AMHR

[MindyLee]

I dont know if its me but... (I'm still learning)

It seems like in the AMHR, smaller miniatures are going to become extinct. I see mostly shetlands in the Journal anymore and even with the stallion sweepstacks, I see many shetlands there as well. I know that miniatures will always be around and many breeders who are dedicated to smaller miniature horses who are registered to AMHR. But with ASPC being such a big trend, is it going to put the smaller AMHR miniatures on the back burner? I see so many breeders adding or even switching to ASPC to their herds and more smaller known stallions being sold or even gelded and replaced with a fresh new ASPC stallion or stallions instead.

* Now I know that it wont change the minds of die-hard miniature breeders to stick with what they want to breed for, but will it hurt them in the future?

* And I know that the future holds a whole new world of new miniature shetlands for the future, but where dose that leave the smaller equine if most follow the trend?

From my own personal experiances... I see way more larger "B" and or shetland/shetland cross in the showring with way bigger classes then a smaller 32" under class unless you go to AMHA.

- I would like to here your intake of how miniatures verses shetlands are for you.

- Did you switch, breed for both, or stick with smaller?

- Do you agree or disagree with me?

 

[Minimor]

Thing is, what you see in the Journal are the paid advertisements--and the people advertising most just happen to be those that have the ASPC/AMHR horses. Look on horseshowsonline at the results from Nationals, and check out the entry numbers for the classes--the small size division classes are still very large. At our local shows, the small size divisions still get the most entries.

For myself, the trend makes no difference. I have no ASPC/AMHR horses, but I do have almost all over division AMHR horses. Only 3 or 4 are actually 34" or under. Most of mine are in the 36" to 38" range. I do have Shetlands, but they are too tall to be registered as Miniatures--they are all in the 40 to 44" size range. If I do sometime get an ASPC pony that can get its R papers, I want it to be a Mini sized Shetland that looks like a Shetland, rather than a Mini....I don't have any desire to have an ASPC pony that looks like a Mini--and I do definitely see a difference. Many of the ASPC/AMHR horses do look more like minis than ponies. There are a few Minis that are AMHR but look like they are Shetland--those are the minis I like!

I don't share your concern that the ASPC ponies are going to push the smaller AMHR horses out. There will always be those that want the small ones, and I'm sure that there are breeders who will always breed for the small size.

 

[S Bar P]

I think the breed is just going through a phase and like said before that is what is popular right now and that is where the advertizing dollars are coming from. Every aspect of livestock that we have been involved with has gone through cycles be it show cattle, sheep, hog, or horses. A good horse is still a good horse and will bring good money from the right buyer. Stick to a solid breeding program and be patient is the best advise I ever had given to me.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I wouldn't take what you see in the Journal to heart. Where you should go is at Nationals and see the other competition there. But yes there are still going to be alot of shetlands there.

Sure the AMHR/ASPC horse is popular now but I think soon it will equal out. There is always going to be buyers out there that want the 34" AMHR under horse out there. The way I see it is AMHR itself is just going to gain more in popularity.

Also I think people are going to have to decide whether or not they want to stick with A and R or just one or the other. People aren't going to beable to afford both registeries much anymore due to the economy and they are going to have to choose. Not saying all people but some. The benefit about AMHR is if you do both AMHR/ASPC only one membership. I had to choose cause I couldn't afford it so I choose R.

I don't think the AMHR/ASPC horse is a trend, I think its here to stay, but I don't think the miniatures will be pushed out, as long as people breed for what they WANT. I do think the Over horse will gain in popularity. But I don't think the Under horse will EVER go away. Its a popular size for kids and adults alike. They are still the biggest classes at Nationals.

 

[LaVern]

I too think that the Shetland influence has had a impact on our smaller Amhr horses. I guess because we have always bred for the 36 inch straight miniature horse I haven't thought about it much. I think that in a few years when AMHA closes I will simple register my little ones with AMHA. And the taller ones with AMHR. I don't think it will be worth it to register my AMHR A's with AMHR. I have always hated having to register a horse with two outfits. It seems to me like throwing money away.

I have to disagree with Minimor this time. I have spent a lot of time looking at the miniature Shetlands and once they get down in size-- they look the same as any straight miniature horse.

It doesn't matter how many darn sets of papers they have, a thirty inch horse or pony looks like one and the same to me.

 

[Minimor]

I have to disagree with Minimor this time. I have spent a lot of time looking at the miniature Shetlands and once they get down in size-- they look the same as any straight miniature horse.

I don't think we are actually disagreeing. Not completely anyway. What I was trying to say is that most of the ASPC ponies that fit into the AMHR size do look just like straight Miniatures. Certainly there are plenty of them that I would take to be straight Miniature if I didn't know that they do also have ASPC papers. Some I would think may be ASPC, but without seeing the papers I wouldn't put any money on it that they are or aren't. And there are a few that look quite obvious. However, I've also seen a few straight Miniatures that I would think are ASPC.

 

[LaVern]

Yeah, we are in agreement as usual. I think that the Shetland influence is also going to be very strong in the future because it is the only outside influence we can have.

What saddens me - and it is changing- is all the wonderful B straight stallions that perhaps could have improved things so much. So many beautiful stallions were gelded while a shorter less quality one was used. Or in AMHA they were hidden behind the barn and used.

What the Shetland influence has done that I think is so wonderful is said that -hey a B stallion is great. And even though they are Shetlands- when they are being shown in AMHR they are just that Miniature AMHR B studs.

I know of two people just recently that have purchased straight B Stallions. All they care about is the look and disposition to show and handle.

 

[LaVern]

Just got to thinking about something else. I went back as far as 96. That was about the time that the Shetland influence started becoming more prevalent. Express and his son Prince are the only Straight miniatures that have taken the Over Stallion Grand away from the Shetlands.

Now I don't think that they are the only ones that could have. But they were two that were promoted and had excellent trainers and handlers. The Shetland people have done a very good job of promoting their horses and that is what it takes. Once we get over this thing that a B horse has to have a bunch of papers to be a winner, I think that they will start coming out of the wood work.

Oh, I was wrong there was a Bob son that won it too, but he never went over 33 inches, I don't think.

 

[HGFarm]

I dont think the A sized horses are going to become pushed out. I just see them getting better over the years.

Also, I dont understand what a 'straight Mini' looks like.... most Minis ARE from Shetland lines, or a good portion of them. How many foundation Miniatures in AMHA were Shetland or had strong Shetland influence? Hmmm, Rowdy, Gold Melody Boy, Roan Ranger, Skip A Star, Whittmaacks Mickey Mouse, Lazy N Boogerman, Little Man, Redboy, Alvadars Double Destiny, Shadow Oaks Top Banana, Shadow Oaks Paul Bunyan, Shadow Oaks Cock Robin, Buckaroo, Sids Rebel, many of the Johnstons breeding, etc.... and how many were 'hardshipped' in with no known background because they were Shetland and folks just didnt want to admit it? I see a big difference in conformation from horse to horse, but to refer to a Mini as a 'straight Mini'.... well I dont believe there is such a thing. They all came from somewhere else and much was from Shetlands. There was a time that it apparently just wasn't ''cool'' to admit it.

I agree, the Nationals classes are not tiny, and the classes here seem about even, or have been in the past. I have not seen any decline in the A sizes. I do admit there are a LOT of might fine B horses out there........

 

[kaykay]

This topic seems to come up every few months. I do not believe we ever have to worry about a shortage of under miniatures. The numbers are HUGE. I just wish we could all get away from saying "miniatures vs shetlands" as it divides us all. I love all small equine no matter what papers they have.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS!

Also, I dont understand what a 'straight Mini' looks like.... most Minis ARE from Shetland lines, or a good portion of them. How many foundation Miniatures in AMHA were Shetland or had strong Shetland influence? Hmmm, Rowdy, Gold Melody Boy, Roan Ranger, Skip A Star, Whittmaacks Mickey Mouse, Lazy N Boogerman, Little Man, Redboy, Alvadars Double Destiny, Shadow Oaks Top Banana, Shadow Oaks Paul Bunyan, Shadow Oaks Cock Robin, Buckaroo, Sids Rebel, many of the Johnstons breeding, etc.... and how many were 'hardshipped' in with no known background because they were Shetland and folks just didnt want to admit it? I see a big difference in conformation from horse to horse, but to refer to a Mini as a 'straight Mini'.... well I dont believe there is such a thing. They all came from somewhere else and much was from Shetlands. There was a time that it apparently just wasn't ''cool'' to admit it.

I adore you Lavern but will never agree on your "straight miniatures" Most of them do go back to a shetland. Its just a fact that a lot dont want to admit. I laugh so hard when I see sale ads that say "pure miniature no shetland" grandson of Buckeroo. Hellooooooooooooooooo buckeroo came from some of the most famous shetlands out there!!!

Kay

 

[LaVern]

Oh, Boy here we go. Well, I don't know what a Shetland is supposed to look like either. And it doesn't seem like the people that raise them know either. They have been fighting about it for so many years they had to come up with three different types.

Now as for my Straight Miniature name, I just think it sounds great. Straight to me- means honest -walk the line -play by the rules-tell it like it is- all American And I don't think there is a more honest-in size and honest in pedigree - horse out there, than the Straight B miniature horse.

If some are going to brag that their horses are better because they are Miniature Shetlands Ponies good for them. You have to believe that what you are raising is the best.

And I believe that mine are the best, and I think the word Straight suits them.

I wasn't going to say this and I know I am going to take a beating, but here goes, another reason I like the word straight is because it is the opposite of crooked, and that is what I feel about a lot of the pedigree of the Shetland Ponies and the size that they are being measured into our registry. There I said it.

 

[Minimor]

I think Kay & some are missing the point of what I posted. The straight Minis I refer to are those that don't have Shetland papers. There haven't been shetland papers in their pedigrees for several generations, or at least not many, perhaps there's a Gold Melody Boy or one or two other known Shetlands a few lines back, but there may be other breeding there too. Some people complain that these "non-Shetlands" don't have a hope of winning anything against those horses that do have their ASPC papers as well--because the shetlands are taller, longer legged, more refined or whatever the complaints are. These people claim to see a big difference and say that it isn't fair. In many cases I just don't see that much of a difference--and I maintain that in many cases if you don't know the horse does or doesn't have 2 sets of papers you won't be able to tell if he does or doesn't just by looking at him.

Some people look at some AMHR horses & are convinced that they must have ASPC papers too, because they are taller & longer legged and/or more refined than some others. Others look at some of the ASPC/AMHR horses and think oh, those don't have ASPC papers, they don't look like real Shetlands to me--they're no longer legger or taller or refined than those AMHR horses over there.

Of course the Mini breed is based on Shetland ponies, but there are other things in there too, in many of them...and also something to consider--many of the tiny Shetlands that were the foundation of the Miniatures were a far cry from the Shetlands that we see winning at Congress now. I suspect that there were very few Modern type Shetlands that were used as foundation breeding animals for the Miniatures! I've been on a few Shetland pony farm websites where I looked at the pictures & said those look like Miniatures, not Shetlands...and I've been on Shetland websites where the ponies were, to my way of thinking, obviously NOT Miniatures...but I'm off topic here, the intent of my post was to clarify what I meant previously by "straight Miniature"!

 

[raine]

I am not as experienced as most people on here but what i can say is that most or all miniatures came from the same begining and a lot of those papers that say unknown are not unknown but for some reason we arnt allowed to know!!!!!!!!!!!

What does it matter whom they are registered with as long as they are great little horses...this is such a big hang up in Europe.....it really is something that gets me going

just my personal opinion..........

 

[kaykay]

If some are going to brag that their horses are better because they are Miniature Shetlands Ponies good for them. You have to believe that what you are raising is the best.

I dont think a horse having aspc/amhr papers automatically makes the better at all. Papers dont make the horse. I have seen plenty of aspc/amhr I wouldnt want if they were free. And I have seen plenty of B or A miniatures I would buy in a heart beat. To me a great horse is a great horse regardless of papers

I wasn't going to say this and I know I am going to take a beating, but here goes, another reason I like the word straight is because it is the opposite of crooked, and that is what I feel about a lot of the pedigree of the Shetland Ponies and the size that they are being measured into our registry. There I said it.

There have been a lot of "crooked" miniature papers too. Cheating crosses all lines. Its not just a shetland issue. Until we are required to do DNA and parent qualify there will always be issues with cheaters.

The thing I have always thought was so great about ASPC/AMHR was that there is a place for everyone and every horse no matter what size you like.

I just hate that we constantly divide ourselves by using this shetland vs mini and pony people vs mini people. Its a huge dis service to all of us. Its in all of our best interest not to divide ourselves.

 

[JWC sr.]

A good horse is a good horse and if I see a characteristic that I need in our breeding herd to produce the best small equine I can, we buy it and incorporate it into our program regardless of which set of registration papers it may have.

We own all three types, AMHA, ASPC and AMHR horses with a few pinto registered horses thrown in. I personally like the B size and Shetland horses, Cindy likes the 34"and under horses. We both also get a real kick out of the 30" and under horses!! We manage to enjoy all of them not for just the sizes, but because we are committed to our horses and enjoy producing the best ones we can.

In my feeble mind why it always comes down to MINI vs Shetland is somewhat silly in that as Kay said the shetland bloodlines are to be found thru out the entire pedigrees of all of our miniatures as we know them today. A couple of other stallions she forgot to mention are Jane Macon's Sir stallion and Orion.

Bottom line is that all those mentioned stallions and many more are all beautiful and all bring different things to the breeding pen. In my mind we should as a breed or breeds if you will be striving for the most conformationally correct horse that has the ability to do well in halter, driving and performance all rolled into one small package. Easier said than done as we all know.

Someone that can show me a mini with 8 or 10 generations of nothing but miniature breeding and no shetland influence anywhere in them would sure be hard to find. I know within our herd we can't and I bet we have more bloodlines than most folks have to work with.

Back in the beginning we all made the choice to work with and love smaller than normal equine and I truly wish we could all understand in the big scheme of things that Shetlands, AMHR and AMHA horses are exactly that "small equine" and as such we should be able to find enough common ground for all of us to stand on.

Divided we are not as strong as we are united by the common love of little horses. I hope and pray that remains the one uniting factor in all these discussions.

 

[LaVern]

Oh, I agree with you about cheaters in the miniature world too, before DNA and even since. Bu,t not so much with the B's . I think we have highjacked this thread so I am going to start another one

because I really have some things I do disagree with you about. What to call it, hummm? I know LaVern and Kaykay Duke it Out.

 

[ruffian]

Yeah, we are in agreement as usual. I think that the Shetland influence is also going to be very strong in the future because it is the only outside influence we can have. What saddens me - and it is changing- is all the wonderful B straight stallions that perhaps could have improved things so much. So many beautiful stallions were gelded while a shorter less quality one was used. Or in AMHA they were hidden behind the barn and used.

What the Shetland influence has done that I think is so wonderful is said that -hey a B stallion is great. And even though they are Shetlands- when they are being shown in AMHR they are just that Miniature AMHR B studs.

I know of two people just recently that have purchased straight B Stallions. All they care about is the look and disposition to show and handle.

LaVern what exactly do you mean by a "straight" B Stallion?

When AMHA was created, it was to "minimize" an equine to look like a small under 34" horse.

What I see happening - I M O - is there are going to be a lot of horses that are being bred to B sized stallions that are going to go over 38". Many of the Sweepstakes stallions were 36" and bigger. How are they going to improve the breed if their offspring can't/shouldn't be registered. If they don't have ASPC papers, they become grade horses. Enough of those are going to be out there and there is going to be a strong movement to raise the limit to 39, or 40, or whatever. I - I repeat - I would never breed to a stallion over 34". I already have several horses that were supposedly out of under 34" stock that I would pretty much guarantee aren't. When a colt is born out of a 33" mare, and turns out 37", and there are consistently other offspring by the same stallion that go way over 34 or 38", there's something fishy.

Again I M O I see a big difference in the temperament of what I will call True miniatures - those that don't have close up ASPC papers - compared to those who are AMHR/ASPC papered. Maybe I'm crazy (Heck I know that's True!) but to me a a miniature horse and a shetland pony are 2 different breeds.

 

[kaykay]

What I see happening - I M O - is there are going to be a lot of horses that are being bred to B sized stallions that are going to go over 38". Many of the Sweepstakes stallions were 36" and bigger. How are they going to improve the breed if their offspring can't/shouldn't be registered. If they don't have ASPC papers, they become grade horses.

I have heard this argument used a lot but the truth is it doesnt add up. You can do all the math you want and you research pedigrees all you want and you will still not be able to accurately predict height in miniatures. I have seen it for too long. Like when my 34.5" amha mare (from all small amha breeding) produces ALL 34" and under even when bred to my 36.5" aspc/amhr stallion. So taking this as example how in the heck did this amha mare from all 34" and under mini breeding grow to almost 35"?? And why when bred to even taller stallions does she consistently produce under 34" foals?? Figure that one out

Or how about this little girl. Baxters Black Fashionista. Dam is 38" on the nose. Sire is 36.5" Fashionista is ASPC/AMHR. I just measured her 2 days ago and she is 30.25" as a yearling. Again you cannot predict height on these guys. Number one the pedigrees too many times list false heights (along with wrong colors) And just for the record NO I was not trying to breed an under shetland. I was breeding for a great looking miniature/shetland. Now I have no way of knowing what she will mature and I am not even going to try and predict. I keep thinking she will shoot up but now Im not so sure. Will post new pics when shes clipped soon

 

[ohmt]

Kaykay-I have a 34.5" mare that has also only produced foals under 34" and she has only been bred to stallions 34"-36.5". The filly she had by the 36.5" stallion ended up being 33". The mare is ALL 32" or under for 3 generations so who knows where her height came from.

On the other end, I have a yearling filly that is 33" and her dam is one of my smallest mares measuring 28.75" (she has given me 2 colts that were under 28" and a filly that matured at 29") and her sire is 30". WHERE in the world did the height come from?? I have no idea because she goes back 4 generations with nothing but homebred horses in her pedigree. I breed for only 34" and under so it beats me. She's beautiful though-definitely a keeper

You just never know with height!

 

[MindyLee]

Hey all!!!

I did'nt want to start a fight! And Im sorry if I offended anyone with "mini vrs shetlands" BUT I was just asking a few questions and some input from both sides.

Im sorry but I see a differance between minis and shetlands. YES I know that minis came from shetlands but I thought that minis are supposed to look like little horses and that shetlands are supposed to be a bit bigger and with more high leg movment almost resembling a perfect smaller race horse (standerbred?) maybe...

And like I said in the beginning... I see way more shetland/shetland cross being advertised them amhr miniatures now these days everywhere. Someone stated only because the owners of that shetland is ppaying for the adds AND I totally know that. BUT Like I said, these farms who advertise these shetlands used to advertise miniatures but switched.

I just was wondering if all these miniature breeders switch to taller minis/shetlands after being into minis for sooo long, and it being a trend/phase, how many will continue to do so and will it make mini breeders far in between (fewer in quanitys to find). Another post from awhile back stated ONLY CERTIAN FOLKS SHOULD BREED BECAUSE THEY HAVE SOME OF THE BEST TO BETTER THE BREED INSTEAD OF THE BACK YARD BREEDERS.... Well if our so named mini breeders switch to shetlands who would you want a mini from then? Now who would you go to if they dont have minis and most of your opptions now breed shetlands when you want mini. All I was sayin is I just wanted to know with my seeing in the Journel, internet, mini sites now having shetlands & exc.... I just was wondering if eventally will minis be on the back burner?

In my area alone... we have several smaller mini farms that will remain 34" under and folks who say they will never get a "B" size or shetland. Well one of them folks who is a die hard small mini person just bought their 1st shetland stallion and now looking for mares for him. And this persons pride n joy 29" show mini is now a pasture pet.

I guess its just hard to type what Im thinking as its just not the same as voiceing it...