Unnecessary Cruelty

[rubyviewminis]

http://www.thecloudfoundation.org/index.ph.../youtube-videos

There are better ways to manage the mustang herds.

 

[Minimor]

So you keep saying. Please share your views on what these better ways would be.

So far I haven't heard anyone set out what they think should be done instead.

 

[IloveMiniatureshorses]

I already posted something about this.......But yes, like the person said above, state YOUR views on what SHOULD be done.....

Technically, it is not cruel, but it is not a very efficient way of doing things........

 

[IloveMiniatureshorses]

I see that this is your second post about this. DROP IT. The roundup is over. Yeah, people let their emotions get in the way, and I let it get to me, but just think; would you rather have the horses be picked off by predators or pass on during the harsh winters or do you want humans to help control the populations? I have never really sided with the BLM's decisions at all lately or their ways of rounding up the horses (making their feet sore, etc.), using helicopters and "fake" horses or whatnot. I have always believed in the phrase "let nature take it's course", and I think it can go to everything in nature, including mustangs. I did not say this to be mean or rude or anything, but it is a fact of life.....

 

[minimule]

I don't see cruelty. These horses are rounded up and MOST go to good homes where they are well taken care of the rest of their lives. If they were out there shooting them........that would be cruel. Just my opinion.

 

[rubyviewminis]

I don't have to DROP anything. You should study more in school about our freedom of speech in this country, and while your at it, study the definition in rudeness. You are rude. This forum is for people to express opinions or present topics, inform, whatever. I am not going to say what I think the solution is, I am not an expert in these matters. The links I present are to inform, make anyone aware who wishes to read the information. These links present evidence and solutions by experts. The BLM for one should never have started a round-up at a time when the foals were too young to cope with the miles of running and panic at the gathering corrals. Information, you can always *turn the channel*!

 

[GypsyMoonMinis]

I see that this is your second post about this. DROP IT.

That was a little harsh wasn't it? Its not like she's spammed the entire forums, she's simply presenting links to information for others to become informed if they so choose too. Instead she's attacked? quite unfair if you ask me. Flame wars don't help anything. Besides, what better place to share your passion than here? We all love horses here don't we? Should we not then feel that we can share everything, esp here in the 'Back Porch' forums, ment specifically for off topics, some of which might get a little hot. And don't the forum rules also state that if you can't handle it, to move on? There is simply no reason for such attacks. Don't like, the back button isn't far from your mouse cursor....

I might also add, she didn't ask for anyones solutions, so don't beat down for not offering hers.

As to the rest of your post, no its not cruel to leave the horses out there on the range. They are there just like deer and elk and other wildlife, and they go through the same things: harsh winters, predators. that's natural to them, its their way of life and always have been. These horses have been in the wild for centuries. Its when we take these NON-domestic horses and fool ourselves into believing they are our back yard domestics that the cruelty starts. 30,000 horses in holding pens is how 'people manage the populations'. Thats cruel. Did you see the recent images of the old stallion Conquistador? he's 19 and stuck in a holding pen waiting to be adopted. Do you think a 19 yr old stallion is going to adjust to domestic life? What happens when you geld him? Would you watch your own minis/horses have the life and spirit sucked out of them? His spirit is already gone, he sits in the pen depressed and lifeless. Not only emotionally, but physically how is he going to cope? These horses aren't used to sitting in pens and not wearing and chipping thier feet naturally, they aren't used to rich feeds....

Im beginning to think that talking about these horses is just as bad as discussing religion or politics.

 

[shorthorsemom]

rubyview... thanks for posting the link. I found those videos interesting, I never saw any type of roundup before outside of TV movies. One thing that was interesting was how decent those horses looked in weight and their hooves were perfect shape and length of toe vs heel etc.., a testimonial to the natural hoof and how horses in the wild can take decent care of themselves given the right conditions. It was sad to see the sorness of their feet the next day and the lady on the video stated that a different time of year these horses would not have been as sore because they wouldn't have had to travel as far. That stallion is gorgeous.

Don't fry me guys...

Just wanted to point out something I found interesting about the video, I am particularly interested in the natural hoof.

thanks

 

[Minimor]

I might also add, she didn't ask for anyones solutions, so don't beat down for not offering hers.

No, she asked us all to help stop unnecessary cruelty, and stated that what's being done is all wrong--or rather suggested that the current method is all wrong when she said

There are better ways to manage the mustang herds.

Okay, since she said there are better ways to manage the mustang herds, she must know what those ways are. That being the case she should share those better ways. I don't see anything wrong in asking that she share her views on what is a better way!
On this sort of topic it's really difficult to support someone who is merely jumping up and down shouting THIS IS WRONG, STOP IT, THERE'S A BETTER WAY...when many of us don't know what that better way might be. Do you want to stop all future roundups? As has been said, there are problems with that too...at least many of us believe there are problems with that, obviously not all agree. Do you support roundups, but you know of a better, more humane way to run those roundups? Or...???

 

[GypsyMoonMinis]

Minimor, my post was not directed at you. You asked in a kind and mature manner. Instead it was directed at those who outright attacked her, needlessly. Like you said, its hard to know what a good solution would be, and so we need experts willing to work on this issue, but we also need advocates to help spread the word, not necessarily come up with solutions, though they are always welcome. Neither rby or I completely disagree with the roundups per say, but the manner in which they are conducted. Please see my other post in the other thread for a good deal of information (with source links) about why its so important that we take a stand. One person can yell to get attention, but then it takes a team to move the mountain. rbyview was in no way rude or blatant about her post, she was simply passing on information and nothing more.

 

[Minimor]

I knew the quote you used wasn't from my post, but since I was the first one that posed the question I wasn't sure--so wanted to clarify why I'd asked!

You know, I don't really know what I'd have to suggest about the whole thing. I don't like it that the roundups are causing the horses to run for miles--but then again that's the sort of thing that happened many years ago, when they'd set up a relay with fresh horses/riders and run the wild ones until they couldn't run any more, then they'd catch them--so over the years I can't say that has changed for the worse. I don't like the idea of no roundups--because I don't want to think of them being overpopulated and dying of starvation...and at least they no longer chase them with jeeps & throw ropes on them & let them drag tires to wear them out faster...and scare them half to death in the process...at least I hope they don't do that now, my old computer doesn't allow me to watch videos. And I sure don't like the way the mustangs in Alberta are being shot by some unknown person(s)...so I sure don't have any answers about what is better!

 

[Katiean]

I don't have any solution and the wild horses I have seen lately (in the wild) are of good flesh and are really beautiful. It breaks my hart every time I drive past the holding facilltiy in Palomino Valley. Those horses are in large dry pens with a couple of feeders out there. No wind break (natural or man made) and no sun/rain/snow shelter. Think of a cattle feed lot but not as crowded. They do have plenty of room to run or frolic if they want. I have never seen them do it. I can't do anything to help. I don't have the funds or room for even one horse. The condition I have been seeing them in while in the wild I think they should leave them alone for now and quit trying to take the open range to feed cattle.

 

[miniwhinny]

Okay, I'm a little more knowledgeable than most because...I live in a state with wild horse herds..I've adopted wild horses and I've owned and studied in DETAIL the 3 Spanish herds..Pryor, Sulphur and Kiger. I've been in the Herd Management Area's and the corals too.

The round up process is heartbreaking. It is plain and simple. BUT unless you want 10000000 horses grazing land able to support 50 then they are necessary. Yes horses get killed, mamed and the BLM corals are knee deep in aborted fetuses in the month after the round up but how else do you remove horses? You can't drop nets on them. If you've never been to the wild horse herds then you won't realize that wild is WILD..you can't get within 1/4 mile of most without them fleeing (and that's if you hide in a bush and DONT move)....they don't come to a bucket of grain. They DO NOT run in herds of hundreds as so often shown in movies...there is no "man from snowy river" herd of 200. These horses roam in family bands of 4-12 so each management area could have 30,000 acres with 20 bands of 6 horses all in their own place.

Okay BLM corals...apart from the "tax dollars pay" argument - what the heck is wrong with them...gee...unless you've seen these corals it's unfair to comment. I've seen them, many times. These horses live BETTER than most domestic horses. The corals in Oregon are HUGE...so big you DRIVE round not walk. The horses are seperated by pen into mares, stallions, mares with foals, and young. No young mare can be bred because the stallions are seperated. These horses have AWESOME vet care, fresh clean water and top notch hay ( I've seen it and believe me...I'd be the first to complain if they were abused) They run in large bands in HUGE pens larger than 99% of domestic horses ever get to play in. SO what's the problem? Honestly...I'm SUCH a horse lover and softie but these horses in the BLM adoption centers are spoiled rotton lol.

I've never gone to the corals and thought "oh poor horses, they should be free" These horses although removed from the wild are as well cared for as ANY domestic horse (and with government money...I'd say better) So if your argument is tax payers are paying for these horses to live the life of riley...well then you have an argument. But if it's oh poor horses shouldn't be there...well go see for yourselves before you complain.

The HMA's are fenced limited areas. They can only support a certain amount of livestock so round ups or birth control MUST be done. Those advocating just leaving them to nature IMHO IS abuse plain and simple....let your herd of precious mini's out into their meadow and let them graze it to nothing...breed freely for years and then have no way to leave that area when the food runs out.

JMO

 

[Katiean]

I have seen the BLM corals in Nevada. I live not more than 10 miles from them. The pens here have NO shelter (natural or man made). Yes they have plenty to eat. But for these horses they do not use top quality hay because they can't handle it when they first bring them in. My problem is the total lack of shelter/wind breaks. Also, the pens here are not as large as miniwhinny discribes. I know the round ups have to be done. But some of the horses here are not all that WILD. There are housing developments that make it clear you are not to bother the horses. They graze on peoples front lawns. But just as the deer that people feed they become desensitized. My mother has set many posts (she does security) where the wild horses will come very close to humans. When I went out to buy my beet pulp last month at the Lokcwood exit off of I-80 we saw 5 or 6 little bands of wild horses near the interstate as we take more and more of their habitat what are they supposed to do? Also,with the economy as bad as it is people were turning their horses out hoping they would become part of a wild herd. There is now a fine of $1,000 for doing that because they (the domestic horses) have no instincts to be wild and fall pray to the preditors (sp) or die of dehydration because domestic horses can not "FIND" water with there instincts. Like I said, it is hard to find answers in today's world that has no use for the wild horses. It takes money and I think we are all on the short end of that right now. But maybe someone that has the funds can help some of these horses. Here is something we discussed (not sure who to talk to. What if they pulled in a large number of studs and gelded them and returned them to their herds? It would cut down on the number of foals being born.

 

[miniwhinny]

What if they pulled in a large number of studs and gelded them and returned them to their herds? It would cut down on the number of foals being born.

I'd heard Nevada's program wasn't as good as Oregons...too bad. As for gelding and returning...IMO that's a death sentence the second a ungelded stud decided to move in a claim the herd. The poor gelding wouldn't stand a chance. Plus you're facing genetic bottlenecks if you cut down the gene pool too much. There is no easy solution, I'm sure the BLM has already given every option a chance.

I'm not a fan of the BLM or round up process at all but until there are no longer HMA's and the horses have free access to the entire "Wild West" once again then just like in your paddock - management must be done to keep the herds and herd areas healthy.

And back to the OP of Cloud...heheheh here's a different opinion...he was forced into fame when he became the subject of the films but IMO HE should be removed and adopted out because he's not of good enough type to keep in a phenotypically Spanish herd

 

[txminipinto]

I just watched the videos and honestly I don't see anything wrong. Yes, after galloping over that terrain its expected for the horses to be lame. But when looking at the video of these mustangs you don't see the panic that you would see in a horse that's never been corralled. A panicked horse would attempt to jump the corrals and would bolt wildly and without regard to destination as long as it was away. These horses galloping in under the direction of a helicopter are not panicked. They know where they are going. They may not like it, but they've done it before. In fact, they all seemed very calm to me. Not at all what I would expect from a wild horse under cruel conditions. Sure, maybe rounding up when there are young foals on the ground isn't the best time and perhaps in the winter would be better. But nothing here upsets me. It has to be done they just need to do it at a better time.

 

[HGFarm]

I can't see the videos from work here, but my X husband worked on a round up for wild burros here years ago. They were herded with helicopters, and the riders waited in a canyon on the ground to finish driving them into a large holding pen. They were not kept there long... they were loaded on trailers and hauled to where ever they were going to keep them to auction.

They were treated humanely and he did not report even one being injured...

As the helicopters herded them, if some dropped out or couldnt keep up, they were not harassed, they were allowed to drop out.

The reason they are probably in good shape in the pics is because they are probably have been on good feed for a while, obviously not coming out of a harsh winter, etc.... and the ones that are sickly or that have problems have either died off, or are unable to keep up with herd anyway, so are not going to be there.

I would rather see them rounded up than to know they are starving, diseased or other problems going on with them. I can't stand to know that anything has long term suffering and dies a lonely death or pulled down by predators.

 

[osu_barrelracer]

I guess you can view it as a necessary evil. Just like with any other wildlife, if we don't manage them, bigger issues arise. Hunting helps keep deer and elk populations down. Would you rather have hundreds of incidents of people dieing from car collisions with wild horses because we become so overrun with them?

Personally I think it would do a lot of good to round them up and have a big ol' mass gelding.

Yes they were here before us. Yes we are 'intruding on their home'. Yes they are a part of history. BUT. . . unless you are willing to give up your home and your farm so they can have their land back, and your money to make sure they don't all starve to death because they are overpopulated. . . . Just something to think about.

 

[GypsyMoonMinis]

I seriously think everyone here is missing the point.

It is not the round ups that are the issue. As everyone has said, it is necessary to cull the herds and maintain a healthy population according to what land they are given. Please read the below reposting that I made in another thread, it details alot of the issues with this particular round up in the Pryors. And as an update: All the horses that were kept for adoption have been adopted out to good homes, some mustang advocate groups have adopted whole families, including the old horses who rightly aren't fit for a normal adoption. So a small victory there.

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I too am an avid supporter of wild horses. Not just because im a horse lover, not just because they are 'wild and free', and not just because they are a part of our American heritage (feral animals or not), no, im a supporter because of the diverse, unique and rare bloodlines that flows through these herds. Unfortunately a lot of herds are no longer as pure as they once were, and this is what makes the Pryor horses so so special. The herd was already small, only 190 horses. I've not seen thier range land myself, (though I only live 3 hours away, been wanting to take the kids down), nor am I educated enough to know what I see, but from what I've read from both sides of the coin, the higher mountain ranges are not quite as healthy as they would like, but they aren't suffering. not meaning there isn't enough vegetation, but that there is too much of the wrong kind of vegetation. That being said, looking at the horses that were brought down in the gather, they were all in excellent body condition. IF the forage was truly an issue, a majority of those horses would have come in from the gather in poor condition, regardless of the season. We are all horsemen and woman here, and we have all seen horses on poor diets and how quickly they deteriorate and how hard they can be to maintain.

The fact is, the BLM was using this as an excuse to go in and take from a herd that quite frankly needs to be left alone. Currently there are over 30,000 horses in holding facilities across the country, most of which are healthy animals under the age of 6. Horse meat is a billion dollar a year industry. There aren't currently enough homes for all these horses and the Pryor herd isn't the only one that is being torn apart. There are other herds in dire straights that NEED intervention and yet they come here? Why? Forage? my butt... I can only imagine what kind of bullcrap they will start spouting so that they can access highly profitable resource. Here is an intersting fact: Wild horses account for less than 0.5% of large grazing animals on public lands. hmmm

The Pryor mountain horse range is over 38,000 acres. They're trying to tell us that can't support 190 horses? And outside of that is Custer National Forest. Please explain to me why their range couldn't be expanded? Some of the harems run on National Forest anyways. The BLM says because the law doesn't permit it. An act that was written in 1971 (http://www.wildhorsepreservation.com/resources/1971_act.html), whose last revision was in 1978. 31 years ago. I think its time that a group of experts OUTSIDE of the BLM and any other corrupt government agency with an ulterior motive comes together and revises the act. Times are different and things change and our horses are in just as much peril as then.

I do like some of the BLM ideas for maintaining the range, such as forcing the horses to spread for water and using controlled burns to take out some of the pines. But I think these things need to be done FIRST before they go in rip roaring and tearing the herd up like they did. And they do all the herd gathers the same way. except this one got alot more press that I think they expected and so not everything they planned was put into action. Instead of the intended 75 taken out, only 53 were. INstead of the entire 190 brought in, only 146 were, instead of selling the old horses, they are going to adopt them (or so the latest report reads, lets hope there aren't any surprises on the 26th). And the horses over 5 need to be re-released, they are not suitable for adoption and dont deserve a life in a holding pen.... I digress...more about this gather in specific later...

Which brings me to my next point. Why is it such a big deal? Why isn't it ok to take the 53 horses from the herd? Two words: Genetic Diversity. Remember what I said earlier about how special the Pryor horses were? Its because they have unique and rare genetics, not as pure as it once was, but unique and special all the same. (See: http://www.pryormustangs.org/about_horses.shtml,

Texas A&M Professor Gus Cothran: "...Based on his DNA analysis, Dr. Cothran now believes that the minimum wild horse and burro herd size is 150-200 animals. Within a herd this large, about 100 animals will be of breeding age. Of those 100, approximately 50 horses would comprise the genetic effective population size. These are the animals actually contributing their genes to the next generation. Dr. Cothran has stated that 50 is a minimum number. A higher number would decrease the chances for inbreeding..." (http://www.mustangfoundation.org/issues/genetic-diversity-viability/gentetic-diversity-viability.htm)

That aside, the whole gather of the Pryor horses was handled terribly. Horses were crawling through chutes, tying up, coming in and leaving lame. The "humane observer', which is supposed to be in the back at all times to make sure things are done humanely was even barred from entrance at one point. Apparently to protect the person, but this doesn't shed a very pretty light on thier workings. I was happy to hear however that they did finally relent and set up more pens to ensure the harems were kept together.

In my diggings I found out that the Cattoor Wild Horse Roundup Company was used for the round up. In one news article the owner was quoted as saying: "...Cattoor said there may be little demand for the wild horses offered for adoption, which are sold for $125. "You can buy a papered colt for under $200," he said. "Why would anyone want to buy a wild one?" Cattoor started his business in 1971. His main client is the BLM. According to federal records, his company earned more than $12 million between 2000 and 2007..." http://www.missoulian.com/news/state-and-r...1cc4c03286.html

Additionally:

"'...In 1992, Cattoor was indicted by a federal grand jury for hunting wild horses, aiding and abetting. Cattoor rounded up federally protected American mustangs, corralled them into pens and loaded them into trucks bound for a Texas slaughterhouse. He pled guilty to those charges. "Since that time we suspect that he has received at least $20,000,000," says wild horse advocate, Julianne French. "And we know for sure, from the Federal Register website, that Cattoor has earned over $12,000,000 in the past nine years alone."

While Cattoor is currently under investigation by the Department of Interior Inspector General for procurement fraud, BLM chooses to continue their relationship with the Cattoor Livestock Roundup Company.

"Generally, an indictment would eliminate a contractor from consideration," added French. "However, Mr. Cattoor has been rewarded and made a millionaire many times over by the taxpayer-funded BLM-despite the public outrage."

"If I ever had a felony charge, even if I had been exonerated, I'm not supposed to get a federal contract" stated Howard Boggess, Crow Elder and Historian. "Why are they above the law?"..."'http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=75108

In the end, no one said that the horses shouldn't be managed, but they need to be protected and managed a heck of a lot better than the BLM is doing now. Is it going to take the extinction of our wild horses and burros to wake people up? Seems to be the way of things, sadly. Thank you rbyviewminis for sharing this with us, let us hope that others are more open minded and willing to research before passing any final judgments.

Photos:

Sept 1, 2009: Shaman, 21 yr old stallion. He died shortly after the round up, though I dont believe he himself was gathered. Pam Nicholaus photography. These horses look great

http://nickolesphotography.wordpress.com/2...ryor-mountains/

Videos:

Crow Elder speaks about the horses:


Lame babies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKz1XmTT-R8...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eH6g4x4CKs...feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMCHq2g7uho...feature=channel

on the case of lameness, though anyone who knows anything about horses understands the potential consequences of any lameness: http://rtfitch.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/th...0%99s-not-lame/

Further reading if anyone is so inclined. My motto is: Knowledge is Power

http://www.mustangfoundation.org/issues/ge...y-viability.htm

http://www.pryormustangs.org/mustang_blog.shtml

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2009/9/prweb2840154.htm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...TVmustangs.html

http://en.wordpress.com/tag/pryor-mountains/

http://special.equisearch.com/blog/horsehe...drama-over.html