ACL rupture - shorthorsemom (and anyone else with experience)

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I'd like to pick your brain if I can. I took my rotti to the vet today to find out what was up with her rear leg lameness. Turns out she has ruptured her anterior cruciate ligament. The vet is recommending surgery, possibly at a larger vet hospital some distance away, and a prolonged recovery that will require a minimum of 8 weeks of severely restricted activity. We see all manner of potential problems with this treatment , not the least being she is a young, very active and energetic dog who has no inclination to slow down even with only 3 good legs. Restricting her is not going to be easy. Rather than go into all that I'm thinking right now (since my mind is like a hamster on a wheel at the moment) would like to hear, if you have the time, if you know anything about this condition and what successes you've seen with recovery in large dogs.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Hi there.. I was just chatting with somebody yesterday with the same injury on their dog.. a young lab. The lady called me hoping I could tell her some other options, but honestly, there really isn't much option other than surgery in my opinion on this type of injury.

I admit to cringing when I hear of a dog having this injury. This is similar to a football player hearing that he has a torn ACL. This is a major injury and without treatment and surgery on a large dog will result in pain, atrophy and shockingly to scare you even more, on occasion the dog can also blow the ligament on the good leg while limping and trying to manage without putting strain on the injured leg. Not uncommon for a dog to blow one and then follow by blowing the other if the dog is one of those high strung dogs that can manage to bounce and run and use high energy even when injured.

That is one of the many reasons for restriction after surgery... one so it will give the injured leg time to heal, and the other is so the dog doesn't blow the other leg out while trying to be a goof and running around on one leg.

Unfortunately many vets do recommend a specialist for this surgery... Yes it is horribly expensive too. It is a specialized surgery and it really in my honest opinion your vet is telling you your best option and I have not found any option other than surgery for this injury and a big clinic that does the surgeries more frequently is definitely your best option. Your vet is steering you right on that one.

Agility folks warm up their dogs before competition and do stretches and exercises in preparation of strenuous exercise, but average dog owners (me included) open up the door, throw a frizbee, or allow our dog to rip around the yard in the snow or any turf without prior warm up. The lab I mentioned above tore his ligament playing in the deep snow.

I am so sorry you are going through this with your dog and I know it is very upsetting to you to see your dog in pain and also upsetting to you to be facing surgery and long recovery and keeping your dog quiet during recovery and not to mention the big bucks sticker price... Prepare yourself for sticker shock. I have heard this surgery costing 3k plus. On the up side. Seeing your dog happy again, out of pain and all healed will make all the hard work well worth the price and you and your dog will come out of the ordeal even closer than ever. If you need a cone on your dog to keep him from tearing sutures, I find the inflatable ones that look like an innertube on the dogs neck are the most comfortable.

You might consider a "freedom harness" if your dog is a puller, and you should be prepared for your dog to either be crated (really big crate if you have one) or restricted to one room or on a leash. You will take him out for potty breaks and then back into the house. Start doing the severe restriction activities now prior to the surgery.

Your vet can probably recommend some calming aids or you can shop holistic calming aids too.

Sorry this turned into a book.. I will probably start rambling some more with some additional ideas.. feel free to ask too... I am long winded but I am sincere in my dedication to dogs and their owners... and my heart goes out to you. hugs. I am here if you need support.. will help you as much as I can.

already adding stuff. This is most common in young large breed dogs with high energy. I just read that your dog is young. the lab owner I chatted with yesterday said her dog is a 2 year old bouncing bundle of energy.

 

[Mona]

I have had experience with this with 2 dogs...both Boxers. It is caused by high impact, quick starts, stops, bounces and turns etc. Your description of your Rotti does indeed sound like a prime candidate for it.

Both of our dogs had partial tears...not all the way through the tendon. We tried going the route of no surgery for the first guy. I do not recall how old he was, but not too old, as he died (of Cancer) before he turned 5 years of age. We tried several weeks of rest for him, as best as we could. It just meant for him, not letting him out with another dog at the same time...no running, jumping etc. We also had him on Rimadyl for the pain and inflammation. It would come and go with him, and when it came, it was very painful to him. The reason we decided against surgery for him, was because they were going to peel back the hide and take muscle from his hip/hind quarter to make the new piece. We felt that it would cause him so much pain, with no guarantee that it would even work, so we opted out.

Our other Boxer, a smaller female, also tore hers. With her, we chose to have the surgery done, because by that time, they were successfully using catgut to repair/create the torn part of the ligament. We had to keep her relatively quiet for 6 weeks. At the time, we had a Boston Terrier too, and she needed surgery for a luxating patella. We took advantage of the situation, having them both done at the same time, so they would both be in pain and would not want to play with each other, rather than having one healthy dog, bothering the surgical patient. We turned them both into patients. We also had it done in Winter (we live in a VERY cold area of Canada) so they did not spend much time outdoors, other than to potty. Hubby and I were both working at the time, being gone nearly 14 hours a day, so they were crated a LOT! Anyway, her surgery was successful, and she never had troubles with it again. She lived until she was 11. I think she was probably around 7 when she had the surgery done.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Massage and t touch exercises are good for calming post surgery.

Hi Mona... great information.. wow, I have a boston terrier that had issues with her patella last summer. My vet had me walk her in sand every day for exercise and that helped her knee a whole lot. Also put her on some yucca for about a month too. so far so good but on occasion I still see her slip and worry about surgery in her future. As she was ripping around the yard jumping snow piles this morning I was thinking... wow, I hope she doesn't hurt herself. .

I was reading some internet information about the different kinds of surgery options and it said that boxers and Labradors and rotties are among breeds this injury is more common in.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Thank you both for your input. I am at a loss right now, struggling to decide what is the best choice for her and for us. I am not rich, so I must look at costs too and weigh that against possible/probable outcomes. I can't see her suffering but she is such a healthy, happy and just plain good dog that I want to do all I can for her. Our house is not good for rehab in this case since we have a basement entry and there are stairs that must be used to get to the part of the house that we live in. The basement is unfinished, cement floored and most of all isolated from her family so I can not see leaving her there. She is a dog that would be so very unhappy and stressed to be away from her 'pack' all the time that it just seems like mental cruelty to isolate her. Tomorrow or Tuesday the vet's office will call us with pricing and info on the surgery choices available and we will make a decision then I guess.

 

[shorthorsemom]

I have no idea what I would do in your situation and understand your pain at the decisions you will be going through. I truly hope that the vet can find you some options and that the prices in your area are better than around here.. If your basement is your only option for rehab I do believe that you can find a way to make that work. A cheap carpet left over, garage sale sofa or chair and some extra lighting might make it more comfortable for her. A radio or old TV even... some decent chewing bones or elk antlers and the low stimulation of a few weeks isolation time might help her heal faster too, so don't rule out the basement just because she will be lonely. She can tolerate some loneliness for healing time and it could possibly work. Much better than trying to get a big dog up and down the stairs.

I had a friend that once had to do a 6 month quarantine on her dog to take him to the UK to live when she relocated. Not ideal, isolated, but she did visit him at the quarantine center every day for an hour. Nobody liked it and it was harder on my friend than the dog, but the dog survived ok on the limited visits and lonely time. think of it like a hospital stay for a human. Not ideal and often rather awful but necessary for healing.

Please post back when you can. We are all here for you and imagine at any time we could be in your shoes, so thank you for sharing.

best wishes.

 

[Mona]

Best wishes with whatever you decide on. Regardless though, surgery or not, those stairs will cause her much pain with a torn ACL. I would think her only hope of becoming pain free, would be to have the surgery done, and limit her (rough it out) for the weeks that she needs to be rested. It would be worth it in the long run I think. But, your vet will discuss the prognosis of the surgeries.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Reignmaker...how are you and your dog doing?

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I'm sorry I haven't posted an update. I am so torn that I hardly know what to say. Sasha is still as cheerful as ever, eating well and loving the extra attention we can't help but give her. I have been giving her the pain/anti inflammatory meds as directed and while I'm happy to say the don't seem to be bothering her stomach and she is clearly feeling less pain now I am not happy that they mask a pain that encouraged her to rest her leg. It has become much more challenging to keep her quiet and she will often put weight on her leg when walking. I spoke to the vets office on Monday, they tell me they think I should go to the referal hospital (a full days drive away) for the more complicated surgery but the cost of that is very prohibitive. If I stay here they will do a more simplified surgery but it is still horribly expensive and when I asked they say their success rate is only 60 -75% and that because of her nature and her build she is very much at risk of tearing the other side. It is looking like a no win situation, we can't really afford the cost of surgery, even if we find the money we do not believe we can rehab her effectively in our present location so it would likely be putting her thro even more discomfort with out any real chance of success. We still have to speak to our vet more but at this point we are leaning towards trying to manage her pain and keep her comfortable and when it becomes clear she is no longer enjoying life we would let her go. I have always said for animals quality of life is more important that quantity but honestly my heart wants to keep her with me no matter the cost. What I want is not always what I get tho... Like I said very torn. We won't see her suffering but aren't ready to let her go and can't see the options offered working well in our situation.

 

[Mona]

Best wishes for whatever decision you make.

 

[jacks'thunder]

Just letting you know you in my thoughts and prayers. It's tough to make these choices.

 

[shorthorsemom]

best wishes. You are a great dog mom and whatever you decide I know will be the best for all. It is obvious to me that you have put great thought into this. Don't beat yourself up over not going for the million dollar surgery. At this time in my life it probably would be impossible for me too. I see nothing wrong with making her as comfortable as you can and enjoying her while she is here. Hugs to you, I know this is very difficult for you.

Your situation is not much different than somebody that has a dog with cancer and decides to manage pain and let go when its time rather than opt for the big bucks chemo treatment. Somehow it is easier for some to understand with a cancer diagnosis and not with a major injury diagnosis, but I do understand. I have also seen dogs beat the odds too. time will tell.

We do what we can, we love them much, and they share themselves to make our life a bit brighter while they are here. she is lucky to have you.

take care and thank you for posting back. Let us know how she is doing and how you are doing too from time to time.

Hugs

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Thank you all for the supportive words. I have never before been in a position where my dog is healthy but injured and I can't help with the injury. As hard as it is on me I know it is equally hard on my husband who refuses to talk about her future at all. I know it is because it hurts him to know he can't save her. I keep reminding myself that when we lost our much loved bullmastiff we both wished for time to say good bye. That was sudden and unexpected so we need to be mindful of the blessing we have in time to adjust to what is most likely inevitable and show her we love her.

 

[shorthorsemom]

I had a german shepherd that lost the use of his hind legs due to DM. We knew we didn't have much time left, but we did have time to transition and say our goodbyes. I bought him a wheel chair from eddies wheels and it was totally worth the happiness of watching him run again even for a short period of time.

Its been 10 years and my husband is still not over the loss of Jet. Hits our men hard too. Just hate feeling so helpless and hard to watch your special dogs struggle and you wish you could do more.

I don't know if it would help your dog at all, but I one had one of my dogs get crashed into by one of the big dogs while running. He was in such pain and lost complete control of his hind end and his tail was limp and he would scream in pain. I was giving him rimidyl pain meds and nothing was helping. almost put him to sleep but a friend suggested I get him some traumeel tablets and give it to him. I drove to her house to pick up some until my order came in. With in 48 hours my guy was so improved, by a week later he was totally better. I am so glad I tried it, last ditch effort and it paid off. That's what I mean when I say, there are things you can try when you are out of options and on occasion you an beat the odds. My boy has been pain free for years now and a few minutes ago he was jumping back and forth over one of the other dogs in the kitchen.

My collie has a brain tumor and I almost quit when her quality of life was getting poor and the vet said we were out of options... and I tried giving her some yucca capsules. That was over a year ago and she is still going strong. When I tried taking her off the yucca she got a head tilt, got dizzy, had "episodes" and lost control of pee and poop.. On the yucca, she trots around like nothing is wrong. go figure. In her case the traditional medications, seizure medication... pain medication.. etc.. did not improve my girl at all.

I guess my message is that... don't be afraid to try something holistic and non traditional on treatment if other more traditional forms of treatment are not working. I thought the yucca and traumeel sounded a bit weird to try at first but since I was at the end of my rope I tried them. It worked so much better than I had ever hoped for.

take care. sorry writing fast here... hope this comes out ok.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

It came out perfectly. I understand what you are saying and will be checking into a few options to see if there is something to at least make her comfortable for what time we have left.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Look up on internet traumeel and acl injury. There is some interesting information and non surgical treatment info on Internet for acl injured dogs. Traumeel is mentioned.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Just a short update on Sasha. We have not started any new treatments since she only recently was on the meds the vet gave us (anti inflammatory and pain killer) which I was not sure about to start with (pain killers mask the pain and then she is more likely to use the leg IMO) and I don't like to mix even herbals with other drugs if I can't be sure of the response. She is actually doing quit well and we are left wondering if it is really a complete rupture. She has days when she uses it more and days when she uses it less. Doesn't seem to have lost any of her zest and we struggle to keep her from overdoing. I've had 2 people question why she is moving so normally if she has a rupture, they didn't notice anything until I pointed it out. I am actually feeling quite a bit more confidant now than when she was first diagnosed. I think as long as we can keep her activity level down she may just recover without surgery and have heard from several people who had the same problem and their dogs did well without. There is an issue with arthritis after healing but that seems to be a possibility even if we went ahead with surgery. We are at this point playing it by ear (or eye as it were) and will be starting her on something to support her bone health and try to keep inflammation under control this week after seeing what is suggested by the healthfood store (they have someone quite knowledgeable I'm told) . Thank you all for your support, it means a lot to be told we aren't being abusive because we can not afford the surgery.

 

[Mona]

I am not sure what you/you vet considers a "rupture". Both of our experiences were tears. No, not right through...that probably doesn't happen a lot. I think most are partial tears, where the tear does not go right through the entire ligament. I have partial tears to my shoulder muscles, and it is no fun, but yes, it does feel better, then get worse, depending on the use and/or overuse of it. I am sure that is why your dog has good days and bad. And yes, some can do OK without the surgery, but when she does have the flare-ups, it is VERY IMPORTANT to get her on some pain and anti-inflammatory meds. It is not wise to look at it in the manner that you are, that if she is masking the pain she will damage it ore. Please, think of yourself being in a similar situation and what it would be like. I know first hand, I live with it on a daily basis and have for years. I avoid taking drugs on a daily basis as much as possible, but am very thankful I have them when really needed for pain and imflammation.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Mona, please don't think we intend to let her suffer thro pain. She has been on the vet prescribed meds until the end of last week, starting daily and then being spread out to every other and finally every 4th day. The vet did not wish to see her on this pill for a prolonged period because it will damage her kidney's and liver, so we are looking at alternatives. When I say she has better and worse days, I do understand that worse days mean more discomfort, that is obvious, but I firmly believe that in her case, as a very active, high energy dog, lowering the amount of pain is good, masking it completely is not in her best interest since even in her kennel this dog will bounce about. I have already accepted that if she can not reach an entirely pain free state on her own after some months of being kept as quiet as possible or if she gets worse we will have to consider euthanasia. Her quality of life is our first concern but we'd like to give her a chance at recovery before we give up on her.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Every day is a gift.

I have had dogs that a vet gave me 6 month prognosis for life live 10 more years with high quality of life and I have had dogs where the vet said it would be ok and I lost them way too soon. Life is a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.

Enjoy her and don't worry. You are doing the best you can.

take care.. thanks for keeping me posted.

ps...I have shoulder tears too like Mona described. I know what that feels like and I have great days and I have days where I can't comb my hair and it makes me yell out loud when I move my arms. Sometimes I think they are all healed and then I move a bag of feed and I am right back to zero.

I think Mona was trying to tell you to keep diligent and I am sure she doesn't want you to get your heart broken if your dog suffers a relapse when you are hoping for continued progress.

For my dogs I eventually had to go with other options for various reasons. Rimadyl just isn't something my dogs tolerated for long treatment plans.

Yucca worked for one dog The traumeel for another dog also worked well. Acupuncture worked for another dog I had with an injury. Every dog is different and don't be afraid to try other natural options. I have beat the odds on dogs I thought were totally beyond treatment on occasion. That said I am also a believer in not allowing a dog to suffer either and I can tell by your posts that you are that sort of person too. hang in there.

Best wishes. thinking of you.