What defines a good/quality miniature horse

[speckles]

Hi all. I have read with interest all of your different threads re. "where to from here" and those regarding breeding programs in the States, low prices for minis etc. I say I have read them with interest because I can see similar patterns starting to happen here in New Zealand.

Sitting among my miniatures today, all of whom I love, I got to thinking - What does make a good miniature horse, in other people's opinions. When buying a horse, what rates most highly. Is it just the conformation of the horse sitting in front of you. Is it the bloodlines of the horse? Is it on the horse's own show record, or the show record of it's parents or progeny????? How much does the stud the horse comes from count? Or is it a combination of all of the above. Would you buy a miniature from less known or less proven/less shown bloodlines, if the conformation of the individual horse stacked up?

A few of you mentioned about breeding less and only breeding quality. I just wonder what that really means.

Your ideas would be appreciated. Guess I am just having a major think about where my breeding program is heading and where the Miniature horse worlds in New Zealand and America are heading.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Kind regards,

Sandra Spekreijse

Serenity Park Miniatures

Canterbury

New Zealand.

 

[nootka]

For a breeding horse, I do want to see the parents (sire and dam) if at all possible, and I also want to see siblings, either full or half, just to help get an idea of what's going on genetically.

I would buy a lesser-known horse from lesser-known bloodlines if he or she really wowed me.

A quality horse is one that is conformationally sound, mentally sound and is beautiful to look at on top of that. Color to me is secondary (the majority of my tiny herd are red or black), it is conformation first of all as in how it relates to soundness. I absolutely won't play around with off bites or dwarf traits or bad legs.

The stallion that a horse is by is only of note to me as in his conformational soundness as well as overall soundness (i.e. both testicles down). If he's famous, it's nice, but it's not necessary for me to look at a purchase prospect.

I appreciate show histories, but showing can be such a toss-up and edited to slant any way you like (such as saying "top placings" when that could mean 3rd out of a class of 4 or 5).

Mostly, I look at the horse, his or her direct parents, full siblings if available, and also how the horse is cared for in its young life. I really don't want to buy a horse from a place that gives little care or attention (i.e., never wormed, hooves trimmed rarely if at all, etc. etc.).

Liz M.

 

[Jill]

I think one of the best ways for a person to answer that question, is to look at the farms that are producing the foals and horses you like. Look at their breeding stock, their current foals, and their matured home-bred horses. That can help you figure out what it takes to get what you want to see in your own horses.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

That is a interesting question. I am sure most people are sure their horses are amazing as is there program and most will justify it

For me it is more then pedigree I have seen plenty of horses with "names" in there pedigree that are not much to look at. The advantage is consistency in a pedigree however that comes with both good and bad there are some very famous ones that I already know usually mean a very laid back personality(a good thing) easy going, kind however along with that comes a cresty thick neck and what I consider a weak hind end. So alot depends on what you are buying the horse with and what you intend to cross it with and do with it.

Every farm has culls and a good breeder and something I look for in a seller is one who admits the horses faults - one who can say this horse may have won this or that but... or the sire won this or that but..

Nothing is more of a turn off to me then one who cant or wont admit flaws in there own herd. Every herd has them

Seeing siblings can help alot although there are some who are very different so if they don't look simular now I doubt they will later on.

Bottom line is when I look at a farm and a huge percentage of there foals and mature horses make me so wow.. when I know top trainers and other top farms are wanting to get there hands on these foals to show them that is another good sign for me

But even then it is so subjective what one sees as an amazing horse another might see as a pet quality animal

 

[MountainMeadows]

For me one of the most important things that I not only strive for, but also look for before buying is CONSISTENCY. I know that for me, I am striving for a consistent look, whether it be from my stallion Baylee or Prince, from any of the mares - it is a "Mountain Meadows Look" that I am hoping to achieve. Definately not an easy goal since I have set the bar pretty high, but one that I will continue to work on (just hoping that the look I like is one that others will also!)

 

[Buckskin gal]

Just wondering, do you think it takes some linebreeding to produce that consistency? Do you find your stallions are pretty good at producing consistency? Of course I love Prince and would like to see him cloned!

: Mary

For me one of the most important things that I not only strive for, but also look for before buying is CONSISTENCY. I know that for me, I am striving for a consistent look, whether it be from my stallion Baylee or Prince, from any of the mares - it is a "Mountain Meadows Look" that I am hoping to achieve. Definately not an easy goal since I have set the bar pretty high, but one that I will continue to work on (just hoping that the look I like is one that others will also!)

 

[MountainMeadows]

Hi Mary,

Interesting question - and one that I thought about long and hard before making the choices that I made. I had at one time thought that thru linebreeding that I would get the look that I was striving for -- however, when line breeding you not only lock in the good points, but also the bad --- so for me, I made the choice to breed for "like types", ie phenotypes vs genotypes. By breeding this way it is easier for me to knock out the undesirable traits quicker and with more consistency than if I was linebreeding - it seems to me that it is really hard to kick out some of the faults that are line-bred in -- JMO

I feel like the "style" of my stallions is pretty consistent, Baylee, Prince and also my previous stallion Tymer all have a similar style to them, long legs, trim barrel, upright & clean, long, hooky necks. The mares that I have retained for my breeding program (lots of Tymer daughters and now Baylee daughters) also have these traits - so I am hoping that by breeding them back & forth & blending in Prince that I will eventually create "the look" that I am striving for. That said, I still feel like I could use a little tweeking here and there and am on the prowl for a stallion and/or mares that will fill the void - it is a never ending process!

Stacy

 

[wiccanz]

Good questions Sandra, especially in a country as small as ours.

As far as I'm concerned, 90-95% of the stallions here should be gelded. They are NOT breeding quality, but because we live in such a small place, the attitude of many people seems to be "Oh well, let's just see if he can miraculously produce a Nationals winner out of this old mare here".

Or they think "Wow! That's an unusual colour. Better breed from him/her!"

Sometimes I wish all minis were grey, then we would look at the horse!

We copped a fair bit of flack over gelding our stallion, many people couldn't believe we had done it. But then none of those people had just been up to the World Show and saw what top quality miniatures are supposed to look like. And many people here wouldn't go even if given the opportunity, because that would mean they would have to admit their own stock was of poor quality.

Those same people breed the same tired old mares to the same poor quality stallions, year after year, and produce more poor quality foals, which end up on Trade Me (NZ's version of Ebay) for a few hundred dollars, often still entire!! Makes me very angry and very sad.

So what makes for a good breeding programme?? Firstly, being able to recognise exactly what constitutes good conformation! Many folks seem completely unaware what that is. Secondly, honesty. And then, once you think you've found your breeding stock, being able to match them up to compliment each other. By that I mean, admit your mares are not perfect, then set about finding a stallion who has qualities that compliment her.

That is what we have done here, so far with good success (it's very early days yet).

This is the guy we gelded, many of you on this forum have seen him before. Some even PM'd me to ask why he'd been gelded.

: Let's jus say, if he had an inch more to those legs, things may have been different! Funny thing is, all the foals he did leave us have a heap more leg than him! Go figure! :bgrin

 

[Fantasia]

The stallion issue seems to be more than just NZ wide, some of what I saw o/seas as stallions would make you cringe... The excuse for not gelding????? Can't get a decent price for them as a gelding!

I know all about that - I had two quality geldings, one a supreme the other full brother who I just couldn't seem to sell as there were too many $500 colts on Trade Me. :new_shocked: Simply could not believe the amount of people who wanted a (in my mind) colt who was gelding material as a breeding colt! In the end I gelded him before re-advertising him. Lady who bought him claims he's better than the colt she bought...hello people..... LOOK at these colts, they ain't stallion material!!!!

Both these boys have gone to fantastic show homes so I think it's VERY important that I'm upfront about the fact they are geldings and not "colt worthy", hey, it's MY stud Prefix out there in that ring...

Personally, I run a very small herd (6) and consistantly look at what I'm producing. I'm very proud to say I have 3 Multi Supreme Champions on my property, a producer of Supreme Champions and two "in waiting" to hit the ring. (One of which is the current Foal of the Year NZMHA). :bgrin

If the foal drop this year from my new boy isn't up to scratch - out with the emasculators!!!

Yes, bloodlines count but we all know breeding a Nat Champ to a Nat Champ ain't always gonna produce. Also the obsession with AMHA regd horses - we all know a registry doesn't produce the horses so WHY are we so hung up on it??? (no offence intented to anyone there!)

So - what do I look for?? First conformation (quality), Movement (ya know I'm a movement freak!),temperament then colour.

Brigid - I commend you on choosing to geld your guy after Stix hit the ground, Tumble out bred himself and good on you for seeing it. Make more with the gelding knife says I!!! (I have already managed to scare the guys on my team by telling them that the men in my life who don't behave lose their balls!!!!)

Yikes - anyone reading this would think I had an obsession with knives really......

Point I'm trying to convey is prople need to be more honest with what they are breeding.

We are a small country and the comments from the American Judges this season was that we are on the right track but there is still a big gap to fill

 

[MyBarakah]

HI! Good post!

Well..... FOr me...... (big or small horses)...... To me...... the first thing is...... that horse has to grab my attention...... Name's on papers and pedigree doesn't mean nothing to me (yet)....... the horse "first" has to get my attention in looks! It has to "WOW" me........ THEN....... I look at horses bloodlines, parents who owns the horse, price....... ALL that...... And I only am interested in broodmares or young horses that will later be producers......... but like to show them first.......so they have to beable to place EXTREMLY well (above average) in the show pen....... Not because I want to win (well... yes..... I like to place).....but it's not about the winning...... I want that horse to be THAT good of quality! And then I can ONLY hope that "some day" that filly or colt will beable to produce that high quality.... I know you don't always raise champions......exspecially in the minis........ but to better the bred..... you have to aim high and not settle for "Ok"........ I also (if there are any)...... I want to see that horses siblings..... I want to know his parents have shown and done well along with his full or 1/2 siblings....... ( I have high standards)..... but I've seen what the market is today..... and there's NO ROOM anymore for the "ok" or average minis anymore....

SO...... that's what I look for!

:

 

[Joanne]

It is always wonderful if I know the horses in the pedigree and respect the farms they came from; however, the horse that I am looking at is the selling point for me.

I do wish I could say color does not matter, but as a breeder of pintos it is of importance. Though I need great solid horses as well as pintos in my breeding program. I love walking through my herd and enjoying the way the horses look. Looking at them when they are born and seeing what it is I was trying to achieve. The goal being met. It is amazing how many mother and daughter teams I have kept for breeding.

I look for serious breeders that are keeping back their own stock, especially the colts, as a sign that they are happy with their breeding program.

After over 14 years breeding I can now say I have finally reach a consistency in my breeding program where the horses have achieved the elegance I was after. I have several unrelated stallions and they are very typey in what they are doing for the mares. I have a good idea how the stallion will effect the mares they are bred to. The color though is a crapshoot!

My passion is breeding. I am delighted that our horses have been shipped worldwide and are in demand. From a breeders standpoint I think the best advise is that you do give your clients as much genetic information as well as an assessment of the horse as you can. I certainly want my clients happy with the horse they buy knowing that that will bring me more clients.