What should now happen?

[MindyLee]

I have a friend who sold a colt about 30 days ago, along with another to a local lady. 1st off the buyer has NO ideal how to even handle a horse, but anyway she got both colts home that night and for some reason but a baby gate, yes a baby gate in between them in a closed shed for the night. WELL you know what happed, they knocked the baby gate down and the next morning when they went to feed one of the colts was dragging his back leg around like it was broken. (it was severly locked in my opnion)The buyer called the seller to ask what she should do, buyer said call vet NOW! Vet went out, quickly looked at colt and told the buyer that the little guy was born with this issue and it is so serious that she was ripped off and needs to put him down. Buyer calls seller bace screaming and crying about what vet told her, seller tells her sounds like injury cause of the gate get a 2nd opnion. So buyer gets 2nd vet out, (buddys with 1st vet) He agrees with 1st vet, quick look over, born with the problem she got ripped off.

I am the ladys farrier and did the foals hoofs since he was born, not once have I witnessed a limp stiffle nothing. Sounds like really bad injury to me. Seller took the foal back and offered another to replace him but buyer took her $$$ back instead. Since than, seller has had her vet out and he looked him over very carefully and came to the conclusion that the foal was badly injured, now has a stiffle issue due to what we guess the baby gate. Colt is on meds and he has'nt locked since he was returned for about a week now.

I guess what I am curious about is, how would you sell this colt now that he is damaged goods because of the pervious buyer. He was pet quality to begin with and I personally would give him away to a good loving home where he can recieve all the love he can get. What would you do in this situation???

I think the seller went over fences to make the buyer happy and took the colt back and even offered her another colt with a 30 day garentee or refund her $$$ back.

 

[esty]

Sounds like a stifle problem to me. Sometimes the problem wont show its self until they are standing in a stall and no turnout. I have a colt that no one would ever even guess he had a problem unless they saw him after a day in a stall, then is is totally locked up. Not saying it wasnt an injury but a baby gate that could be used as a divider sounds like a pretty small stall to begin with.

I would either give the buyer a credit or swap for another colt.

Stifle problems usually resolve themselves if its a youngster as they grow , there are also things that can be done to help him.

Esty

 

[LittleRibbie]

I give your friend credit for just returning the idiots $$ and taking back the colt I WOULD NOT however offer her another colt and I would most likely try to get the other one back too. Sounds to me the women needs to learn alittle more about horses before starting up her horse keeping. Most likely just a novice horse person.

As far as your friend keeping or selling the colt....just be honest and have her explain what she thinks happened. You, being the farrier and working with this horse should carry some weight and have your friends vet also do an exam.

Its unfortunate that it is costing your friend alot of $$$ for something that wasnt even her fault and now she will not get that $$ back but at least she is doing whats best for the horse

Personally as long as the seller is honest and up front with the buyer or the person she decides to GIVE the horse to and the buyer is fully aware of what long term special care ( if any...this may just go away ) I dont see any problems and damaged goods or not...this horse can lead a great life....and deserves one!!

I do find it strange that the seller didnt ask where this horse would be housed and cared for....this person must have just had all the right answers.

 

[Riverdance]

Babies can just slip and fall and knock their hips out of alignment. That would be all it would take to have a stifle lock. With the help of a chiropractor, a little bit of care and exercise,the locked stifle problem would most likely be a thing of the past.

Sounds like the vets did not do any research on the problem and where not exposed to it before. Even large horse babies can have this problem and do. Most outgrow it.

Too many people think that a stifle problem is only hereditary. Often it is the conformation of the leg that gives one chronic stifle problems (not hereditary except for the fact that conformation is hereditary). Many times it is a injury of a young horse that is the culprit and most clear up and never have a problem again.

 

[krissy3]

without an x-ray no one has the right to diganose the problem but a vet , in this case . I understand the buyer not wanting another horse from the seller . She is upset and out of a little money from the vet , and thinks it could have been avoided if the owner would have told the woman it had a problem in the first place . been there done that but kept the horse. I dont believe a flimsy plastic gate could cause that much damage, a kick from the other horse could though , but you would need an x-ray to confirm that. People on this forum usually think its the buyers responsibility to make sure they are purchasing a good horse from the seller, well she found out rather quickly that she didnt buy a good horse , so she asked for her money back. Here in switzerland you have 30 days to return ANYTHING if you are not happy, no questions , no ands ifs or buts. I also have to say in defence of the buyer... do you have proof that she used a baby gate? how does one baby gate fit the width or length to devide a shed in half? baby gates only go about 1 1/2 yards...about 50 inches . some babygates are made of fabric, or netting, some out of wood. Sounds like the buyer is also out of money with 2 vet exams. Saying she didnt know how to handle horses is an oppinion, did the seller ask if she had been around horses before? If she said "not really" then why on earth did the seller not educate her, or tell her that the horse could stay with her until she had a suitable place to keep the horse? I had an inspection on my property by a seller before she let me have her 2 shetlands, she noticed one area that could be dangerious , and we fixed it , end of story. I feel for the seller , and for the buyer, sounds like both are a bit at fault. Selling two stallions to a beginner horse person was NOT a good idea.

 

[MindyLee]

I do know that the seller has a 30 day garentee and was not aware of any leg issues nore did I as all foals look and walk just fine. Seller did ask where the colts where going to be housed and was told in a big 14x14 shed. How they divided it which icluded a baby gate in there some how was never mentioned untill after the accident. I can see if a stiffle could come about in a small stall over night BUT this colt is stalled every night in a 8x8 with his dam till weaned and never showed any issues. When buyers said baby gate and leg dragging, Im mean come on, common sence would tell you 1st dont use a baby gate, and 2nd you go to bed with the colt fine and wake up to him dragging his leg and the baby gate is in the other side of the shed, duh to the owners that he was injured in the night because of the baby gate. I am sorry but the stupidest new owner in the world should know not to use a baby gate. BUT I guess there are some out there. But for the sellers sake, she is writing up a contract for her foals/horses that she sells in the future that it will be datailed about compleat sales.

OOH - 1 more thing which I just found out, seller did offer a vet check before selling both colts on her own expence, but buyer waved that right. Its to bad for the foal But he just might be coming to my place later today for his recovery and to find him a great loving home with someone who will give him all the love he needs. Im also going to see about having him gelded too.

I do think it is wrong for a vet to take a quick look at the foal and say all these nasty things about it & the seller before doing a full exam 1st and scaring the daylights out of the buyer. I also do know that this vet has done this with many mini farms as he is not a real fan of miniatures either. The buyer was very nice about the whole thing and is a repeat buyer at this farm as she has bought goats as well. Buyer also went to the farm and seen these colts several times before purchasing them as well and agreed to seeing NO signs of leg issues till the day of the accident. So the whole thing is wierd to begin with BUT buyer and seller are happy with the over all thing as both parties are happy at this point. The buyer got her $$$ back, and seller got the colt back & got his leg back to somewhat normal, and he's on the mend. Seller just wanted to make things right and did. Also Buyer will be back next years birthing season to buy baby goats so there is no hard feelings here, just a little confusion of the colts leg from everyone.

 

[Firefall]

For whats it worth I just went through this same thing. Had a gorgeous show filly headed out to CA. About a week before she was to be picked up she started to lock. I had never seen her do that before, made me sick and very upset as a breeder trying for quality show horses this is NOT what I wanted to EVER see in my foals.

Anyway, she being in with other foals I was hoping it was an injury. It seemed to get worse as time went on. This was on the third day, I talked to the new owners and offered other foals. They didn't want any and all though I don't refund cash I did this time. (didn't put it in the contract, lesson learned). Anyway after talking with them and agreeing on the refund, the next day the filly was walking beautifully without any problem at all!!!! What a relief. However, not really knowing if it was just an injury or not I gave her to a pet home and she is loved and well cared for.

I feel this was best for all involved as I knew IF this was a problem she was born with she should not be bred and won't. I have felt really good that it worked out but at the same time felt bad for the new owners cause they were really looking forward to having her there.

 

[~Lisa~]

Well first off you might not like what I am going to say but now saying the buyer doesnt even know how to handle a horse well that is partly the sellers fault. The seller still chose to sell her 2 young colts knowing she was inexperienced. Perhaps next time more she can be a bit more careful about where she places young horses it is hard for all of us to do that I realize but housing aside 2 young colts in the hands of someone inexperienced can result in disaster.

Often the problem can arise- a horse can be born with a bad stifle and no one see it for even a couple of years or more. They do not normally lock and stay locked -they do not always limp or look sore- often it is just a matter of luck to be out with the horse at the right moment in time and see it lock. You could have gone out or looked at horse 5 minutes prior or 5 minutes after and never noticed a thing. The majority of time a locked stifle is not something a horse deals with 24/7 and even a attentive owner can surely miss seeing it lock for weeks or months at a time.

Once you know what to look for like drag marks in stall that 95 percent of people would not even notice unless you were looking for it you may spot an issue sooner but I think the majority of mini owners do not notice it and of course when they do it is a injury no way it could be something else. The reality is.. this is a very common issue in minis and it is common for a reason...

With 2 vets obviously since this owner is a new horse owner and does not have these vets coming to her place all the time they gave a unbiased opinion it was a stifle issue not caused by a recent injury as a seller she did the right thing in taking the horse back

and now he can live with you and find a new pet home where they will be aware of his stifle issues no matter what the cause.

 

[Riverdance]

without an x-ray no one has the right to diagnose the problem but a vet , in this case 2

From what I understand, neither vet did x-rays. It is not hard to diagnose a locked stifle and one does not need x-rays to see it. Unfortunately, it seems these vets were not up on all conditions, especially with Minis. There are many vets in the US I would not send my worst enemy to!!!

I don't believe a flimsy plastic gate could cause that much damage,

A foal could be just fine for months and a simple fall, knocking out the hips alignment can cause a locked stifle, so a trip over a baby gate could surely do it!!! Once the hip is back in alignment and the foal exercised a bit, it is very possible that it will never show the condition again!!! We are not talking major damage here. It does not take much for a baby to lock up a stifle.

I understand the buyer not wanting another horse from the seller......... and thinks it could have been avoided if the owner would have told the woman it had a problem in the first place

You seem to be blaming the seller for something she had no knowledge of. I may suggest that before you condemn her, you get on line and do some research on Locking stifles.

well she found out rather quickly that she didn't buy a good horse

I am in agreement with the seller, it seems the problem is the buyers fault not the sellers. Too often buyers do really STUPID things and when the horse is injured, they are quick to blame it on the seller.

Years ago, I sold an Arabian to some people. They came to the farm that she was at, picked her up totally sound and when they got home, they said she was not sound. They tried to get their money back, but their child slipped during the discussion and mentioned that the mare fell off the trailer and came up lame from the fall. (I bet the kid got it when they took her home)

Now if we had laws like Switzerland that the buyer has 30 days to totally destroy an animal and get their money back, no questions asked, many buyers would be returning just about anything they bought. Buyers can have a vet check before they pick up or have the horse picked up, then both parties are aware of the fact that there is nothing wrong with the horse (something that both buyers and sellers should be doing) Then there is no dispute when the horse arrives with a problem or gets one shortly after.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

OK, this may sound a little harsh but, honestly, what was she thinking??

Why would you sell a colt to someone who does not only not know how to handle them (yes, I think we have all done that at least once?) but has no idea how to keep them, either?????

As said, we have all done something like this, but when I have done this it has been to a vetted (ie personally looked over) home with people who take advice and have mentors available...most people, I have found actually are glad of instruction, and those that aren't don't get a foal form me, sorry.

OK, on to what has happened.

Again, going to sound harsh, but I have been doing this for too long to mess around.

I would not have refunded the money until I had my own vets opinion of the animal.

Having that (and I believe your friend and her vet are right, here, it is an injury, ) I would not have refunded the money.

They could take me to court if they wanted, no court in any land would award in their favour.

OK, now on to the injury.

Stifle problems caused by injury can and do clear up with no further problems.

There may or may not be a weakness in the joint but allowing for the age of the animal, you would be AMAZED at how much a foal can bounce back form, you really would.

I thin this colt could well go on to be a rewarding family pet and driving pony.

Kudos to your friend for stepping up to the plate and thinking of the foal, but I think it is her who has been ripped off.

I am basing my opinions purely on the facts as they have been given, and accepting them to be truthful and accurate, this is all we can ever do.

Please tell her I wish her luck, and to be a little more careful next time!!

 

[garyo]

I'm going to come from a slightly different buyer's perspective. The first driving horse we ever bought was from a friend. She had bought him as a colt, gelded him and green broke him to drive. He was not sold to us as a potential world champion or anything, just a sweet little gelding learning to drive. He was not in great condition, not very muscular and kind of thin. I fell in love when I first saw him, kind of like a Charlie Brown X-mas tree. We drove him at her place in a deep sand arena. He began to favor one leg. I was not familiar with locking stifles at the time. We thought that we had just overstressed him in the deep sand. (I know stupid novice buyers.) Anyway, as you probably all well suspect by now he has continued to have a seasonal stifle issue. It doesn't lock. It catches if his hooves are long about 3 mos. out of the year. He just walks with an extra snap to his walk to make it flip loose. We paid too much for him in retrospect but I adore him. He loves to drive and even when his stifle is causing him difficulty it appears to cause him no pain. He seems to know he is loved and you can do anything with him. We make an extra effort to keep his hooves trimmed and his back toes squared. Somewhere out there, there is a home like ours with someone like me who will love this colt, stifle issue or not. Please just do them the favor of teaching them about locking stifles when they fall in love with him so that he can live a happy pain free life.

Ruth

 

[barnbum]

Well first off you might not like what I am going to say but now saying the buyer doesnt even know how to handle a horse well that is partly the sellers fault. The seller still chose to sell her 2 young colts knowing she was inexperienced. Perhaps next time more she can be a bit more careful about where she places young horses it is hard for all of us to do that I realize but housing aside 2 young colts in the hands of someone inexperienced can result in disaster.

Oh gosh, I don't have experience with stifle issues, or how an injury can result in one, but Lisa's words were my first thought.

I'd want to get the other colt back, too. Who knows what will happen?

 

[krissy3]

Riverdance... you dont know me well enough to assume I dont know anything about stiffle issues. Maybe I know quite a lot? It could have happened in an "accident " or the horse could have been born with it. A VET should be the one to determine how and why it happened , not the breeder , not the seller not the farrier. It is very one sided. I am sorry for the horse, the breeder and seller, but to point the finger on the buyer is completely unfair. Just as unfair as it is to point the finger at the breeder( seller) They were both at fault. X ray or not, the Vets are more qualified to determine what happend, and why.I have a horse in rehab now from a stiffle issue, I am working closely with a specialist (vet) , a trainer , and a farrier ... I have learned a lot about stiffle issues...minor and major... for the record my breeder didnt know the horse she was selling had an issue, her knees have not locked, I purchased the horse knowing there was an issue, and we would have to help he grow out of this safely , and with the right care, as I origionally thought , she seems to be growing out of it, she will be fine in another 6 months or so. In my care she has not had a fall, injury , or strain from exercise...We should all be more paticular about who we sell our horses to. For those of you that do home inspections first ...GOOD FOR YOU !! I d be handing out the book "Horses for Dummys" to every person I sold a horse to, along with the Vets guide to owning a miniature horse. Its 40 bucks out of you pocket , and a restfull night.

 

[Sue_C.]

I d be handing out the book "Horses for Dummys" to every person I sold a horse to, along with the Vets guide to owning a miniature horse. Its 40 bucks out of you pocket , and a restfull night.

I think the Vet's guide to Miniature Horses wouldn't be a bad choice, although any book on horse care would be good...minis are the same as any horse or pony, and there are other books just as good, for less $$.

BUT..."Horses for Dummies" would be the LAST book I would ever consider for anyone interested in miniaure horses. I was so dismayed and disgusted when I opened that book to "Miniature Horse", and read that first sentence. I think it reads..."The Miniature Horse is the DWARF of the equine World". Well, that did it for me. I even contacted the authors and gave them a head's up on their mistake. I am not sure if the newer version has ever been changed...but I would hope so.

I used to supply Coffey's book, "Horse of the Future", but ran out a few years ago.

Sorry...just a personal vent about that particular book...

 

[Riverdance]

Riverdance... you dont know me well enough to assume I dont know anything about stiffle issues. Maybe I know quite a lot? It could have happened in an "accident " or the horse could have been born with it. A VET should be the one to determine how and why it happened , not the breeder , not the seller not the farrier. It is very one sided. I am sorry for the horse, the breeder and seller, but to point the finger on the buyer is completely unfair. Just as unfair as it is to point the finger at the breeder( seller) They were both at fault. X ray or not, the Vets are more qualified to determine what happend, and why.I have a horse in rehab now from a stiffle issue, I am working closely with a specialist (vet) , a trainer , and a farrier ... I have learned a lot about stiffle issues...minor and major... for the record my breeder didnt know the horse she was selling had an issue, her knees have not locked, I purchased the horse knowing there was an issue, and we would have to help he grow out of this safely , and with the right care, as I origionally thought , she seems to be growing out of it, she will be fine in another 6 months or so. In my care she has not had a fall, injury , or strain from exercise...We should all be more paticular about who we sell our horses to. For those of you that do home inspections first ...GOOD FOR YOU !! I d be handing out the book "Horses for Dummys" to every person I sold a horse to, along with the Vets guide to owning a miniature horse. Its 40 bucks out of you pocket , and a restfull night.

I am not assuming that you know nothing about stifles, but you did attack this poster rather harshly and all I am saying is that there are two sides to any story.

We have all been beginner owners in the past, and all of us have sold to beginner owners in the past and will do so in the future. We hope to educate the beginner as best we can, but still, things can happen.

Unfortunately in our society, it is always someone else's fault.

You may think that your horse never had a fall while in your care, but just being cast in a stall can cause a stifle to lock. Perhaps your horse fell in its stall or got cast for a while and ended up with a locked stifle. Something perhaps you will never know.

As for vets being more qualified, it depends on the vet. Many parts of our country the vets do either small animal, cats and dogs, or large animals, meaning cattle. Some do both, leaving horses as a small part of their business, so they really do not know all that much. I am fortunate to be living in an area where not only do we have a University that teach veterinary medicine, but several highly skilled horse only vets to choose from. Others are not so fortunate.

 

[krissy3]

I thought every state in the US had an Equine vet. I guess I was wrong. Is there anyone that lives in a state without an Equine vet? If so , what do you do? I paid a little more and trailered my horse out to him, because we also have livestock vets. Horse people dont like to use them, so we go to Zurich. Fortunatly my horse does not have nor has she (to my knowledge) ever had a locking stiffel. Stiffles dont have to lock to be a problem. My stall is very large, about 40 feet by 20, I live in a historical house that was a stall for about 50 sheep, so the entire bottom level of my house is a stall, I dont think she can cast in such an area. I also believe there are 2 sides to every story,( we are in agreement ) however , I made the mistake of being the devils advocate and speeking on behalf of the buyer. Silly me , wont happen again.

 

[LittleRibbie]

Sue, I also looked at the Dummies book and was very surprised about the dwarf comment...never purchased the book. Maybe Im being very partial but I would suggest Happy Horsekeeping with Dirty Holly.....ummm...wonder why. Actually it really is one of my favorites and really deals w/minis in particular.

 

[chandab]

I thought every state in the US had an Equine vet. I guess I was wrong. Is there anyone that lives in a state without an Equine vet? If so , what do you do?

I live very rural in Montana. My regular vet is 65 miles from here, he takes care of the dogs and the cattle, he doesn't care to work on horses (but does have knowledge of them, so I can consult him, but he'd rather not work on them). A new vet just moved into a town 45 miles from here, I do not know what their equine knowledge and skills are and haven't had the time to check it out, but will (in the past this clinic has not be the most reliable, and that was with 2 previous vets that worked there at different times). The closest good equine vet that I know of is 150 miles from here and in another state. [The closest good equine vet in state is probably 5-6 hours from here, but I do not know for certain, as I choose to go to the out of state vet if I need to.] Montana is a very large state, and in this half of the state, cattle are more important than horses, so if there is a large animal vet, they are more likely to be knowledgeable in cattle (and other commodity livestock), than horses. [When I was in college (in state), I had a very good equine vet; that town is 10 hours from here and that vet tragically passed away.]

 

[Annabellarose]

I thought every state in the US had an Equine vet. I guess I was wrong. Is there anyone that lives in a state without an Equine vet? If so, what do you do? I paid a little more and trailered my horse out to him, because we also have livestock vets. Horse people dont like to use them, so we go to Zurich. Fortunatly my horse does not have nor has she (to my knowledge) ever had a locking stiffel. Stiffles dont have to lock to be a problem. My stall is very large, about 40 feet by 20, I live in a historical house that was a stall for about 50 sheep, so the entire bottom level of my house is a stall, I dont think she can cast in such an area. I also believe there are 2 sides to every story,( we are in agreement ) however , I made the mistake of being the devils advocate and speeking on behalf of the buyer. Silly me, wont happen again.

I currently live in a state (Kentucky) that has quite a few top equine veterinarians and top equine hospitals, but the majority of them are over 90 miles away from where I live. My local veterinarian is a wonderful person, but he, himself, told me that he is afraid of horses and prefers to work on cows. I do not understand that because cows are usually much larger than horses and are usually wild, most horses can be haltered and will have some level of training. If I had a horse that needed (any kind of) surgery or needed care above and beyond routine vaccinations, a Coggins test, a health certificate, or care for a small cut I would have to haul it 90+ miles and pay A LOT at a top equine hospital that mainly treats Thoroughbred and Standardbred racehorses. Luckily, I have owned horses for over 20 years and I have never had to haul a horse out for veterinary care, but I am way overdue.

Also, a horse can get cast against a tree in a 100 acre field; I have seen it happen!

 

[Riverdance]

Also, a horse can get cast against a tree in a 100 acre field; I have seen it happen!

Yup, me too. Crazy horses!!