when things go wrong with vet clinics...

[pam]

I was wondering if anyone has pursued legal actions against a vet clinic, and whether you were successful/unsuccessful.

I had an experience last fall, and I was disputing some additional charges. I lost the mare in question. She had colic surgery at a university clinic and it turned out to be a fecalith. The clinic insisted on doing surgery, rather than trying other options or procedures done rectally, as they had lost a miniature the week before while trying to clear an obstruction rectally, and the clinicians were leery of trying this course of action. I was pressured into surgery, and I had a gut feeling this was wrong..... all that I accomplished was prolonging a painful death.............

I paid $1,300 for the colic surgery. Was charged almost another $1,300 for other fees, and I did not receive this bill until two months after the mare died. Long story, but I had my personal vet perform an autopsy, and about 80% of her intestines were rotten. Although the clinic took off $500, they insisted that I still owed $740. It is not the money, it was the principal, and I was disputing this amount. I was very surprised to learn that this clinic filed a claim against me, and is sueing me for this amount plus $70 filing fee. Not only is this embarrasing, but also extremely upsetting to have a summons hanging on my back door.

I would appreciate any advice/suggestions.

Pam

 

[Jill]

Urgh! I have no experience with this situation. My only colic surgery horse happily survived surgery as an 11mos old filly and now is an adult mare.

Hopefully, you'll get some good advice. As you lay out the facts, I understand how you feel as you do and from my perspective, I think you've got a good chance to win if it does go to court.

One thing I'd want to have in my hands is not just the necropsy report from your regular vet, but also a written statement from him (probably should be notarized?).

Good luck! And, I am very sorry about your mare!

 

[Dorrie & Frank]

Hi - I am attorney and have handled cases both directions - for the patient and for the vet. It is a tough case to make - you have to have an expert (vet) who will testify that the decision to use the surgical method to remove the fecalith in your horse's case fell below what a reasonable and prudent vet would do under the same or similar circumstances. Then you would need that expert to add that the fees are un-necessary and well above the community standard. I could see that most attorneys would not take the case on a contingent fee basis - where they pay all of the expenses and recover those puls their fee of anywhere from 30 - 45% when they otherside pays. I would suspect that most attorneys would only take it on an hourly fee basis which would eat up the amount in dispute very quicikly at $180 - $250 per hour. One thing you may be able to do is dispute the fee in small claims court. Here in Texas they are the Justice of the Peace courts - you would need to check in Indiana on what courts they are. You can represent yourself and the person who is the judge may not even be an attorney. They tend to go an equity basis - your horse died - the fees are high - they'll cut some of the fees off.

I wish I had better news for you. I can tell that my dughter had a gorgeous senior stallion (she bought from Tony- but Tony had just bought him) he had not been handled and was very aggressive as a stallion. She took him to a lady who was a US olympic dressage team member when they won the ? bronze? and now she was only training - she had us take him to a stable on Monday night - Thursday am he was dead from a colic. I know that the staff fed him the same as the big horses plus he was not cooled down properly after working out - Even at that I knew it was not enough evidence for us to sue successfully so we did not. It was a huge loss emotionally. Thanks to the mini folks giving her moral support she chose to stay in minis and not go to big horse dressage. The mini experience as she grew up was invaluable for all of life's lessons and being prepared for "cold cruel world"! It's an awful loss for you but hang in there. We need you here.

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

I lost a 2 1/2 month old filly last March, my vet preformed surgery on 2 hind legs and when he rolled her over to start the second leg..she died. My bill was almost $1,000.00 for the one leg that was already done. Nothing was deducted due to the fact she died, but I paid the bill in full, because it was not the vets fault she passed, they tried to save her and do everything possible. My vet was very upset over losing her, good mini vets are very hard to find, and I like to always be on good terms with my vets, you just never know when you will need them again. I didnt even think of not paying the bill. I guess if I were you--IMO--and had this GUT feeling, I wouldnt of had the surgery done, but regardless it was preformed, and I am sure it was to the vets best ability. I do understand where your coming from, but I guess I would feel like yes, you do owe the bill...SORRY.IMO- You should of talked with the clinic in advance and found out what exact services you would be paying if your mare did pass, and you could of also worked out a payment plan with them, I am sorry you lost your mare, and sorry you have this claim against you. Corinne

 

[CountryHaven]

I'm so sorry you're hurting. I know how hard it is to think rationally when you're in pain from loosing a beloved horse, and the additional need to pay the enormous bill seems to only add insult to injury. I had a similar situation last year. My mare under intense vet care died, and left behind a 3000 dollar bill. It is very hard to swallow the need to pay off a $3000 debt when the horse is dead. It's hard enough to pay that off when you have a happy outcome lol. But it wasn't the vets fault she died. He did everything possible in his power to not let it happen. Although we did know at the onset that it wasn't a great prognosis, and we could only 'try'. It was sort of a 50/50 shot at the start, but we certainly were going to try. I loved that little mare.

Anyway, colic surgery seems so commonplace anymore that I think we just assume it will go okay, but it's not as cut and dried as it seems. It's a very major surgery, and even at it's best is still risky. Sometimes too, I think there's just no way to know exactly what they're going to find once they get in there and it can sometimes be a surprise how bad it really is. Sure an autopsy can show how badly damaged the intestines were, but it might not have been possible to know that exact thing before the surgery on a live animal until it was too late.

I'm not saying 'you're not right', I just think maybe you're in too much pain at the moment, and it can take a long time to get over that type of pain, to make a completely rational decision about the bill. I think perhaps it hurts to be sued for the money too, but in the vets defense, they are a business, and they don't have the luxery of such an emotional attachement. They still have to recover their costs, even when the patient dies.

 

[pam]

I just wanted to clarify, that this was NOT my personal vet, but a university training hospital. I have had other miniature owners make complaints about this facility, and I am sure that I will never go back....

The second bill included the extended stay - after we drove a four hour trip to pick her up as directed and then told she was not "right" - and "tests" where they scoped her and said her intestines were clear and free of ulcers and other obstructions. I question how this could be with the severity of the shape of her insides discovered by the necropsy.

I have good credit and am a responsible person..... I will most likely just pay the bill and chalk it up to a huge mistake, but this bothers me greatly.

Pam

 

[txminipinto]

I'm very sorry you lost your mare. But as someone who runs anesthesia on equine patients for elective and non-elective procedures, I'm not sure you have a case. If 80% of your mare's intestines were rotten then she had many more problems than just a fecalith. A fecalith, like an entrolith, is a simple impaction which may or maynot be resolved with medical treatment. It's much like a foreign body in a small animal patient. Provided your vet did the necropsy immediately following the surgery, 80% of "rotten" or necrotic intestinal tract sounds more like a torsion which impeded blood flow to that section of intestines cutting off blood supply thus killing the intestine. It is possible to resect that dead intestine, but its very risky, has its limits (80% sounds like too much), and has the increased possibility of another colic due to adhesions in a matter of days.

After reading your reply to other post before this one, please clarify when your mare became deceased (during or after surgery).

 

[KanoasDestiny]

I feel really bad for your situation. I was in a similar situation a little over a year ago with a vet clinic, although it dealt with a kitten instead of a horse. In my situation, I took Jasper in because he was dehydrated. They put him on an IV and the next day he was 100% perfect. The vet talked me into keeping him there the remainder of the weekend, although it was against my better judgement and he "bullied" me to do it. The vet's assistance admitted to us that according to the other staff members, she was over feeding him. I went to pick him up first thing Monday morning and he was on the verge of death. They said that he was just miserable because he had very bad constipation and they had to give him a couple enemas. I asked to take him home (I have this thing that if an animal is going to die, it needs to be home where they are in loving hands) and they refused saying that they needed to keep him until he passed a stool. Now granted, he was having difficulty breathing (and was in no oxygen chamber) and I don't think he was interested in pooping. I stayed with him for nearly two hours, promising him that I would come back to take him home. I left not too happy, and waited until my husband got home from work. I feared that he was already dead at this point, so I let my husband go in to pick him up (we cremate our pets). Jasper was still alive, though he never passed a stool and they were trying really hard to make it so my husband didn't see him, not alone bring him home. My husband refused to leave without him, and sure enough he brought him out with him. Jasper was very close to death, and I know he was suffering. We drove home as fast as we could and he died in my arms 10 minutes after he came home.

I was so mad at the vet and myself. Had I only listened to my heart and brought him home when he was perfect that Saterday afternoon. But unfortunately I didn't. I tried to turn the vet into whoever I could, the city, the vet organization, etc. Everyone that I contacted said that it sounded like the vet did what he felt was best. I got the complete run around every which way I turned. So my warning to you, is make sure that you have the autopsy report to prove the vet was incapable in diagnosing the problem. And just be on guard because in a situation like this, they like to throw it in your face that the vet did what he thought best! Best of luck to you in yor fight, and by no means, let this rest as it took some nerve for them to kill your horse, then try to take you for the money to do so. My heart goes out to you.

 

[Frankie]

Pam, I would like to know the name of the clinic, if you would pm it to me.

Not sure of the legal part, but did want to say how very sorry I was for the loss of your mare. :no:

 

[Marty]

Pam I feel really bad for you and what has happened.

The thing that bothers me here is that you said you were pressured into this.

I can imagine that by this time you were so distraught and just gave into their option of surgery. It sounds like they just mentally wore you down.

But the fact remains that you did give the ok. You did not say "no"........and then they proceeded.

They could not proceed if you had just said "no"

You are the one that made the choice and gave them the green light to proceed.

I honestly think that you should go to them and have a meeting of the minds here on this and try to get them to resolve this without ruining your credit. I think they are at a place where they can bargin and come down on the money. I would try it. It certainly cannot hurt. Otherwise I would definitely take my chances in court and appeal to the judge and tell him about this terrible pressure that you were up against by them and you felt co-arsed into agreeing with them. In other words, they played on your weakend mental state.

 

[txminipinto]

Otherwise I would definitely take my chances in court and appeal to the judge and tell him about this terrible pressure that you were up against by them and you felt co-arsed into agreeing with them. In other words, they played on your weakend mental state.

At the risk of being flamed, I take great offense to the above statement. As a member of an anesthetic/surgical team at a teaching hospital, I can assure you that we do not "co-arse" our clients into surgical procedures. Surgery is the last option, but unfortunately sometimes the only option. University DVMs and RVTs(nor private practice either) are not sitting around looking for the next owner we can talk into surgery. Anesthesia and surgery are risky and carry inherent risks in all of our patients. We take an oath every day to do no harm and do what's best for our patient at the time it is in our care. We lay your options out for you and recommend what's best for the patient. Only you can decide what we can and can not do. Even if a patient recovers from anesthesia, the recovery process after the surgery has its risks and complications. I've seen several horses survive the initial surgical procedure only to be euthanized later due to acute complications.

 

[Jill]

Just to clarify my thinking in the original post I made, I don't think that she has a case possibly because the horse died, but because the way I read it (and I'm not an expert) is that it sounds like the surgery would not have been correctly recommended if further testing was done, or when opening her up and seeing rotten intestines, then she should have been put to sleep on the table (?).

I'm very aware that with vets, we are not paying for results really. We are paying for a service that everyone homes will have a positive outcome.

 

[pam]

I am at work, but I will recheck the exact days that she was in the hospital and how many days at home before she died, but it was over a week at the clinic. She was home for around 5 days, and my personal vet was out 4 times. When I called the clinic, the only advice they would give me is to increase her banamine.

She received around the clock care by me at our barn, including IV's near the end. My vet did his best to help me save her. My vet indicated that the intestines rotted because of infection and lesions from the surgery.

 

[txminipinto]

7 or more days in an ICU section of a teaching hospital can add up. I know here, it's $50/day just for the stall (doesn't include any care or meds). I can't comment on what the clinic told you in regards to the banamine because I don't know the history of the case. But, lesions (or adhesions) are very common following any kind of abdominal surgery and could potentially cause issues with the intestinal tract. As far as an infection, I would want to know where the infection came from. Was it from the initial issue, was the abdomen contaminated with bacteria from the intestinat tract (from either the initial issue or from cutting the intestinal wall), contamination from the surgery itself (contaminate instruments, etc), or did it result post up from bacterial invadence of the incision site.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Hi Dr. Pam,

Sorry you're having this problem. I know of a number of mini owners that will not go to the local vet teaching hospital for the very reason you mentioned. If you want to PM me, I can give you the names of a few people out here in CA, one I know was considering litigation.

Carin, I do respect your opinion on this, as you obviously are dedicated and have always provided sound advice on the Forum, but some teaching hospitals, specifically some vets do put alot of pressure on horse owners to jump to surgery. I've been down that road with UC Davis on a couple of occasions. UCDavis has wonderful vets, and does the majority of the work on our horses - on site. The teaching staff at the school though, not always my favorite people to deal with. But its the same of some of the visiting vets. We've had fabulous ones and a few that well they should have picked another profession!

I'm not implying your school would pressure anyone into surgery, but when a person is stressed and worried about their horse, the additional emotional pressure or the 'you dumb horse owner, I'm the vet and know all attitude' for not doing surgery - it's not right. I'm not saying all vets are this way, but there are a couple on staff at UCD I will not work with - period! If I have an emergency and they're my choice I won't go - last year I bypassed them with six different emergencies driving 60+ miles to the next hospital.! It isn't worth the additional stress to deal with jerks, so won't.

Last year I had a colt in renal failure (undiagnosed at the time) on its way to UCD - the vet on call there told me without asking his condition, etc., was I ready to spend X number of dollars just for the exam and it would cost xx at the minimum. Not the best way to approach things - I bypassed him and drove 60 miles to another vet hospital because of his S#$%%y attitude.

I've had the same issue with them regarding a rush to colic surgery (horse didn't need it and that was five years ago), although I was told on four separate occasions that I was risking his life by not doing surgery. They guessed at a fecolith (couldn't find it on xray, sonogram) but it was there in there opinion and I should have him undergo a serious surgery $5-10K quoted price btw, all the while they wouldn't oil him, they were just keeping him comfortable on an IV drip. Three days of arguing with them, and my finally threatening to pick him up, they oiled him, gave him an enema and he pooped - a $1,800 poop at that.

And with a mare and bad dystocia. This one fortunately was with a different vet, a repro expert and I told him my position on surgery and asked his opinion - fortunately surgery was avoided as we had a meeting of the minds.

So, I won't knock your profession, but not all vets, hosptials or schools are equal.

Best of luck Dr. Pam. hopefully you'll get a good resolution to this.

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

I could tell you a couple of stories that are ridiculous about horses I've brought up to the teaching hospital and what went on. I really have found I can't step back and let the Professionals make all the decisions and now I make sure I am also included in all decision making.

Sorry to hear about your ordeal. I hope things work out- maybe a mediator instead of court?

Tammie

 

[Marty]

undefinedAt the risk of being flamed, I take great offense to the above statement.

Carin I surely do understand what you are saying here and I do tend to agree with you.

However the poster states that she felt like she was under great pressure by the clinic to go for the surgery and like I said, when some people are under so much stress in a situation like this, they can probably just fold up and say ok ok ok just do it and really don't mean it if people are pressuring them. I once had a vet insist on doing a procedure on a dog I had that was so very sick and I was just so upset I simply couldn't even think straight. All I saw was the vet and two technictions huddled over me saying "you have to do this, you have to do this" and I just broke down and said ok when I didn't really mean ok. I do feel I was co-arsed and do believe that this happens from time to time in some places. It also happened to my family when we were co-arsed by doctors and nurses and clergy to take my brother off of life-support.

 

[txminipinto]

I understand being under emotional stress with a sick animal - I had a 4 month old pup die from ARDS and wanted to do everything but there were no options. And I do know that there are DVMs out there that can pressure clients into making descisions. But sometimes, when an animal's life is in danger, we have to take off the kid gloves and lay it all on the table. My whole point in even responding to this topic is from the limited history I've read, it sounds like there was much more going on. However, I do feel like I have to defend the veterinary community at the same time when the vet bashing starts. We work hard for very little when compared to our human medical counterparts and the amount that is charged is nothing compared to what the human side charges. I make roughly $30k a year, I could turn around go back to school and become a nurse anesthetist and make $100K a year. But I don't because I love what I do(and I don't particularly care for humans to begin with!) So, forgive me if my hackles come up a little.

:

 

[pam]

I really appreciate all the PM's and good advice received from this forum. There are good vets and bad vets, like any profession, and my post was not written to degrade the profession in any way. I have an excellent equine vet and an excellent small animal vet. I respect them and trust them. However, I do feel that vets should be accountable and admit to mistakes, and also treat their clients responsibly and fairly. I am not sure how I will proceed yet, but I sure have learned a lot from this situation - basically what NOT to do in the future.

Thanks again to the members who were kind and supportive. I appreciate it a lot.

Pam