some think it is anything under 34.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

it seems very odd to me how mad people get about others opinions. I have been reading quite a bit on this There are so many horrible things in this world. If you want to get angry and exert so much effort on retorts and fighting, there are so many things that things that deserve that attention.

Here here and thank you for that timely reminder.

I am not sure why any discussion has to turn into someone having to be right and or proving someone else wrong~ I realize this is a passion for all of us but it is just horses after all and some things we will never agree on like stalling, not stalling, razoring, not razoring..... really you are right none of it is life or death and bottom line we can read or not read and continue on our merry path.

After all everyones opinions no matter who they are or how long or not so long years they have been breeding, showing whatever ... all opinions are substantiated in that persons own experience... opinions are just that someones personal experience

 

[user 488]

I am not a person who frequents this forum because I find most of the information presented as facts to be nothing more than unsubstantiated opinions.

Well, it would be nice if only the facts were presented and all the excess posts that are just "speculation" could be weeded out. But this is a Forum and Forums are about opinions whether you agree with them or not.

There are WAY TO MANY THINGS BEING TWISTED HERE (on the subject as a whole)........and it's not doing anyone any good.

I, for one, can pick out the people who know what they are really talking about here. As for the other posts.....well I just disregard them as they only muddy the waters. This is way to confusing for people who don't know anything about dwarfism and trying to learn. I find it sad and even more sad that more people just won't read and listen to those who really have a better handle on this subject than most......IMO.

 

[Jill]

I have hardly been following the recent threads on this subject. I know there's got to have been a lot of bickering just from the many pages of responses.

From my perspective, the type of horse I like comes in both an A and a B division height range. They rarely come in an under 30" range and are the type I like. There's a certain look I like in my miniatures and personally, I'd rather have one standing 38" and be the look I like than one 29" (since I hardly ever like any I've seen under 30").

To each his / her own.

 

[Reijel's Mom]

I'd like to say that I AM truly one of the uninformed (very new to minis, not a breeder, not a shower, still learning lots about confirmation and still learning lots about dwarfism).

I read on this forum regularly, and I guess I can't say I've been left with the impression that there is a large group of folks here who think small automatically equals dwarf. I even recall seeing a post from someone who had a larger mini who they believed to have a lot of dwarf charecteristics.

But like I said I am newer to minis and there could be things that I'm missing.

 

[miniwhinny]

On behalf of my 29 and 31 inch mini's...

THANK YOU, thank you Frank

So very well put

I'd rather have one standing 38" and be the look I like than one 29" (since I hardly ever like any I've seen under 30"). To each his / her own.

Forgive me if I'm wrong here but isn't it time for a new message board...one solely FOR the 34 and under mini's where those of us that LOVE the small miniature can freely share without comments like this. I know everyone is entitled to his/her opinions but why do people really feel the need to just be nasty. Adding those little comments tells a lot about a persons character. They are the comments that can easily be left out but some folks just love to add them in. It's enough when breeders of large horses call mini's deformed midgets but to have supposed small horse lovers doing it to just ruins the fun of having a message board. The attacks...so very well defended by Frank (

) are getting old

 

[Dona]

again.. SOME people reading into more then what was actually written.. No one was pointing out SMALL = DWARF

So sad a group of people feel this forum's members slam small horses and it's breeders.. Sooo NOT TRUE..

So... sad they feel that way.. and I am truly tired of it... tired of defending this forum's members into what some exclusive small horses breeders think of the majority of people here..

Think what you want.... no more comments ever from me again on this topic...

poke me, I am done..

No pokes from me Mary Lou....you know I love you dearly.

But, I don't understand why you feel you need to defend the "LB members"? You seem to be separating the LB members into one group, and those who breed the smaller minis into another. Aren't they ALL members here on the LB Forum?

There always have been, and always will be many of us LB Forum members who disagree in different areas.... sometimes getting heated in the responses....especially on a Forum where the typed word can be easily taken the wrong way, or misconstrued (as noted when the entire threads are removed).

But disagreements happen in the best of families.......and I feel the LB Forum is a group of wonderful people who, yes, may disagree at times just like in any family. But, I think we can all agree that we are all here because of our love for the Miniature Horse.

I just think it's sad to see either side of this topic "profiled" as attacking the other. I'm sure if you ask, you'll find people on both sides of this topic who feel they have been unjustly attacked. OH!

To paraphrase......"Can't we ALL just try to be a little understanding & get along?"

 

[Leeana]

Just going to remove my post before its taken the wrong way

.

I agree with Jill, call me uninformed, but when i go out to feed in the morning i will be happy knowing what is out there is what i like even if they are not 'true miniature horses' to some and are over 34''.

 

[maestoso]

Thank you Frank! What I find interesting is that many of you are calling out Frank for being defensive and getting mad about many of the posts. But, almost immediately after Frank posted there were several replies, that in my opinion, easily qualify as being written with anger and defense. So you are retorting with the very characteristics in which you discourage of others, seems a little weird to me.

Its easy to say "well don't be so defensive it is just my opinion" but it is also easy to post in a manner that isn't insulting and condescending to others, but many posters don't seem to catch on to that.

Im with Frank. And it's not because I am uninformed. And frankly, I am not really on the defense because I have sort of given up trying on this board when it comes to certain things. I love following many of the posts, and learn a lot. But it is also very clear that there is a "clique" of members that post to everything and almost always post with their air of knowing all, because they have this many years of experience, blah blah blah. But that's just my opinion, please don't get defensive.

Those of "us" who "get defensive" or "alter the meaning" when it comes to your posts, it is not because you are presenting your opinion, it is because you take it upon yourselves to let the rest of us know how the miniature world is, the direction it should be going, and how the rest of us should go about our breeding program. WHO ARE YOU???? It is not up to you to decide what "should" be bred unless it is your own horse or unless someone is specifically asking for your advice.

I have read these threads enough to know what the first reaction will be, and I know who the posts will be from. You will say, "I want what is best for the breed" And maybe you DO present much of what you say as opinions, but many of you DO seem to know exactly what is best for the breed, and you definitely DONT present that much as opinion. The thing is, what you think is best for the breed is exactly that, a thought, of yours, but the attitude you have of knowing all is far worse to the miniature horse community then someone breeding a mare with a short neck.

 

[Mona]

...and then there are some folks like me that would LOVE to be able to breed the SMALL ones, but unfortunately, without a competent vet and facilities in case of emergencies (been there, done that!), I have decided no more "tinies" for me. This is another reason as to why SOME people might prefer the taller minis. All of mine are between 33 and 35.5". Even though there are no guarantees that no foaling emergencies will occur, I do feel it will reduce the risks. I would not be as afraid to face/take those risks, if I had good back-up in way of a good equine vet/facilities, which I don't. SO I breed what I feel comfortable with breeding, so I can enjoy my horses the way I want to.

 

[Tony]

Thank you so much, Frank, for your excellent post. According to some, I believe, I am one of the "uninformed" too, but since I have had horses for over sixty years, and miniatures for over almost forty-five, I guess I will continue being an "old dog" that just won't learn new tricks.

 

[nootka]

It is one thing to be educated and informed and to make a conscious decision to keep doing things the way you were even if you have discovered things that might be risky about it.

It is entirely another to go about it in an ignorant fashion (I mean no disrespect in that word, merely that one can ignore or not be aware of things they should be) and then be surprised when something they risked went wrong.

What IS for the best of this breed is healthy, sound animals with a good quality of life. If one can't offer that, then yes, I feel they are not bettering the breed and really probably don't have a reason to BE breeding.

That is the truth of how I feel, and I doubt most would disagree. Doesn't matter the size, color or pedigree, not even the registry you aim for. It's a basic right, if you will, of those that can't read and write (I would hope).

I have opinions based on other aspects, but those are mine. Yes, I have ideas as to how I wish things would go, and I am basing my own breeding program and activities within the breed on those opinions (such as who I breed, what I breed and what I do with them), and I make 'em known now and then in hopes that others would maybe see the virtue in what I am doing and adopt some of the practices for themselves. This is only because I think some of them are for the betterment of the breed.

If one isn't going to do as I would wish they would do, doesn't mean I don't like them, or don't want to listen to what they have to say, it is just a difference of opinion.

It is interesting the people that have jumped on this hyper-reactive bandwagon, though. Obviously, you know full well what you are doing and are fully informed, making decisions that are in the best interest of your animals. That is what it's all about, but when we do get defensive, we likely aren't learning anything. At least that's how it is for me.

We are all different. From the breeders that breed intentionally for dwarfs because they bring in the $$$ to the ones that can't see fit to breed anymore because there's no money in well-made, show-quality horses, we all have choices and the ability to modify those choices however we like.

Liz

 

[miniwhinny]

Thank you Matt

...and Tony ((((HUGS)))) to you and your awesome herd

Mona, thank you too. We all love what we love and are trying our best to raise the most perfect horses, bigger mini or small. Why people have to attack those that they don't choose themselves is beyond me (well not really...in our hearts we all know why people do it, right guys

)

I used to think we were all on the same side here

 

[Arion Mgmt]

Frank,

I would really like to sit down some time and have some discussions on breeding practices and genetic inheritance. Genetic inheritance follows statistical laws, that is well proven and explained in basic genetic books and breeding and inheritance books. What I want to know is why you paid a PhD in Statistics to look something up in a Genetics book that was a well known statistical law in regards to genetic inheritance and quantitative traits involving height in a population or pair? You should have already known that with your degree in Zoology. No one needs to ask you for that info they just need to get a book with information on basic breeding and inheritance patterns.

Yes there are some VERY small horses that are just that, small, and do not carry any dwarf gene, and will never produce a dwarf. Same is seen in humans that are just small and not due to a dwarf gene of any kind. These heights variances are well known in a large breeding population, a bell shaped curve in heights produced, a quantitative trait involving a large number of genes, what I referred to above.

What some might look at as small and "normal" some others look at as poor conformed non-functional animals, some of these horses might just be bad horses, some might be dwarfs, and some are fine and well conformed but with them being so small, they really do not have the functional abilities most people look at in a horse, i.e. being able to do certain performance that is expected of a horse, driving, hunter or jumper. Some do move well for their size, these small horses really are something that is only to look at, which dont get me wrong, that is what all other large horse people say about all miniature horses. But these really small horses really cannot perform like a horse even at 32". Yes there are large horses you just look at and admire in the field, i.e. halter Quarter horse stallion, and if that is want you want then by all means go for it.

No one knows the prevalence of the dwarf genes and the types, and there is more than one type, those are the issues I am working on in my graduate studies. It is known that some smaller miniature horses have dwarfs (so do some larger Miniatures), and most people know that dwarf characteristics involve small stature. So some people, especially ones that dont have much knowledge in horse conformation, are going to assume the smaller horses are more likely to carry the gene or are a dwarf. That is unfortunate because some people are not trying to learn proper basic animal breeding practices and correct horse conformaion.

Some of us might not have an educated eye, and some of us might have a very educated eye. And some of us will say things that they have no knowledge in and stick their whole leg in their mouth, not just their foot!! And others will try to bring a little reason and understanding to a topic. Since unfortunately for you most of the Miniature horse breeders in the world do not really try to breed for under 28" horses, most of us wonder why some try to breed for those small horses only, others praise them.

I personally do not try to breed for them, not because they are not worth it or that they are dwarfs, I want to breed for taller horses that can do what a big horse can, generally, in performance, i.e. driving.

So for your concern with the maximum being raised, what if the maximum was 30", would you have the same opinion? Knowing what you have paid for in a formula, some of your foals will go over and now not be an AMHA Miniature horse, better yet , a "true" Miniature, as some say. So would you say that your 31" horse you produced cant produce a horse under 30" when bred to a horse under 30". Your formula will give you an answer that yes it will, and the percentage might not be over 50%, it might not be over 25%, it might only be 15% (depends on height variance of parents and ancestors in pedigree), but if that 31" horse is the best horse conformationally that you have produced, then I would think you would have a different opinion than you do now.

As to your comment about questioning at what height does the dwarf gene dissappear, well again you should already know that answer, No one knows, I have seen a 35" mare have a dwarf, she was bred to a carrier, because she was so tall the owner was assuming there would be no problem, well the mare just so happen to have some characteristics, and had a known carrier in her pedigree. Taller height does NOT gaurantee no dwarf. We, I hope, as a whole are trying to breed for the best conformed Miniatures, I am trying to breed for a type as well, without any guidelines from my Assoc. I am going for what I know the majority is breeding for, and for what I like.

If you bred running Quarter Horses and Saddlehorses for over 40 yrs., you for one should see the forest thru the trees.

Quote

" there is a certain height that above which there are no dwarves and below which all or most individuals are terrible creatures unfit to be on this earth? How exactly is that possible? "

So did you get that from the researcher that said in 3000 yrs the human race would be two different species super humans and then dwarf like creatures??

Quote

"The answer, remember this was in the early 1990s, was that the AMHA horse was more valuable. The why, whether you like it or not, proved to be that AMHA horses were perceived as being smaller. They were perceived as the true miniatures, so, at least at that time, smallness added value."

That is something the AMHA promoted for years that they were the only registry for true Miniatures. Since the AMHR at the time was put down as the misfits and unwanted over miniatures and small shetlands and the ASPC were brilliant in taking all of them in. They for one knew why these horse were there, and now with more thaan a few million dollars in the bank, because of the AMHR, ASPC now is well in control of the future of the Miniatures.

As for the Miniatures raising the height and then getting taller and taller Miniatures until they are gone, it wont happen. There are already registries for horses that go over 38" it is called the NSPR, owned by you guessed it ,ASPC. The point most of the people are talking about is to have a breeding section, knowing that the overs can produce unders if bred right.

What is your opinion if I wanted to hardship a beautiful 28" horse into the AMHA and it had parents that were over 34"?

Your quote

"I want to thank all of you for the wealth in factual and scientific information that I am sure you will send my way. Maybe then I will be able to ascend out of dark abyss of the uninformed."

As for making that comment, if that is how you feel, maybe no one that likes that taller horses will be able to have an intelligent conversation with you.

I look forward to your comments to my answers and questions.

Respectfully,

John E. Eberth

B.A. in Biology, minor in biochemistry

currently working on my M.S. and PhD in Equine Genetics (at the same time) at the University of Kentucky Maxwell H. Gluck Equine Research Center with 93 hours of classes finished.

Owner Arion Management Inc.

showing and breeding Miniatures for over 28 yrs. and I think I have done a pretty good job at that.

Licensed AMHA judge and currently working on my AMHR and ASPC card