All this talk about dwarfs

[Sue_C.]

We are assuming that it takes two sides of the gene to produce a dwarf, which is why people tend to try again with the mare with a different stallion, rather than discard the mare outright.As I said in a different thread when we found Von Willebrands was rife in Dobes we did not discard all carriers as this is a defect that is not straightforward- you can have Clear, Affected and Carrier.Clear X Carrier will only produce Clear or Carrier, never Affected.

Suppose Dwarfism turns out to be like this??

What we desperately need at this stage in the game with no test available and, because of head in the sand syndrome not likely to come along soon due to lack of research funds, is HONESTY!!!

Problem here is, like you say...there is no test...so WE DON'T KNOW WHO IS A CARRIER, until they've produced a dwarf. As for the "who is the carrier, stallion-mare-or BOTH...I feel that both must be carriers; better safe than sorry.

I will stand by my statement that should we produce a dwarf...I will not hide it, will geld/spay the parents, or keep the mare or lease her to a non-breeding home. I will also inform past buyers to caution them, of the potential carrier that I sold them.

It is the best I can do.

 

[anita]

To rabbitsfizz: My experience and just MHO is dwarf syndrom is like mongolism ( ......syndrom, gene 21) in

humans

Compared to my other fillies, Gloria doesn't know fear, her voice is deap, she always looks

what the others do than she does it, sleeps a lot, always in a good mood. Well she knows her

name, stand still for farrier work, got halter on and knows it ever since. Gloria never

never bothers me but the others do. That also makes her so cute.

To Frankie: Like I said all love Gloria and so her farrier. He asked " What do you want for her?" I know he

has big horses only. I thought a high price scares him $ 3000.00 and he says: "Yes, I take her"

Only because she is soooo cute people pay everything.

Am I ashamed of my dwarf ? NO neither of her parents.

Would I be ashamed if she or her mother gets dumped on a cheap sale or rescue? YES

If I could post pix you could see my special girl

Anita

 

[rabbitsfizz]

No Anita, Dwarfism in any animal has NO connection to Downs Syndrome.

Downs Syndrome is caused by an EXTRA 1/2 chromosome (this is a very simplified version of the whole thing) attached and does NOT need both parents carrying it and is not even hereditary.

It happens spontaneously most of the time, in women over 40 years old.

There is a form that is thought to "run in families" and therefore possibly have some associated hereditary issues, but it is normally associated with late life babies and has nothing at all to do with dwarfism.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

To rabbitsfizz: My experience and just MHO is dwarf syndrom is like mongolism ( ......syndrom, gene 21) in

humans

Compared to my other fillies, Gloria doesn't know fear, her voice is deap, she always looks

what the others do than she does it, sleeps a lot, always in a good mood. Well she knows her

name, stand still for farrier work, got halter on and knows it ever since. Gloria never

never bothers me but the others do. That also makes her so cute.

Anita

I am floored that you have said that!

From the time she was born many who worked with Sadie our dwarf we had said the EXACT same thing including myself and the MANY top vets we had working on her. One of who has a child with Downs Syndrome. We have many times made the connection between personality traits of dwarves and downs syndrome not sure why there seems to be one and if there is a medical reason for it ori t is just a coincidence however I have noticed it in more then just Sadie

 

[Dona]

No Anita, Dwarfism in any animal has NO connection to Downs Syndrome.

Downs Syndrome is caused by an EXTRA 1/2 chromosome (this is a very simplified version of the whole thing) attached and does NOT need both parents carrying it and is not even hereditary.

It happens spontaneously most of the time, in women over 40 years old.

There is a form that is thought to "run in families" and therefore possibly have some associated hereditary issues, but it is normally associated with late life babies and has nothing at all to do with dwarfism.

I may be wrong Jane, but I believe that Anita meant the "personalities" of Dwarfs & Downs Syndrome children were much alike....not that the actual conditions are linked in any way.

:

 

[HGFarm]

I have only known a couple of dwarfs, and they were not like a 'downs' child at all.... very smart and quick to think- just problems with the body

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I had not thought of that, Dona, although I did read the post carefully as I know I am oversensitive on these subjects, but I have to agree with HG- there's still no comparison.

I have known many Downs people with varying degrees of handicap but Dwarves are not handicapped mentally at all, if anything, quite the opposite.

 

[anita]

Thanks Donna, I meant the dwarves personalities.

Anita

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I had not thought of that, Dona, although I did read the post carefully as I know I am oversensitive on these subjects, but I have to agree with HG- there's still no comparison.

I have known many Downs people with varying degrees of handicap but Dwarves are not handicapped mentally at all, if anything, quite the opposite.

Well I have to state that maybe there hasnt been any comparison THAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED however that doesnt mean that others including myself can say the same. I have learned that just because something isnt MY TRUTH it sure doesnt mean it isnt SOMEONES TRUTH

 

[kaykay]

i did read an article once a few years ago about some dwarfs showing mild mental retardation. I have seen a couple myself I would say were mildy retarded. I knew one that would always urinate on her own tail because she didnt have enough sense like a "normal" horse to lift her tail to urinate. Physically she was quite capable of lifting her tail just didnt.

ive met others that just never seemed mentally mature. Always very yearling like despite their age.

so i can definately see where Anita is seeing the two being similiar

 

[Margo_C-T]

Not sure what you mean by "two sides of the gene", Jane? However, what you spoke of in Dobermans is very possibly exactly the same KIND of thing that is happening genetically to produce dwarves in Miniature horses! That would be, that the gene or gene 'group' that is responsible is a 'simple' recessive-which, to put it more simply than it may well be???-means that when an animal carries only ONE copy, there is no manifestation of characteristics, but when a fetus gets TWO copies(one from each parent), then the characteristic will be manifested in the that offspring.No, we do NOT 'KNOW' if this Mendelian model actually IS what is happening, but it is likely, based on what IS already known! Of COURSE, this is why research IS needed!

When you cite being able to determine that an animal is 'Clear, Affected, or Carrier'--well, YEAH! This is almost CERTAIN to be what IS going on with miniature horses and dwarfism-and that the cause of dwarfism will indeed prove to be exactly this! When there is a genetic test to determine which one any given miniature horse IS, then anyone conscientiously breeding miniatures could almost certainly make sure that no further dwarves were born...how? By exactly what you said--breeding only KNOWN 'Clear' to KNOWN 'Clear', or KNOWN 'Clear' to KNOWN 'Carrier'! You would not produce any dwarves, though you might well produce more 'Carriers'. I believe this is exactly what is being done in Arabians, with CID, and in American Quarter Horses, with HYPP-with research, both the genetic cause AND how to identify which horses carried the gene,was identified. Then, a program was instituted to try to insure, basically, that 'Carriers' are NEVER bred to 'Carriers'! I don't know how controlled their programs are-that is, whether it is RULES, or just 'suggestions'-from what I've read, AQHA is moving to not allowing ANYTHING that tests positive for even one copy of the HYPP gene to be bred, period(or at least, no such offspring would be registered); don't know about the Arabian registry-but do know, that if I were shopping for either breed, I would want to know the horse's test results!

THIS is why,NOW, my position on any further breeding of ANY stallion OR mare that has produced one of the known, 'conventional' types of dwarf, would be the same as others, notably like Outlawridge, and Sue C., have expressed. I would not ever breed either animal again, and would do my best to ensure that NO ONE ever bred either again. This eliminates the 'crapshoot' that now is the case-not only of producing more dwarves, but of producing more UNKNOWN carriers, which take the problem on, and on-and no rationalizations will change that. I do not believe that 'every miniature horse carries the gene for dwarfism'-plain logic and my basic knowledge of Mendelian genetics make me believe that--nor do I think that the 'gene pool' would be in serious trouble, even now, before research has provided the information we so badly need, if known producers of dwarves were to all be dropped from breeding. There would certainly be those who would be 'hit' in the pocketbook, though--and many won't tolerate that....I didn't want to, either, around 9 years ago when I 'lost' the $5000 I'd paid for a breeding stallion, and gave away, to a youth-at-risk charity,both he and two pretty nice mares I'd raised(one was a perfectly nice, normal-looking daughter of the stallion, and I didn't feel right about selling her-the other was the dam of the dwarf-also quite decent and normal-looking)--but, I did what I felt I must do. (I now realize it would have been better had I gelded the stallion, but at least, the charity wasn't into breeding.)I did tell the receipients about the dwarf.

I admire Liz M. for her committed study of the aspects of dwarfism! Although I do agree that often, there are certain characteristics that seem to "point to" the possibility that a given horse might well produce a dwarf, I do think that sometimes, seriously affected dwarves do come from very normal-appearing, and in some cases, quality-appearing, parents. Recently, I have seen various photos, in various places, of Miniatures that I call"hot dogs with legs". These kinds of horses are some I would never breed. Just my honest opinion, and assessment. I DO hope that research will move forward on this subject; however, since the donation check I mailed to the university program that was supposed to be moving on this has never been cashed, after months, I have to wonder....

Margo

 

[horsehug]

Margo,

I am surprised they never cashed your check. I sent a check (not large, but what I could afford at the time) way back when it was posted who to send it to. In my case I did to Texas A&M and received a nice note back thanking me for it from the University months ago.

I also recently heard from John Eberth in response to a question of mine...... that he is still very much involved in his research and will have a lot of new information to present at the next convention.

I will leave it up to him if he wants to comment on any of it at this point. I am sure he is very busy with the World show coming up etc. But I know he is very dedicated and determined to find dwarf markers for genes and eventually to develop a test. I don't think some people realize just how huge of a task this is and how many years it might take, but he is for sure working on it.

I plan to continue to contribute.

Susan O.

 

[justagirl]

Boy , what a can of worms I opened.

Thank you everyone who replied.....this thread has really been a learning experience for me and I guess the biggest problem I see is identifying whether or not a horse is a "dwarf" or not. Barn blindness obviously plays a humongous role .... and so does everyone's idea of dwarf characteristics. Obviously we have some that have the minimal characteristics and will continue to be bred, and then there are the very severely plagued by crippling characteristics, that hopefully will never contribute to the gene pool.

So ultimately it is the choice of the breeder how they choose to 'handle' the situation and they at that point have a choice to make. They can either better the breed by carefully scrutininzing their breeding herd, or they can continue to breed the same horses and run the risk of producing another dwarf.

I'm still new enough to minis to recall my thoughts when looking into my first purchase. I'd done some reading and seen pictures of obvious dwarfs (bent legs, short necks etc) but my perception has changed dramatically in the last 13 months, and it is my opinion that there should be more emphasis on the "minimal" dwarfs, to educate and hopefully make owners (to be) aware of the problems that may lurk int heir future breeding program. But there again is that fine line and difference of opinion on what a dwarf is.......

And it seems things won't change until they can identitfy the dwarf gene and we can screen all breeding horses before they produce their next generation.

So it would appear that somewhere down the line, a market for dwarfs was created, either unknowingly or unwillingly , but I don't see them disappearing any time soon.

 

[irishmini]

I JUST WANT TO SAY A COUPLE OF THINGS ON THIS SUBJECT..........i think the comparison between downsyndrom and dwarfism is right but only in the sense that.. if you found out you were carrying a downs child and aborted it....well then you would put down a dwarf..!!.if you found you were carrying a downs child and carried it through ,gave birth to it and loved it, no matter what... you would do the same with a dwarf,,,...

god!! if one f my mares gave birth to a less than perfect foal.....i would look after it.... and love it..and do the best for it, i wouldnt sell it... maybe i would give it to a home, but only on loan... after all it was up to me it came into this world.....

but.. like aborting a disabled baby....... its oppinion that matters ....

i have to just say.. of course it it was having no quality of life i would do whatever was best for the horse...that goes without saying,,

 

[Little Bit]

My daughter-in-law who is getting her masters in cancer biology was able to explain the percentages of dwarfism to me in which I finally could understand, perhaps this will help others, as well.

She tells me that the dwarf gene is a recessive gene and that it takes 2 parents having the recessive gene to produce a dwarf foal(or a human). So once a mare & a stallion have produced a dwarf foal you KNOW that they both have to be carriers of the recessive gene. Breeding these two horses together again will give you a 75% chance of them either producing a dwarf foal or producing a normal foal that is carring the recessive gene. NOT GOOD! There is a 25% chance that these two horses will have a dwarf foal, a 50% chance that they will produce a normal foal that is a carrier of the dwarf gene and only a 25% chance that they will produce a foal without the recessive gene..... NOT GOOD ODDS EITHER! So anyone who breeds known dwarf producing horses only have a 25% chance of producing a foal that is not a dwarf or a foal who is not a carrier of the dwarf gene... DEFINETLY NOT GOOD ODDS, if ya ask me!!!! :no:

The percentage of a known dwarf carrying horse if bred again to a horse that has not yet proven itself to be a carrier of the dwarf gene:

Best case scenario (if the unknown horse is not a carrier): 50% chance of

producing a carrier, 50% chance of producing a normal horse (not a carrier).

If the unknown horse is a carrier as well: 25% chance of producing a dwarf,

50% chance of producing a carrier, and 25% chance of producing a completely

normal horse (not a dwarf and not carriying the dwarf gene)

Dwarfism in the Miniature Horse IS a reality, it's nothing to be ashamed of, but nothing we want to breed for either! I am STRONGLY againt the buying or selling of dwarf minis, other than in a rescue situation. Paying large sums of money for a dwarf will only create a demand for them, and the unscrupulous breeders will not care whether they produce dwarves or not, especially if they can get more money for them than they can a "normal" foal!

One person mentioned that she was a first time Dwarf Momma and had done a LOT of research and is finding out as much as possible on the special needs and care of the dwarf minis and I have to commend her. :aktion033: Yes, the ideal person to adopt a dwarf mini would be someone with a lot of horse experience, and dwarf mini experience, BUT to tell you the truth there are NOT all that many people out there with those qualifications, and there are MANY more dwarf minis in this world needing a good loving, forever home, than there are people with experience with dwarf minis! They are NOT for everyone, that is for sure, as they are a HUGE commitment not only psycially and emotionally, but many times economically, as well. But the rewards can not be measured... I love my special babies...all 6 of them, I wouldn't trade them for anything! And still miss my beloved Little Bit.

 

[Little Bit]

Just going back through some of the MANY posts on this thread this morning, after posting last night, and thought I would comment on this quote:

We do not KNOW that Dwarfism needs two parents- has anyone actually bred a Dwarf, full on, stallion to a clear mare and what was the result??Tiny Tim we know was a dwarf- how many of his foals were dwarfs??

We are assuming that it takes two sides of the gene to produce a dwarf, which is why people tend to try again with the mare with a different stallion, rather than discard the mare outright.

YES we DO KNOW that it DOES take TWO parents carrying the dwarf gene to be able to produce a dwarf foal, human, dog, cow or whatever.

That is why a MARE or a STALLION who have proven themselves to be a "known dwarf gene carrier", by producing a dwarf foal, should NOT be bred again, at least until which time a test for the dwarf gene is found. Then yes, these "know dwarf gene carrying horses" could be used again if they were bred to horses that test negative for the dwarf gene. However, there would still be a 50% chance that the foal would be a carrier. NOT GOOD either.

As I have said MANY times before, education is SO VERY important, and people with the education of dwarfism in the Miniature Horse NEED to be responsible Miniature Horse breeders and pull ALL of their "know dwarf carrying horses" from their breeding programs. This does NOT mean that they can turn around and sell these horses to other people to be used for breeding either! :no:

Yes, these "known drwarf gene carrying horses" may go on to produce many normal looking foals, but these foals have a 50% chance of of being carriers, so in my opinion you would NOT be a responsible breeder if you continue to breed your horses that have proven to you that they ARE carrying the dwarf gene.

I also believe that if you can see ANY dwarf characteristics in a horse, even just ONE dwarf characteristic, the chances of it carrying the dwarf gene are VERY GOOD, and those horses should NOT be bred either. Chances are also very good that these horses are of "pet quality" anyway, and it is also my opinion that pet quality horses should not be bred either... There are SO many Miniature Horses that are being neglected, sold at flea markets, feed stores and in the classified adds now days, and many are ending up at auctions and even slaughter houses or in homes that the people have NO education about horses, they don't know how to care for them properly, who start "breeding" these pet quality horses and are producing MORE pet quality horses, the cycle just continues.

Most of these people have NO idea that dwarfism in the Miniature Horse even exists, little lone knowing what to look for in a horses that they want to breed! If it's cute and little, that's all they think matters.

JMO

OK, I'm stepping down off of my soapbox now.

I apologize if I have offened anyone with my opinions.

Janell

 

[nootka]

I also believe that if you can see ANY dwarf characteristics in a horse, even just ONE dwarf characteristic, the chances of it carrying the dwarf gene are VERY GOOD, and those horses should NOT be bred either. Chances are also very good that these horses are of "pet quality" anyway, and it is also my opinion that pet quality horses should not be bred either... There are SO many Miniature Horses that are being neglected, sold at flea markets, feed stores and in the classified adds now days, and many are ending up at auctions and even slaughter houses or in homes that the people have NO education about horses, they don't know how to care for them properly, who start "breeding" these pet quality horses and are producing MORE pet quality horses, the cycle just continues. Most of these people have NO idea that dwarfism in the Miniature Horse even exists, little lone knowing what to look for in a horses that they want to breed! If it's cute and little, that's all they think matters.

Wow, Janell, this is pretty much very similar to how I feel. There were many people that were discouraged over my choice to sell my one filly as a "pet only" as they felt she was very desirable being A: under 30" tall, B: palomino with appaloosa breeding, and C: cute! Told 'em that was not enough to risk birth of a dwarf (she had a fairly severe underbite, dome head and large bones for her height, all three things are risk factors to ME), also she was not nearly elegant looking enough and though she was correct, she had things about her that made her just "average" quality anyway.

I have very often, when given the chance, been able to see the dwarf characteristics in a pair or at least one of them when pictures were shown honestly of sire and dam that resulted in a dwarf. Now to me, I myself would NOT breed a known dwarf carrier (i.e. one that has sired/foaled one), but if the person wanted to, at least take the one out of the equation that is obviously carrying traits.

Liz M.

 

[WSR's_Judy]

[SIZE=12pt]I want to tell a story that will touch your heart. Its kind of a long story.[/SIZE]

My sister is new to minis so last year she purchased a mare already bred and the stallion the mare was bred too. She really did not want a foal but the price was right. She was just wanting the minis for her grandkids to use in 4-H.

Well this mare foaled and she called me and wanted to come and look at it that something was not right. I went over and the mare was fine with you touching and petting the foal, (and the foal was definitely a dwarf its legs was bad, its mouth was bad.) but when we tried to get the foal to nurse the mother would push us away and would not let the foal nurse.

We milked the mare and got the foal to nurse, but each time we tried to get the foal to nurse the mare would not let us she would push it away. At first I thought he mare was rejecting the foal but this mare stood over this foal, did not leave its side. She would not leave this foal not even to eat. When my husband got home I took him to see it, and showed him what the mare was doing. He told me I think she has does not want us to save this foal, she has made her decide on the life of this foal.

We did keep giving it milk thru out the night, but the next morning the foal died. The still stood over the foal for about an hour then she left and went to eating. We buried the foal.

My husband always says animals know better for their young than we do.

I wanted to share this story because sometimes, we do have to make hard decisions.

Since my sister did not know much about minis and their pedigrees. I went to talk with the owners/breeders that she purchased the mare and stallion from.

Come to find out this stallion was full blooded brother to this mare. So the dwarf this mare had was not her fault and I hate to say it but it falls on the fault of that specific breeder.

Thank God we all do not breed this way.

I know sometimes it happens, and we do not have control over that but hopefully we learn from it.

She has since had the stallion gelded and took the mare to have bred to another stallion I found for her. We both felt this mare deserved to have one healthy, beautiful foal.

:

And now that my sister just found she is going to be a grandma again this little foal aready will have someone to love it.

Judy

 

[runamuk]

Just going back through some of the MANY posts on this thread this morning, after posting last night, and thought I would comment on this quote:

We do not KNOW that Dwarfism needs two parents- has anyone actually bred a Dwarf, full on, stallion to a clear mare and what was the result??Tiny Tim we know was a dwarf- how many of his foals were dwarfs??

We are assuming that it takes two sides of the gene to produce a dwarf, which is why people tend to try again with the mare with a different stallion, rather than discard the mare outright.

YES we DO KNOW that it DOES take TWO parents carrying the dwarf gene to be able to produce a dwarf foal, human, dog, cow or whatever.

I wanted to address this statement. Actually in humans there are 200 identified forms of dwarfism and a not all of them require 2 genes to occur.

I suggest that anyone who wants to truly educate themselves study the research on human dwarfism that will open your eyes to the task of "finding" the gene or genes responsible for dwarfism in miniature horses. There are researchers right now who are trying to find answers but it akes time money genetic samples more money and does not happen overnight.

I believe in the end it will not be as simple as getting rid of all known carriers.................actually I am convinced if that were done the miniature horse as we now know it would not exist. I am not looking for arguments as we can argue amongst ourselves ad nauseum (and have many times

: ) and still end up right where we started nowhere with just as many unanswered questions as before.

I would love to see John post more often on this topic since he is doing the majority of the research. I also often wonder if they ever did find any of Ann Bowlings research she had done..........very sad that information passed along with her.

There have recently been a bunch of wonderful shows on TV about dwarfism in humans and interviews with different families and people affected by various types of dwarfism..........very insightful.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

runamuck i agree in fact the university that was doing some research in CO i think it was that I sent samples and info to did feel that it was possible in some forms of dwarfism to have only ONE parent be the carrier that was part of what they were tring to identify.