Why are we blind to serious conformation faults?

[miniwhinny]

Just what the title says...

Just in the past week I've seen breeding animals posted that have SERIOUS genetic conformation faults that would not be tolerated in the big horse world for one second and these horses would be passed up by most owners even as geldings (one was very club footed, one seriously over at the knee)and these animals were owned by known farms!

Why do we allow our animals to be bred without any thoughts to faults? I've tried to figure it out and my only answer is that we allow it because we can. No one is riding these animals, they're not raced, not jumped (with riders) etc. They don't have to be sound - just purdy

Isn't it time that we took our breeds conformation more seriously?

When I first got into this breed I was told that even some of the National winners had legs so crooked they'd make you cringe. I couldn't believe that, after coming from big horses, but it's true - I've seen them.

We NEED to wake up as breeders. A long hooky neck doesn't make up for clubbed feet...a nice topline doesn't make up for bad legs

 

[LittleBittyBritches]

We NEED to wake up as breeders. A long hooky neck doesn't make up for clubbed feet...a nice topline doesn't make up for bad legs

Amen to that!

 

[Reble]

Well, in my opinion the miniature horses have come a long ways.

I have seen a big difference with most people in putting conformation first.

So not sure where you have seen known farms with SERIOUS genetic conformation faults.

We sure have seen some nice horses being shown at the AMHR Nationals

and the AMHA Worlds this year.

 

[LittleBittyBritches]

Well, in my opinion the miniature horses have come a long ways.

I have seen a big difference with most people in putting conformation first.

So not sure where you have seen known farms with SERIOUS genetic conformation faults.

We sure have seen some nice horses being shown at the AMHR Nationals

and the AMHA Worlds this year.

Agree with that too Rebel!

 

[miniwhinny]

Not saying for one moment that there aren't some very nice horses out there and that the breed may have come a long way but that doesn't change the fact that there are breeding horses being used that have faults that shouldn't be passed along.

I'm also wondering if it's because you don't have to know much about horses to own and breed mini's because they are so small? When I was first shopping I went to farms that were selling every colt born still intact no questions asked. I guess gelding isn't cost productive if you're going to be charging the same amount. I guess the responsibility lies not only with the purchasers to know what they should be avoiding but also with the breeders who are selling poor quality animals still intact.

I'm shopping for a rather expensive cat breed at the moment and most breeders sell the kittens already fixed but those that don't withhold papers until you can show proof of having the animal spayed/neutered.

 

[cretahillsgal]

Just curious, what cat breed are you shopping for?

I totally agree. And I know I have been/am guilty. I've bought many horses because they "caught my eye" Only to get them home, really take a closer look and realize that that horse is not what should be bred. Part of that probably is because in the beginning I really did not know what to look out for. I'm not stupid, but I was ignorant to what makes a well-conformed horse. Its devistating when you realize that. Especially when you've paid alot more for the horse than it is worth.

I feel that I am slowly getting there. The quality of the horses I have now is MUCH improved over what I had in the beginning. But I also know I have a LONG way to go.

I've sold colts intact before that should be geldings. Why? Because its pretty hard to fork over $150 to geld a colt, that will only sell for $200. That said, I have appointments for 2 of my colts here now to be gelded in two weeks.

AND I backed WAY off with breeding this year. I have only 4 mares bred, compared to the 15 that I bred last year.

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

I feel that I am slowly getting there. The quality of the horses I have now is MUCH improved over what I had in the beginning. But I also know I have a LONG way to go.

I've sold colts intact before that should be geldings. Why? Because its pretty hard to fork over $150 to geld a colt, that will only sell for $200. That said, I have appointments for 2 of my colts here now to be gelded in two weeks.

AND I backed WAY off with breeding this year. I have only 4 mares bred, compared to the 15 that I bred last year.

Same here. We are all learning along the way

I look back at some of the horses we started out with and laugh. Of course we loved them all to death but some were definitely quite pet quality. We didn't know what we were looking at. I've learned a lot through 11 years of breeding and showing.

The "ideal" miniature horse is something that changes. Obviously you don't want any major faults but other things are opinion. Tall, short.... Araby, quarter horsey.... stocky, refined.... etc. Personally, I like horses with some bone to them....not super extremely refined with little tiny skinny legs. But, that may not be what a judge is looking for. MAJOR faults should not be bred, however no horse completely perfect (only in the owners eyes

)

I also sell pet quality colts intact and leave it up to the owner. I do not sell them to people that want to breed. Of course, I know that they could easily lie and do it anyways. I would love to have them gelded but here it cost like $300-400!!

 

[minimomNC]

There are usually only two reasons people breed horses that should never reproduce. They just don't know or they just don't care.

 

[miniwhinny]

There are usually only two reasons people breed horses that should never reproduce. They just don't know or they just don't care.

ROTFLMAO - THIS has to be one of the best quotes I've ever read - and so true

I would love to have them gelded but here it cost like $300-400!!

Wow, that's crazy expensive when you're producing multiple colts!

 

[miniwhinny]

Just curious, what cat breed are you shopping for?

That said, I have appointments for 2 of my colts here now to be gelded in two weeks.

AND I backed WAY off with breeding this year. I have only 4 mares bred, compared to the 15 that I bred last year.

Good for you

Cat breed....Savannah

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

Wow, that's crazy expensive when you're producing multiple colts!

Yeah!!! and we ALWAYS end up with more colts than fillies! Murphy's law....

Savannah cats are awesome.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Also learned along the way, and being in it since 2003 I feel like I know what I really want to breed. The problem is its easier to own miniatures then big horses, you can have more of them, I swear almost every farm owns a stallion, probably half of the miniature population stallions need to be gelded. There are farms out there, and yes even big known farms breed almost every mare they have, even 2 year olds so they can have a baby on the ground so they can make some money. Also many don't train these babies, so they just sit out in the pasture til somebody pays thousands of dollars for them and they end up having to train it yourself. You also have to look at your mares. Many weigh it so much on the stallion that they forget the mare has a lot to do with the resulting foal.

IMO the best way to do it is send your mares out to breed them to really nice proven stallions and get a really nice foal out of it. Sure you won't have that many babies on the ground but is that such a bad thing. That way breeders would be careful on which mare to send off and be selective and what they chose.

 

[miniwhinny]

IMO the best way to do it is send your mares out to breed them to really nice proven stallions and get a really nice foal out of it. Sure you won't have that many babies on the ground but is that such a bad thing. That way breeders would be careful on which mare to send off and be selective and what they chose.

This is such an important point!

It's so easy to breed your dozen mares to your stud if that's what you have...but I'm sure that one stallion couldn't bring out the best in all of those dozen mares. If you're paying $$$ for that special breeding then you're way more likely to make sure that both mare and stallion are not only breeding quality but the best examples available.

 

[targetsmom]

Why are we blind to serious conformation faults?

A lot of reasons have been mentioned already but I will add what I think are a few more:

- Minis are so adorable that many people overlook faults.

- Many people getting into minis have NO background in horses and have no idea of what to look for. I found though, that almost everyone can pick out the nice archy neck but not so many can identify a really well conformed rear end.

- Minis as a breed are still being improved, so the very best ones in terms of conformation and movement are hard to find and more expensive (even in a poor economy the best one will still bring more money). Since not everyone can afford - or find -the very best, the rest have to make compromises.

The best compliment I ever received on our minis - from two different advanced dressage riders (who know horse conformation), commenting on two different mares - is that they wish the mare was 16 hands instead of a mini!

We gelded our yearling colt at a cost of over $400 and will do it again for any colts not up to the high standard Max set.

 

[MindyLee]

BUT...

What one person calls conformation faults

others will disagree.

Also who out there decides whos stallions are only the best to be bred too? Also, just because someone may have one heck of a good looking mare or stud, dosnt mean they will produce one heck of a foal.

i look at it this way, no matter who the breeders are, known named or not. quality horses or not, they will always continue to breed regardless if they are made aware of their breeding program faults and flaws. Im sorry to say BUT there no such thing as a perfect breeding herd out there. no matter how much time, or money or selective breeding is involved. Thats why you as a buyer need to understand conformation and be careful in what you purchase.

 

[Ashley]

Same here. We are all learning along the way

I look back at some of the horses we started out with and laugh. Of course we loved them all to death but some were definitely quite pet quality. We didn't know what we were looking at. I've learned a lot through 11 years of breeding and showing.

The "ideal" miniature horse is something that changes. Obviously you don't want any major faults but other things are opinion. Tall, short.... Araby, quarter horsey.... stocky, refined.... etc. Personally, I like horses with some bone to them....not super extremely refined with little tiny skinny legs. But, that may not be what a judge is looking for. MAJOR faults should not be bred, however no horse completely perfect (only in the owners eyes

)

I also sell pet quality colts intact and leave it up to the owner. I do not sell them to people that want to breed. Of course, I know that they could easily lie and do it anyways. I would love to have them gelded but here it cost like $300-400!!

Honestly if you cant afford to geld the ones that need to be before they leave, then you probably shouldnt be breeding.

 

[miniwhinny]

BUT...

What one person calls conformation faults

others will disagree.

I totally agree with this when it comes to "type"...we all love our own favorite (Araby, QH, draft etc) and something like tail set is a perfect example. But a fault is a fault no matter what body type it's on. Club feet, sickle hocks, bad legs...the list goes on should not be accepted on ANY body type IMO

 

[Sandee]

Just curious, what cat breed are you shopping for?

I totally agree. And I know I have been/am guilty. I've bought many horses because they "caught my eye" Only to get them home, really take a closer look and realize that that horse is not what should be bred. Part of that probably is because in the beginning I really did not know what to look out for. I'm not stupid, but I was ignorant to what makes a well-conformed horse. Its devistating when you realize that. Especially when you've paid alot more for the horse than it is worth.

I feel that I am slowly getting there. The quality of the horses I have now is MUCH improved over what I had in the beginning. But I also know I have a LONG way to go.

I've sold colts intact before that should be geldings. Why? Because its pretty hard to fork over $150 to geld a colt, that will only sell for $200. That said, I have appointments for 2 of my colts here now to be gelded in two weeks.

AND I backed WAY off with breeding this year. I have only 4 mares bred, compared to the 15 that I bred last year.

Wow, wish we were down there last week 'cause I just paid over $300 here for gelding.

 

[Windhaven]

I would say serious conformational faults are crooked legs, toe out/in, sickle hocked, cow hocked, etc.

Bad bites, low poor neck sets, club foot, and many many more.

Since I usually only have one stallion at a time, I want him to be as close to perfect as possible. Straight good legs are one thing that is very important.

I bought a colt once for a breeding stallion. Since he was with a trainer, he had received many grands and reserves in showing. I asked all the questions about conformation and for more pictures. Since the colt was with the trainers it was hard to get pictures. When I asked about straight legs, she said "he wouldn't be getting grands and reserves with crooked legs" and sent me pictures from the ring side when he was set up.

I paid the top dollar for this colt and picked him up at a show he was delivered at. Well wouldn't you know, he toed out nicely in the front, starting at the knee on down.

I did find out that this bloodline does tend to toe out after I bought the horse and many many farms still use them. But I know for a fact not all of them toe out because I have had horses from this line before. But I specifically asked if he had straight legs and was told he did.

So yes people do over look faults if the horse is placing in the show ring.

In my opinion since most people do not come from big horse back ground they really don't know proper conformation. And it doesn't help when horses in the ring are winning with conformational faults. Most of this is because trainers/we are allowed to much hand placing of the horse in the ring which covers up their faults.

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

Honestly if you cant afford to geld the ones that need to be before they leave, then you probably shouldnt be breeding.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, obviously I disagree. Our vet doesn't geld until they are 8 months anyways and most are sold way before that. There's no way we are going to keep them until they are that old just to geld. I can't name any breeder in my area that does.