All this talk about dwarfs

[justagirl]

I'm probably going to be sorry I'm 'saying ' this but so far that has never stopped me before.

With so much talk on the forum lately about dwarfs, I 've really been thinking about those who breed miniatures, and what responsibilty we should take if we ever have a dwarf born on our farms.

It's JMO that these foals shouldn't be sold, but instead they should placed for adoption with people that know how to care for them OR should such a place not be available, the breeder should keep them (not for breeding purposes) and provide for them (provided they are equipt to do so). I believe by selling these dwarfs, we may unwillingly be creating a 'market' for them, and the next thing we know some ignorant "breeder" (no one here of course

: ) will be breeding his dwarf stallion to everything in the pasture because he can sell them for a few hundred bucks. Then we have the inexperienced horse owner to be, that sees one of these little darlings in the pasture and regresses back to childhood when mommy and daddy wouldn't let them have a pony, and decides to take one home, not knowing the least bit how to care for it. After 6 months or so the fun wears off the dwarf is forgotten about and neglected.

I apologize if I am off track here.....but neglectful horse owners are at the top of my list here lately and I am starting to see how these situations are created.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Well said, and I agree with you 100%.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Warpony]

I agree.... however, I think they need to screen the homes REALLY carefully. Placing animals for "free" can be dangerous. It sounds trite but honestly I want to know people are willing to spend money on an animal before I place it in their home.

 

[nootka]

Hmmm...yes, but dwarf characteristics are somewhat subjective, and though I know there are "responsible" breeders that have horses in their herds that carry these traits, they are still producing more of them, to my own eyes, this is knowingly creating more and burying their head in the sand because it goes against another goal of their program which may be color, size, bloodline, etc. So while I agree they are and should be placed for adoption, there are those that are in denial about what they have and there are more than plenty people to back them up and say "no it isn't because I don't think so."

The sad fact is until we have definitely testing, it's going to be hard to say on some of them what is and what is'nt. there will be those that say every mini has the gene, and therefore it's ok to breed the ones that look "sorta kinda" like one.

The "dwarf" that was being shown on here recently was being sold by his owners as a perfect example and the smallest, etc. so they are clearly in denial. They were not asking to find a good home but rather to make a considerable sum of money on him. And then there is a great market for super tiny, and even the super cute characteristics. Yes, they are "cute" in an ugly sort of way (at least to me) as in they are not desirable but it does not make them less lovable. Guess I don't know, something like the troll dolls everyone loves something so ugly it's cute? That market has its appeal and there's always someone to take advantage.

There is a line somewhere, and it's a movable line, a shadowy and blurry line. One could argue that the miniature horse itself as a breed is a "freak" and to breed and sell them is wrong. Then one could point fingers at various other animals and how we as humans have taken our control over them to create genetic mutations be it for good or for bad, it is ultimately for our own pleasure and gain.

I just don't see how intentionally creating something with obvious genetic defects that is bound to have a lower quality of life, is right or pleasurable. As cute as dwarf minis are, I really still get a bad feeling from looking at them, and a bit of sadness. This is part of why I would never be able to have one. If I bred it, I would do my best to do right by it, but I could not keep it and feel good about it. Would I hide it? No. I just would not do anything other than the right thing (euthanasia if it was bad, and adoption if it were manageable).

It's hard sometimes to bite my tongue when I see so many out there breeding the "type" that tends to throw these dwarfs, but I do, because it's a free country, but it is a problem that tends to perpetuating through ignorance (of an uninformed newbie and breeders in denial, IMO).

Dwarfs don't HAVE to be a fact of life. No I have not had one born here, but I have had some that had what I consider to be characteristics and so they were culled to pet homes. I know now what my mistakes were in my breeding choices (one mare was bred when I got her, she was given to me).

I just wish others could see some of the same things. Cute does not equal dwarf nor does dwarf equal cute. Yes they are cute, but that in itself is not a reason to breed more or sell them for that purpose. I don't know, I'm rambling, but this is a subject I am passionate about and have done a good deal of subjective research on.

The bottom line is that I feel dwarfism is far more preventable than is commonly thought, and when the parents of dwarfs are honestly presented, you can "see" where it came from in at least one parent. Now rare is it to find someone who is honest about showing both parents, but it is very educational and enlightening. I do know many longtime breeders that agree with me, too. Not going to say 100% preventable, but much more so than most would admit to, as they are just a "fact of life" for some schools of thought.

Liz M.

 

[kaykay]

i have a picture of a dwarf in a petting zoo that will make your toes curl and will make any breeder think twice about "selling" one or even giving one away. But Im afraid to post it as its just so bad and obviously i dont own the horse. We tried to get him into cmhr

 

[JWC sr.]

Good points from all of you, the really pitiful thing is that there is a real serious market with them going into Mexico here in Texas. I know of one exotic animal trader that actively solicits dwarfs from most of the farms in the Central/South Texas area.

The main problem I have with most of them I have seen him with is the deformities a lot of them show and it breaks my heart oit even see them try and walk. The little guys/girls deserve not to be subjected to a life of pain just because someone can make a dollar off of them as oddities IMHO.

I for one will either give the baby to a good home if it is not too bad or have it put down as versus subjecting it to this type treatment, if and/or when we produce our first one. So far we have not had to face it in our herd. But time usually has a way of catching up with everyone.

my two & 1/2 cents worth,

:saludando:

 

[Fullmoon]

I think I understand what your saying, BUT, I was one of those people that had no knowledge or experience with a dwarf when I was given one. She is very well taken care of and has thrived for seven years now. In fact we were given another dwarf to keep her company and the best we can guess is that she’s nine or ten. What your saying is that if a breeder has one they should keep it or only give it to an already experienced person? My gosh! You’d be subjecting most of the little dwarfs into a life of solitude or even death. It absolutely amazes me how many times people come on here and put others down when they themselves don’t have any “first hand†experience with something.

Dwarf miniature horses are here and are a fact of life. I’m not saying that these two would have had bad lives if it weren’t for me but stop and think about what your saying!! Yes I’m sure that there are pictures of dwarfs in petting zoo’s that would curl my toes but I’ve seen pictures of absolutely beautiful animals that have been subjected to cruelty and abuse.

Out of all the people that have stopped by my place wanting to see them there was only one that even asked if it was possible to breed one. I personally don’t know anyone that breed’s for dwarfs. Do you?

 

[Warpony]

There is a line somewhere, and it's a movable line, a shadowy and blurry line. One could argue that the miniature horse itself as a breed is a "freak" and to breed and sell them is wrong. Then one could point fingers at various other animals and how we as humans have taken our control over them to create genetic mutations be it for good or for bad, it is ultimately for our own pleasure and gain.

I just don't see how intentionally creating something with obvious genetic defects that is bound to have a lower quality of life, is right or pleasurable.

I clipped down the post to target just the part I wanted to respond to...

You actually said exactly where I draw the line... when the genetic changes we breed for lower their quality of life.... that is the line. I had to think about this myself before i got my dogs. I do not breed or raise ANYTHING, but my favorite breed of dog is basically bred intentionally for a genetic "defect". No matter how much I adore them if I thought their "defect" lowered their quality of life I would never have one because that would just be encouraging the breeding of more animals with a lower quality of life (both of mine are adopted anyway, so I wouldn't be directly supporting breeding anyway), and the same would apply to a dwarf.

If I were offered a free dwarf who was able to live comfortable and enjoy life without a lot of really extensive special needs i would take it in a heartbeat but I would never ever encourage breeding for them or selling them or intentionally breeding animals that show a tendency to produce them.

 

[nootka]

I personally don’t know anyone that breed’s for dwarfs. Do you?

I don't know anyone that intentionally breeds FOR dwarfs, but I do know those that breed without caring/looking at what they're doing.

I questioned one of these people, and she told me she had a great market for them, got good money (more than for the "plain ones") and so she didn't find it an issue. At this farm, out of over a hundred horses, at least a third had characteristics. Of the mares with foals at their sides probably 30 that I saw, there were at least 6 dwarfs, and some were mild, but there were some VERY badly afflicted foals. One of the mares that had a foal was terribly deformed, herself. She's not breeding FOR dwarfs, but obviously does not care that dwarfs have babies and gambles that the dwarfs themselves will have normal babies (or not). Her goal is color color color and it's sick but she stays in business and I've even seen her brag on the saleboard here how she's sold more than ever and "thank you" etc. so someone out there is very uninformed, sadly, and there are newbies all the time suckin' them up that don't know any better, petting zoos that want the tiniest, the cutest, the ones that don't move around a lot (yeah if it hurts to move, you will just lie there all day, there is a farm in this region that has one at a petting zoo and he just lies curled up like a foal and he's very bad, but also very small maybe 23" tall and mature).

So in this herd, where this woman was not hiding the parentage, I could see where these dwarfs came from, a blatant disregard for fairly obvious and not quite so obvious symptoms. It happens all the time and I myself have been guilty (ignoring warning signs), and I hope now I know better. Not to say I will never breed one, but I am very careful and hope I would be able to learn from it if I did, as I have in the past (bred a minimally symptom dwarf or possible dwarf carrier from like).

Liz M.

 

[backwoodsnanny]

I too dont agree with selling dwarves but if they are not so badly deformed that they can live many happy years with the right home I also dont think we can play God and destroy them. I know for a fact that this is what was done in the past and I think that was totally unfair. I dont have a dwarf here but I do have Helen who has a birth defect that all vets have told me is not genetic but rather developmental. I will not breed her mother again but I will use her father as my stallion again since there is no evidence to indicate either of them had any control over the defect that Helen was born with. For those who do not know Helen was born with no eyes. It is a defect that is seen so rarely that no vet I have talked with has ever seen one in humans its one in 500 million. As for dwarfs if I have one here it will be taken care of here for as long as it can have a good quality of life and when that isnt possible it would be humanely euthanized just as if I thought Helen were suffering she also would be euthanized. Her worst problem at the moment is how to keep her mother out of her grain. LOL

 

[HGFarm]

I must say that many if not most all the breeders here used to euthanize them at birth. Most 'back then'- and I am talking a short ten years ago, would never admit that their farm had ever produced one!! They were not talked about at all.

A friend of mine had a little dwarf that was the CUTEST thing ever, that matured at about 15" out of two 28" parents. She made the news here and I still have the video from the newsclip. She was not much bigger than a basketball!!

Unfortunately that little sweetie only lived just over a year, when she suddenly took a turn for the worse, and they lost her. The dam never resettled again (tried a different stallion) which was just as well, since upon further research done by the owner, decided that perhaps the mare was showing a couple of characteristics (though at first glance was hard to tell) and decided to 'lease' her to a pet home, who just loves her.

Good thing, that times have changed! I am not saying that breeders out there still dont euthanize them at birth to 'get rid of the evidence', but we all know it happens.

It is the breeders like what Liz mentioned that just dont care what they are breeding, and 'hope' for the best - or not!!!

:

If the dwarf is badly deformed, and not going to have any quality of life at all, and is going to be sick or have constant vet bills, it is better, in my opinion, to have it humanely put down. Just as I would a cat or dog or anything else that is just not going to thrive and be miserable.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I apologize if I am off track here.....but neglectful horse owners are at the top of my list here lately and I am starting to see how these situations are created.

I agree with you on that, but not just in the instant of producing a dwarf. I serioulsy believe ALL breeders should take responsibility for what they produce! Dog breeders routinely take back dogs and rehome them, but so many horse breeders just turn over a horse as quickly as can be without any after the sale care or concern. To many of us this is a business so income is a concern, but we aren't selling cars or doors or toys - some consideration for their welfare must occur.

Talking about that here on the Forum is a bit like 'preaching to the choir' as I've seen that the majority of the Forum members try to be conscentious and ethical in their dealings.

I know I would be physically sick if one of the horses that I had helped bring into this world ended up in a rescue situation from neglect or abuse. I would also hope someone notified me if this did happen, as I would take whatever steps to get the horse back to me. I have always and will continue to take back or buy back horses of our breeding. It's just something I feel is right to do.

As for dwarves, our policy would be to place them in an appropriate home or they'll be lifers here, assuming they're having good quality of life. A dwarf or any animal that's life has deteriorated to laying in a pile is not having quality of life. I would definitely have any horse checked by the vet and an assessment made. If the outcome was poor I wouldn't hesistate to put an animal down, it is the humane thing to do.

 

[Miniv]

I will Ditto both Laurie of Heather Glenn and Michelle of Wesco Farms..........

We produced one dwarf out of a cross that originated from a well known farm. He was the type of dwarf that people call "wiener dog" style (can't remember the medical term) but he was and is adorable......I checked up on him a year ago and he was still doing great -- at 8 years old!

We chose to give him to a lady who had purchased several horses from us and she had fallen in love with him. It turned out to be a great decision.

We no longer own that cross that produced our little guy, but if we should ever have another dwarf, we would do what both Laurie and Michelle posted. Assess the horse's quality of life first. Then, if the vet deemed it basically healthy we would either keep it or carefully place it in a pet home with someone we know and can follow up on.

I guess it's all part of trying to be responsible breeders.

MA

 

[littlearab]

I had a dwarf born here last year. We named him Hobbit and yes he was areal sweet little guy.

I purchused the mare bred. I was told the foal was from a stallion I purchused along with the mare.. But now have proof it was not sired by my stallion...

After really looking at the mare I decided she also was a dwarf.She has a very poor bite ,short head, short neck ect. Things others have told me they do not consiter dwarf if one or two are alone, but I do if they are all together.

I sold the mare to a pet home, with it in writing that she would not be bred. I know it maybe all in vane becuase once she off my farm I really have no say as to weather or not she is bred, or sold later to someone who will bred her.

: But having stallions here I did not want ot take the chance of her being bred here.

I did have Hobbit the dwarf colt put down. He was suffering too much would never lead a normal happy life. IMHO

My feeling were at the time and still are that a dwarf is born into a life of pain and suffering. I know some will say they or know so and so has one healthy ,happy ect. But unless I myself am willing to care for the dwarf for it's life time I can not say what will happen to it. I'm not willing to take funds aways from caring for my other horses to take care of one who is just being kept alive to suffer.

They do not need to suffer for however long thier life is just so others can say I'm doing the right thing.Putting them down is the right thing to do. Unless they are very very minamal dwarfs...

If they not do live to be of breeding age they can not reproduce..

Hard facts.. but in any other animal ,cattle, sheep ect an animal born with such defects they would be put down on the spot, not ?s. That is why you very rarely see a dwarf cow or sheep whatever.

I understand that in the old days dwarfs were used to size down. But now we know better. I hope. And we as breeders need to do what at the time maybe the HARD thing and let them go at birth... not keep them alive and then try to find homes for them.

If miniature breeders put them down like other breds we would not have this issue. or at least not to this degree now. And I believe in time a dwarf miniature would also be rare or at least not common place.

IMHO

 

[yankee_minis]

I've tried writing a response here several times and have erased it and started again. It's very difficult to write how I feel about this.

First I believe they should not be sold.

I guess each individual breeder has to make their own decisions when a dwarf is born.

It's not black or white.

Who is to say that it is *easier* to put down a dwarf or to keep it alive?

That's a decision I had to make recently and I hope I made the right one. I agonized over it. I've worried about her every day and although she is in a new home, I will still worry about her. (Who could ask for a better home than one where Bill of WW Minis will be helping to take care of her feet? She's a Brat Pack neighbor!!)

Anyway, there is no one answer to the question of what to do when a dwarf is born.

Let's just hope that they're born into homes of responsible people who give a great deal of thought into the fate of the little one.

 

[outlawridge]

It's not black or white.

Who is to say that it is *easier* to put down a dwarf or to keep it alive?

Very well said.

I also have been attempting to post a reply to this thread but have been a bit hesitant as I am sure my views will offend several, however I feel I cannot let my thoughts go unsaid. Two dwarfs share their lives with us and do have quality lives and their every need attended to. This is a personal decision that some people cannot make, and I understand that. And yes, there are dwarfs born that are so severe and in such pain that they should be humanely put down.

But my concern, (and please do not flame me here or in emails....just please simply consider what I am posting) is the lack of discussion and group consideration of what breeders are doing when they re-breed a known dwarf producer. Do they not consider the fact that they are breeding FOR this genetic defect simply by the DNA the offspring now carries???? This is similar to the merle coat in collies. Years ago everybody wanted merle, merle, merle but what breeders were ignoring is that they were also breeding the tendency for blindness and other eye problems INTO the offspring.

How can breeders call themselves responsible when they continue to re-breed known dwarf producers?? Even if the percentage bred into the foals is only 25% or less, that breeder is still breeding the dwarf genetic potential INTO the foals!

An example is myself. Several years ago I purchased a bred mare, with NO dwarf characteristics whatsoever. The foal was a dwarf. The mare is 33.5 inches tall, long neck, natural graceful head, grand champion halter mare/mini of everything she was ever shown in, but now also a dwarf producer. Genetic scientists to date, tell us that it takes both parents to produce a dwarf in all species. But, at the time our sweet Joey was born, I came to this board with many questions about dwarfism and where it could have come from in this mare. At the risk of being really flamed, I will say that I was somewhat misinformed. I was never told that she should not be bred, that it required both parents, and I was assured it was a fluke and something that all breeders will encounter at some time. I was also assured that it was just fine to breed her again. Please do not misunderstand me. I am not blaming the people of this board, as ultimately, gaining knowledge about dwarfism and the genetics known was my full responsibility, and I should have done much more than just come here. I was new at minis, brand new at breeding as this was my first foal, and I trusted too much. Consequently, I bred her to my stallion and thankfully the foal was not a dwarf. However, I am gelding this colt as I realized that I bred into this baby a 25% chance that he carries the dwarf gene, and this is simply IRRESPONSIBLE. This mare will never be sold or re-bred now that I have a much better understanding. This mare had several previous foals and none were dwarfs, not even minimal. So I am aware that a horse can produce a dwarf without any history or characteristics themselves from first hand knowledge. My beef is when a known producer is re-bred.

I apologize for this being so lengthly, but I really feel that if we, as breeders, truly are concerned about helping to erradicate dwarfism in our beloved breed, then we better take some serious hard looks at ALL the genetic possibilities we are breeding into our foals. And if we re-breed known dwarf producers then it seems that we are willing to allow the possibilities of more dwarfs coming into this world to suffer because we KNOW the genetic potential to produce more is in the foals.

 

[anita]

You can mate the same mare and stallion 20 times and 19 times its good and bingo 1 dwarf. This can happen to every breeder, big or small, young or old. Breeding is ever a risk !

Like said above you need two for tango, mare and stallion even Multi Champion can produce a dwarf.

I got this year a dwarf from a 33 mare, size doesn't matter. She is such a cute little girl and full of life. This baby has the ability to make people laugh and happy. And all of them I love her so much and so do my horses.

She stays here with the best care because I am responsible for her life.

Gloria-Victoria is the eye catcher here every farm needs an eye catcher.

My 2 cents

Anita

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Off Topic, so I apologise!!

Merle coat in collies has nothing to do with eye defects.

Merle to Merle produces blind puppies, that is all, so you cannot associate Dwarfism and Merle coat pattern, sorry, not the same thing as Merle can be inherited quite adequately from one parent alone.

OK, back on topic and playing Devil's Advocate, now:-

We do not KNOW that Dwarfism needs two parents- has anyone actually bred a Dwarf, full on, stallion to a clear mare and what was the result??

Tiny Tim we know was a dwarf- how many of his foals were dwarfs??

We are assuming that it takes two sides of the gene to produce a dwarf, which is why people tend to try again with the mare with a different stallion, rather than discard the mare outright.

As I said in a different thread when we found Von Willebrands was rife in Dobes we did not discard all carriers as this is a defect that is not straightforward- yo can have Clear, Affected and Carrier.

Clear X Carrier will only produce Clear or Carrier, never Affected.

Suppose Dwarfism turns out to be like this??

What we desperately need at this stage in the game with no test available and, because of head in the sand syndrome not likely to come along soon due to lack of research funds, is HONESTY!!!

Stop putting them down unless they need it and OWN UP to it.

Yes, my mare had a Dwarf, ONCE.

Never had another and she's had ten foals.

Yes, my Stallion sired five dwarf foals out of eight mares bred- we gelded him, he is from such and such lines.

Yes, my Stallion had a dwarf foal, he bred fifteen mares that year and one was a dwarf.

We'll wait and see what happens this year- everyone knows.

When we start getting some idea of what is possible we can make informed decisions.

When we get people who just ignore the facts because their stallion/mare is Almighty Champion of the World, well, nothing will ever change that until there is a DNA test and the registries REQUIRE it!!!

 

[jdomep]

The man I got my mini donkeys from had an "accidental" breeding of a 18 yo dwarf mare

Stallion broke out etc..... He seemed to be a very responsible owner - he had this girl for nearly 20 years and it never happened before... but what I didn't like was he was selling her pretty little paint filly as a breedable horse. I didn't know much then but I remember asking him about that and he said it was just as likely for her to throw a dwarf as any other mini - I didn't think that sounded right but I hadn't found this place and just took it as correct...I am still unsure of that answer...

 

[Frankie]

My first experience with a dwarf was when I was looking to purchase my first miniature.

I went to visit a farm that had about 80 horses. We stepped inside the barn to talk and get out of the wind. When I saw 3 of the cutest little guys you have ever seen in your life walking and playing in the aisle way of the barn.

So I asked about them. They were all 3 young so had not yet developed a lot of the physical problems, visable anyway, as of yet. We talked about them. Was told how rare they were and how much MORE expensive they were. Now this was a farm with experience. I can not tell you how happy I am that I could not afford the "rare" miniature as I had zero experience with them. I just can't imagine the problems I would have come across.

Then 2 years ago we had our own. She was the most beautiful, precious thing you have ever seen in your life. When I saw her legs, I knew right away. Her cannon bone measured under 2 inches. We lost her on the evening of the 2nd day. Her lower jaw was so rotated forward, underbite, it brought her tongue out of position, too far forward and it did not work correctly, letting milk into her lungs.

If she had made it,,,,,,she would be here forever, as it was my choice to get a bred mare, not her fault and therefore my responsibility to make sure she is forever taken care of.

If it is my choice, then I must be responsible for that choice, no matter how long it takes/lasts.