So tired of all the "Bid Dog" and "Little Dog" b.s.

[Cathy_H]

I guess Lee & I are " big little dogs"................... Since 1986 we have strived for "Quality before quanity" breeding 2-4 foals a year.............................. This "Little dog versus big dog" is as open to interpretation as politics or anything else........... If you go by Jean's definition then I feel Lee and I are big dogs but if you go by KayKay's definition then we are little dogs........................... Kaykay's interpretation is the one that I have heard used most by "Big dog versus little dog".............................. I have seen some horses sold from big dog breeders for a WHOLE lot more money but not a whole lot more quality ( sometimes) than what could have been purchased from a little dog breeder that has the same bloodlines & quality.......................... I do agree that research & homework needs to be done .................. As far as breeding "quality only" horses this was NOT the way of some of the original miniature horse breeders & it will not be the way of some of today's breeders. Back when horses sold for high dollars anything that could produce was bred & some of the breeders are still out there & yes they know who they are & YES they are still doing it...... Now that prices are down which also has hurt the farms that sell high dollar horses the breeders that breed less than what they approve of is a no no..... Just because poor quality could be sold for high dollars back then, did that make it right then but not now with lower prices??? .......................... So there is no misinterpretation I want it to be known that I also feel quality should come before quanity. I also know you don't have to go to the "big dog" to get it.

 

[Jean_B]

Jean

.... here is what i meant:

Big dog definition

Has alot of money behind them to promote horses to the fullest and hire the best trainers

Has a lot of political influence in either or both registries

Has the ability to travel etc without fear of losing their job or worrying about how to pay the electric bill LOL

Little Dog

Works as hard as a big dog and has nice horses but doesnt have the thousands to promote a horse or hire the best trainers

Cant travel much due to money and family constraints

Has no political influence in either registry

I am without a doubt a little dog. And so what. Its just a fact of life. Doesnt mean I dont have nice horses. I do show mine as much as i can financially and they have all done very well so I guess I did something right. I have spent from 500.00-6500.00 on horses. So I do think its a little de meaning to suggest that the little people dont buy quality horses.

Good grief did you ever mis-read my post !!! (and perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought you DID have your horse out with a trainer?!?)

First and foremost ANYONE can have TONS of influence on what happens in this industry WITHOUT EVER GOING TO A CONVENTION. For pete's sake, get off that kick. Do you (and I do NOT mean just you, Kay...I mean EVERYONE who has ever complained about the "us versus them" crap) have a finger? Pick up the phone and dial. Obviously you (again, the collective "you" because anyone reading this has a computer) have a computer so type a letter or send an email. Quit whining and contact your directors and others in a position of influence or who you know will be going to the conventions and let your opinion be known.

And don't just whine about a PERCEIVED problem. Have a recommended solution. Because without a recommended solution, you will NOT be listened to. Remember when your kids were little?? And they were whining about a perceived injustice?? Did you listen? Or did you tell them to take a time-out or go to their room until they could face the issue with reason?

And again, you mis-read my post about big/little and good/poor quality !! Read it again. I said that ANYONE can buy a quality horse if they take the time to do their homework and make sure their hard-earned $$$ are going for horses that will have a POSITIVE IMPACT ON THE FUTURE OF THE BREED! Yes, ANYONE!! Even if they have a grand total of 2 horses, in my view if they are doing it with intelligent planning, they CAN be a big dog. And you don't need to be able to hire a trainer to be one either. That's just horse puckey.

And if you don't join...you have NO right to complain. Become a member and become part of the solution.

 

[PaintedPromiseRanch]

I asked my herd and after a discussion and vote by hoof, they say we're one of the "big dogs." But their definition of that is a farm that goes above and beyond in caring for horses so if/when any are sold, buyers never have to be wary. It had more to do with love and trust than money or ribbons. So, now you've heard it--straight from the horses' mouths.

:

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

 

[White Socks Miniature]

Alright, so I might get into trouble for saying this, but it is directed at NO ONE so please dont take this personally. Here it goes...

I guess I dont understand why anyone is arguing about this?... I mean theres ethical vs. unethical, ethical being breeding horses in a clean, well managed environment, with horses that are conformationally correct, hoping to get healthy babies, for show, companionship, breeding ect. and having a knowledgable person or team doing so or having someone who is more knowledable helping if your a newbie. Where as unethical would be someone breeding purely for money and / or does not care about equine well fare.

Even someone who has pedigree beautifully bred horses, that are top of the line, can be unethical in thier breeding. where as someone who maybe doesnt have the TOP of the line horses can be very ethical.

even with this some people may have a different idea of what is ethical and what is not.

There are many different paths to take, and maybe the " big dog" path and the "little dog" path can lead to the very same place... maybe one just takes a longer time, but altimately both parties reach thier ultimate goal, to be the best they can be.

So why is everyone arguing? Why not use this time and energy on your breeding program? I mean dont get me wrong a good debate is great, but this one just seems a bit silly to be arguing over, I dont think anyone is being unethical in thier breeding practices that I know of, so I dont see what the issue is?

 

[Buckskin gal]

One can see even by this thread that there always seems to be the division of one thing or another. And when there is nothing else to complain about, someone will start a thread complaining about the complainers....kinda ironic isn't it? Maybe it is just that every one would like to be heard and we need to try harder to understand that rather than put any one down. One thing about it, if we don't want to hear what another has to say all we have to do is not read the post! So simple.

: Another thing about it, if we all thought alike there wouldn't be any thinking going on

: I do believe a good discussion on things that are important are always needed so we can see all sides. I am tired and when I am tired I know it is time to get some rest. JMHO Mary

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

That is direct Jean and I can't disagree with you!

Unfortunately there is that learning curve when people 'get into minis'. It's educating the eye on horse conformation, learning about showing, the bloodlines, lots of education - most of us (myself included), start with pets, and then must face the hard decision that cute and sweet isn't necessarily the only qualities that are important. I do think temperament is important, but not the whole package!

As for being a Big of Little canine - I hate those terms - they divide and categorize us all, instead of uniting everyone in our common goal the improvement and success of the American Miniature Horse.

To say your a 'small farm' like it's better or worse is crap. To say they're a 'big farm' like it's a good or bad thing is just as bad and vice versa! If someone produces 20 really nice foals or 2 really crappy foals - which is better? If you cheat, lie or are dishonest it doesn't matter if your selling for $200 or $20,000, you're still disreputable, and unethical. Cream rises to the top.

Price shouldn't be the main factor, and yes there are lots of horses out there with high tags that aren't great, and wonderful finds that are fabulous. It's really about educating yourself - a life long trip, not something you can ever take for granted or think you know it all!

I will say in response to one of the post here - raising minis for profit isn't necessarily a bad thing! I always read that - they're just in this to make money! I don't think any of us go into breeding with the goal of bankruptcy! My goal is to always finish in the black, and I'm thrilled to make money at selling minis, but I won't sacrifice what I consider appropriate care to make money, nor will I sell to someone just to sell a horse. If they were cars or bottles or something not alive that would be different.

Anyway, off the soapbox!

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

I said that ANYONE can buy a quality horse if they take the time to do their homework and make sure their hard-earned $$$ are going for horses that will have a POSITIVE IMPACT ON THE FUTURE OF THE BREED! Yes, ANYONE!!

Please tell me who has the right to define 'quality'? Everyone's opinion of quality is different. And what would you consider a 'positive impact' on the breed? Because obviously us 'small dogs' breeding conformationally correct horses with good dispositions are not doing something right to suit the big dogs or we wouldn't be having this dicussion....

 

[Marty]

I might have some serious nice stock in my barn that I am very proud and excited to have, but I'm always going to be a little dog.

I don't/cannot get them out to a show, and I definately am not politicing, and more than anything, I'm a real good hard worker with them too.

Can I just be a middle size puppy ???

 

[kaykay]

Jean

I do respect your opinion and usually im in full agreement with most of your posts

Since I was one of the people who used the big and little dog analogy in the iamha post I felt a need to define what I MEANT. So I gave my definition of it, which is obviously a lot different then your definition.

Because my daughter became ill and i was losing valuable time i sent black to laura tennill for 30 days and paid her to take him to nationals. (after showing him all season locally myself) This was the first time in 6 years i made it to nationals with one horse. That also the first time i have ever paid a trainer. Lucky for me laura was willing to work with me on payment so i was able to do it. but it was very hard. I had to save and scrape and do without so i could get ONE horse to a national show. NOw im NOT whining just explaining since you asked.

That is a lot different then the ones who send their horses out all season with a trainer. And im not saying theres anything wrong with it! just saying most of us little people cant do it.

Like many people I had to decide wether to go to convention or take one horse to a national show. I picked the national show.

as relic posted it takes both little and big dogs as they each have their place.

I do try to be involved in my registries and do my part to help. Mostly amhr/aspc because that is the registry that has shows in my area. and i have been in contact with my amha director. so no i am not one that just complains and does nothing.

also in order to make changes you really do need to attend convention. you can submit a rule change and not go but if there is even one question and you arent there to answer it then your rule change is dumped.

 

[HaazeMinis]

That is direct Jean and I can't disagree with you!

Unfortunately there is that learning curve when people 'get into minis'. It's educating the eye on horse conformation, learning about showing, the bloodlines, lots of education - most of us (myself included), start with pets, and then must face the hard decision that cute and sweet isn't necessarily the only qualities that are important. I do think temperament is important, but not the whole package!

As for being a Big of Little canine - I hate those terms - they divide and categorize us all, instead of uniting everyone in our common goal the improvement and success of the American Miniature Horse.

To say your a 'small farm' like it's better or worse is crap. To say they're a 'big farm' like it's a good or bad thing is just as bad and vice versa! If someone produces 20 really nice foals or 2 really crappy foals - which is better? If you cheat, lie or are dishonest it doesn't matter if your selling for $200 or $20,000, you're still disreputable, and unethical. Cream rises to the top.

Price shouldn't be the main factor, and yes there are lots of horses out there with high tags that aren't great, and wonderful finds that are fabulous. It's really about educating yourself - a life long trip, not something you can ever take for granted or think you know it all!

I will say in response to one of the post here - raising minis for profit isn't necessarily a bad thing! I always read that - they're just in this to make money! I don't think any of us go into breeding with the goal of bankruptcy! My goal is to always finish in the black, and I'm thrilled to make money at selling minis, but I won't sacrifice what I consider appropriate care to make money, nor will I sell to someone just to sell a horse. If they were cars or bottles or something not alive that would be different.

Anyway, off the soapbox!

VERY WELL SAID MICHELLE!!

I could not have said it better myself!

:

I totally agree that most all of us here started with "PETS" and those of us INCLUDING myself HAVE AND WILL be CONTINUING to IMPROVE my herd, but the whole process of getting where you would like to be takes TIME AS WELL AS MONEY so its one step at a time here and SOME DAY I hope we will eventually be where I would like to be.

:

Kay Kays post was very well put too and I agree with her "DEFFINITION" regarding Big & Little.

Oh and YES I am a member of BOTH REGISTRIES!

Jeri

 

[miniwhinny]

HA ha ha ha I have no idea what I am chuckle...certainly not a big dog...certainly not a little dog, perhaps I'm a hamster

: :bgrin

I have two of the finest bred horses you can find anywhere. I expect their foal with their combined conformation, disposition and bloodlines to be breathtaking ( I've had horses for 43 years..I know a good horse) When I bought them I had the incredible good fortune to live near one of the countries top breeders.

However, when I purchased them I really did want to show but sometimes things in life don't work out that way. After watching my father turn into a skeleton with cancer I've realized how important every second of life is and really questioned what I want from my life. Right now I have my horses because I'm addicted to them and mini's are so much easier to have as you age. They are awesome animals and I have 3 people already wanting their baby (which I more than likely will keep myself) "It" will be an asset to the breed. But I may not be...I have a 16 1/2 year old son, in just 1 1/2 years I'm going to loose him to college and then medical school (he's planning on being a surgeon) Just a year or so left...sigh.

So, here I am. I don't show. I just have my 2 horses. I travel a lot with my family in our 5th wheel. Next to my family, my horses are my pride and joy, but that's where they are in my life. Very important but not all consuming. Above all I'm a wife (to a non horsey hub), a mom and a daughter...oh and perhaps a little hamster too

: :bgrin

:

 

[MyBarakah]

:aktion033: Hi!

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!

Well..... My idea of the "Big dogs" verses the "Little Dogs" or "Pee-Ons" ......... to me (in my eyes) is more in the showing scene...... I want/plan to be a big dog or "top" dog one of these days!!

And where I only have 5 acres...... and I work full time, raise 2 young kids on my own.... having a bunch of minis......... YUCK! That would be TOOOOO much work for me!!! Picking up all the poop! Wow! Along with all the cost to vaccinated all these guys "If" I had a bunch........... lol! ha!

To me though...... actually..... hearing someone reffere to a "big dog" in the minis is someone that has done extremly well, where you hear thier name all over, like Mike Rosauer, Alliance or Scott Creek Miniatures!! Those are the "big dogs" to me!!! :worshippy: Those are who I think are the "big/top dogs!"....... And that's what I want!! Or would like to work up too! Every new mini I get has to be better (or I hope) than what I had or have.....

And to me...... It's NOT about the quanity! All is see when I see quanity...... is "WORK"...... Because ALL of mine have thier own pen/stall and I am religous on picking thier stalls/pens daily and everyone has thier own feed regimine.......... and wound NOT have it any other way.

I have (or soon to have 4 mares)... But have decided to ONLY breed 2 mares a year and give the other 2 off no matter HOW nice of babies they produce...... having 2 babies (right now) for me is pleanty to take on besides having 3 or 4 others to be showing and fitting for halter!!

But I think allot of it is how people have grown up and thier goals in life.... (I don't know!!??)....... I LIVE for showing and have that "DESIRE" to want to do well!!! So it serves me NO purpose to raise something that can not produce show quality...... if it doesn't produce show quality..... It will go!

Anyways...... that's my 2 cents on that! lol!

 

[Leeana]

I dont think there is anything wrong with using the big dog and little dog expression.

The 'Little Dogs' are doing exactly what the 'Big Dogs' are doing exept on a smaller scale. Instead of breeding 30 or 40 WONDERFUl foals they are producing 4 or 5. Instead of having 8 HIGH QUALITY breeding stallions they have 2 HIGH QUALITY breeding stallions. Instead of having 15 horses on their show string they have 4.

See what i mean? I think if you want to classify yourself as a Little Dog then why in the world should you not have a right to be a little dog? If your (not just you jean, i say 'your' as in anyone reading) one of the big dogs in the business then congrats for making it that far by all means, guess i just dont see what is so wrong about placing yourself in the little dog or big dog catigory. I dont think anyone on here came out and pointed out which farms are the big dogs and small dogs publicly (even though i think we all can think of who are the big dogs and who are the small dogs, open up an issue of The Journal and visit the LB breeders connect.

Jean i agree with you on some parts, dont get me wrong but that is just my opinion

 

[DunPainted]

: Jean Barnhill has been a PATIENT, NON-JUDGMENTAL, MINI MENTOR to me for over four years. Like any "newbie/little dog" (very aply phrased).....I've finally got it through my THICK SKULL that breeding minis whose genetic confirmation and, more importantly temperment is a selfish mistake. Said mistake is one reason, from what I've learned to date, is the lack of the breed's betterment.

There's a host of mini-mentors I've 'CHOSEN' to assist me in re-evaluating my selection of miniature horses. Frankly, as a few said, "IT'S JUST AS EASY TO FEED ONE GOOD HORSE, than a few mediocre"!

: All I can liken it to is those individuals who buy "any" Rottweiler or Doberman, without studing bloodlines, confirmation and TEMPERMENT of dam/sire.....for the sole purpose of the goal of MAKING BIG BUCKS. Look what's happened to these breeds -- watered down versions of once intelligent, working animals who protect both family and property....IF NEED BE. For instance, I owned a Rottie before the "craze" began. Knowing the potential strength and inherent temperment of the breed, Colonel received two years' of training. He was gentle as a lamb around children (yes, I was responsible enough to be in the room), and the best darned dog I've ever had.

Now, look what America's "less than intelligent - money grubbing" have produced! A nasty animal with a vicious reputation -- whose very existence on one's property UP'S PROPERTY INSURANCE PREMIUMS!!

All I can say is (as a 4-year newbie) TO OTHER NEWBIES:

Monitor this Forum frequently, decide which breeders/members who "you respect"!

Trust me....they will be glad to take you under their wing.

Additionally, wisdom dictates that WHEN ONE FINDS THEMSELF IN A NEW SITUATION.......they need to earn their place at the table. [/b]

:

Cindy

 

[wildoak]

Amen Jean! What I have read into some of the recent threads sounds like jealousy - the big dogs, the rich farms, etc just in it for themselves.. Most have worked their way up to "big dog" status LOL, some are honest and ethical, some are not just like any random population group. Let's don't make it "us" vs "them".

As to breeding ethically and selectively, that's just so common sense and correct it's hard to imagine anyone arguing at least in principle with it.

Jan

 

[starleemay]

Since were talking about b.s. This really pi--s me off. :new_2gunsfiring_v1: I bought an AMHA/AMHR reg mare. She originally came from I wouldn't even call her a little dog breeder. She just let the mares run with an AMHA stallion. Then sold them all not knowing for sure if they were bred or not.

: Now my mare did foal (a black & white pinto filly). Which I can't get papers for her. When I emailed the person, they didn't even remember the reg name of the stallion!!! People that don't want to take care of the paperwork should not be making the excess of miniature horses any worse than it already is. :aktion033:

 

[Buckskin gal]

So sorry you aren't able to register the foal. the breeder would have had to send in a stallion report for the foal to be registered. You should have gotten a stallion certificate from the stud owner at the time you bought the mare as that is what the paperwork requires. We sure have to learn to have all the paperwork in order when we buy something or we can be stuck. Can tell you that not all big dogs even have their paperwork always up to date before selling...kind of a pet peeve of mine. Mary

Since were talking about b.s. This really pi--s me off. :new_2gunsfiring_v1: I bought an AMHA/AMHR reg mare. She originally came from I wouldn't even call her a little dog breeder. She just let the mares run with an AMHA stallion. Then sold them all not knowing for sure if they were bred or not.

: Now my mare did foal (a black & white pinto filly). Which I can't get papers for her. When I emailed the person, they didn't even remember the reg name of the stallion!!! People that don't want to take care of the paperwork should not be making the excess of miniature horses any worse than it already is. :aktion033: