Shuck-e-durn, we have founder

[Elizabeth_S]

Unfortunately, the banamine is just a pain killer. The bute actually helps as previously mentioned, though with the minis I add Gastroguard when giving bute and for a week or so afterwards. I would also take away everything except grass hay for now. I also like to put a foundered horse on a very padded surface. Marty's suggestions for 'booties' are spot on.

I do have a pony with chronic laminitis. I have found with him I can let him out on grass, but not for a month or so after it starts growing in the spring. If we have a dry year and suddenly get good rain, I need to keep him up then as well because of the sugar content in the new grass growth. He's an old man with not many good teeth left, so I have trouble keeping weight on him. I cannot feed him just grass hay and expect him to look like anything other than a skeleton. The Purina Senior is way too rich in carbs for him and will cause him to founder. The Purina Ultium is just perfect for him though. High in fat, lower in carbs, and keeps a very good weight on him. I swear by the stuff. But as with any new feed, start out in very small quantities to ensure your horse can tolerate it. And I would only feed it to a foundered horse if they are long past the original founder incident and you can't keep weight on the horse with just grass hay.

Just remember every horse is an individual, and what works for some may not with others, especially as far as feeding is concerned. I wish you the best of luck. Founder isn't a fun thing.

 

[Frankie]

I so greatly appreciate all your time and suggestions.

As for padding his stall, what do you suggest? I use woody pet in the stalls and it is obviously not soft and I don't believe it to be enough.

So what, 6" of pine shavings? I have mats, but I hate them with a passion and they are on the cement in front of the barn where I bath and clip. Would the mats down first help?

I have already been told no more grass ever. So, a muzzle so he can go out and play? His dry lot that runs out from his stall is 12 x60 so he does have some room to run,,,,but not really RUN.

thanks again for all the help. I am off to read some of the links.

He is on Bute, his case is not a mild one and we will be doing x-rays.

I have tagament on hand, give with the Bute? It will do the same thing, correct?

 

[Elizabeth_S]

Actually, if you thoroughly wet the Woody Pet where it's fluffy, and use several bags of it, it's perfect for padding. I use Woody Pet a lot as well, but always have it fluffed. And to keep it fluffed well, just take your fork and majorly 'sift' it thoroughly at least once a day. Even after you have thoroughly wet it, if you don't fluff it by the thorough sifting once a day, I have found it will pack down pretty hard. Mats would help, but if you use enough bedding, you should be able to do without them.

Wish I could help you on the muzzle, but I do not use them so I don't know. I would think that would work though. You can certainly always try it and watch him closely when you first turn him out.

 

[Frankie]

I hate to just stall him, he already looks sad enough. But I will if I have to.

What if I keep his section of the dry lot watered down each day?

Oh, I trim my horses feet.

Suggestions where to go to, to make sure his is done correctly? Or does someone want to jump in and tell me?

Thanks again.

 

[CharmedMinis]

Carolyn, so sorry to hear one foundered on you..........it's a pain in the rear

X-rays are definitely a good idea and my vet has told me they should be done once a month for about 3 months on a severe case of founder. And then again 3 months later (6 months after the initial onset).

My vet also does not like to bed with shavings for founder because they just get squished down. I don't know if you would beable to do this or not........but my vet says nothing is better for founder than 4 to 6 inches of very fine sand because it moves and squishes around with them.

As for medications........long term my vet uses Isoxuprine. And I had great success with adding Yucca powder. And there is a supplement for Laminitis that you can get through Valley Vet, it's called LaminaSaver. It's very expensive allthough not too bad for mini doses. I had my mare on it and I did notice a difference.

Your vet will beable to tell you how to trim him, going by what the x-rays show.

Hope everything works out

 

[Ashley]

Ok Dona, just offering my opinon from my own horse, and being told from a farrier that trimmed a horse we used to own that was like that. Take if for what its worth........just my experiance.

 

[Dona]

Dona, I have to agree with Ashley & Marty--whatever caused those rings on your mare's foot isn't founder--there is something more than that going on with that hoof.  For one thing, even if those were founder rings, they would be level, more or less, across the foot.  In your picture, the rings are much higher on one side than the other, which indicates to me that the hoof is for some reason crooked.  That outside wall is curling under--it isn't just the rings making it appear to be crooked.  I tried to remove the rings, to see how the hoof would look without them,  not sure how well this worked:  edited to add--it didn't work; I smoothed out the hoof & saved it to photobucket, but the picture doesn't post here????  Anyway, without the rings, the hoof is still distorted.

How old is this mare?

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This mare is 4 years old. And I really DO appreciate your & Ashley's suggestions (input).

I'm never too old to learn on this Forum. You are right in that her hoof appears to be curling under from the outside to the inside. And I definitely don't profess to know everything about trimming. When it comes to "problems" I will leave it to a professional...just never had any problems with hooves until now. I just find it hard to believe this could have happened so quickly from

"incorrect" trimming...when I've always trimmed her exactly the same way. Her hooves have always been very easy to trim....as she wears them evenly, heel doesn't grow faster than toe (and vice versa).

I AM going to have her checked by a reputable farrier to see what they think & how to proceed. I'm wondering now if it could have been an injury like a bruised sole, etc....as someone else has mentioned.

 

[Minimor]

Ah, I thought, Dona, that she might be about that age. I have to say, I don't think it's incorrect trimming that has done this at all. I had a Morgan gelding do exactly the same thing when he was 3 to 4 years old, only he didn't get the rings like that. He seemed nice & straight, and then all of a sudden that foot went funny. I finally figured out that it was a growth thing--the problem really wasn't in the foot itself, it is at the ankle. As this gelding matured, that one foot turned out just a little bit--no matter that I'd been trimming him straight, & I had been getting him nice & straight!--it's just his conformation to have that foot turn out. Please don't take offense when I say this, but from the photo you posted I think that your mare turns out just that exact same way, from the ankle. A photo can be deceiving, of course, but it looks like this could be the problem. It took some doing, but I finally figured out how to trim this gelding of ours to make the hoof look more normal. If I trim him level as I see it, his foot looks hideous. I don't do corrective trimming on a mature horse (as in, I don't trim him to try and make him stand straight as I'd like him to be straight)--rather, I trim him so that he is straight for how his conformation means him to be....level for him. It makes a big difference.

The weird thing is, I've had a horse before that toed in (BADLY) & we once had a mare that toed out slightly on one foot, and neither of them had their hoofs grow in like this younger gelding we have now. His degree of turning out on that foot is very small, and I haven't quite figured out why it affects the foot so badly.

(Sorry, Frankie, we've hijacked your thread!!)

 

[CharmedMinis]

Dona- I'm wondering if maybe your mare injured her coronet band in some way. You could clip away the hair with a 40 or 50 blade and see if you can see any type of recent injury.

Or........you said she foaled, when did she foal?? Could be that she had a very mild placentitis or something similar that resolved on it's own but left it's mark on that foot..................hmmmm.........

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

another thing to remember is to check the content of your grass hay and have it analyzed many times it is a false security that your feeding grass hay and it has lots more (or can) protien content and richness then people think.

I would talk to your vet about bute as well this is one of those times that it might be needed

I had a mare that foundered was not feed related at all vet called it metobolic founder. I wrapped her feet so she could go out in the dry lot for a bit with less pain i put diapers cut to fit her feet although they are much thinner now then in those days maybe a couple regular maxi pads and then some vet wrap so she had some extra cushion

 

[Fred]

Bute is generally reccomended as is Isoxoprine. Asprin, and MSM have also been used. Every vet has a different way of dealing with founder. If it is a laminitic

attack, with the right response the horse is better in just a couple of days. Unless

the horse is severely lame or you are really worried would I take x-rays. We

had an arab mare that we got because she was extremely foundered, rotated,

the whole bit. That horse became completely sound and we were able to change

the rotation back to where you would never know the horse rotated. Understand

this is not the norm, we are farriers and this horse was constantly observed.

One thing I have done {and my vet loves this,] I make leather pads with frog

supports for my clients with minis with chronic founder. The one thing no one

has mentioned is the fact that founder or laminitis can also be brought on by extreme weather changes. I know just when certain clients are going to call just

because of the weather change. Founder or laminitis is caused by stress on the

system, sometimes finding the cause can be challenging as is getting the vet to

believe you sometimes. Linda B

 

[Dona]

Dona-  I'm wondering if maybe your mare injured her coronet band in some way.  You could clip away the hair with a 40 or 50 blade and see if you can see any type of recent injury.
Or........you said she foaled, when did she foal??  Could be that she had a very mild placentitis or something similar that resolved on it's own but left it's mark on that foot..................hmmmm.........

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Hmmmmmmmmmm.....something else to consider & ask the vet about. She foaled 3 months ago.

 

[Dona]

Ah, I thought, Dona, that she might be about that age.  I have to say, I don't think it's incorrect trimming that has done this at all.  I had a Morgan gelding do exactly the same thing when he was 3 to 4 years old, only he didn't get the rings like that.  He seemed nice & straight, and then all of a sudden that foot went funny.  I finally figured out that it was a growth thing--the problem really wasn't in the foot itself, it is at the ankle.  As this gelding matured,  that one foot turned out just a little bit--no matter that I'd been trimming him straight, & I had been getting him nice & straight!--it's just his conformation to have that foot turn out.  Please don't take offense when I say this, but from the photo you posted I think that your mare turns out just that exact same way, from the ankle.  A photo can be deceiving, of course, but it looks like this could be the problem.  It took some doing, but I finally figured out how to trim this gelding of ours to make the hoof look more normal.  If I trim him level as I see it, his foot looks hideous.  I don't do corrective trimming on a mature horse (as in, I don't trim him to try and make him stand straight as I'd like him to be straight)--rather, I trim him so that he is straight for how his conformation means him to be....level for him.  It makes a big difference.
The weird thing is, I've had a horse before that toed in (BADLY) & we once had a mare that toed out slightly on one foot, and neither of them had their hoofs grow in like this younger gelding we have now.  His degree of turning out on that foot is very small, and I haven't quite figured out why it affects the foot so badly.

(Sorry, Frankie, we've hijacked your thread!!)

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Hmmmmmmmmm........another interesting "theory". I've had so many suggestions on what it "might" be. Just wish I knew for sure, what happend. Guess only time will tell.

Will let you know when my vet & farrier come out & tell me what they think caused it.

Sorry Carolyn....didn't mean to take away from your post.

How's your boy doing?

 

[Marty]

First Dona I want to humbley throw myself bodily at your feet and sob and lick your toes and hand you a whip to beat me and apoligize for insinutating that you were not trimming properly. Shame on me. I am sorry I offended you like that. Me and my big mouth I swear to pete sometimes I just want to shoot myself in the foot.

I want to say too Dona that last year Silver Belle's feet looked like that on one foot. I think she was trying to grass founder on me, plus I did have a meatball for a farrier too. Her angels were just way way way "off". I pulled her off of grass for the rest of the summer. Julie, R3 minis came and trimmed my horses, spent a lot of time with her especially, and the rings went away and no trouble since. Don't really know what it was for sure, but a combination of things perhaps. But all in all, there are sometimes just no plausable reason for horses to founder in some cases. Sometimes things remain a mystery.

Rabbitsfizzy Whizzy,

the reason that I suggest X rays is because you can detect a rotation from that and to what degree you are being faced with. X rays are like a "roadmap"......if a vet can go over the X rays with a talented farrier, they can then team up and work together in trying to help stablize the horse. I realize that not everyone can do this however. But if my horse came up dead lame and I suspected founder/ laminitis I would request X rays. If in fact I had a horse that was so far gone and rotated and the coffin bone was going to be coming up through the sole of the foot in time, I would not hesitate to put him down in lew of having him face the riggers of pain that lay before him. I made that mistake once and I won't ever go through that again. The X rays would help me make that dreaded decision.

Carolyn, contact Julie at R3 minis. See if she is going to be in your neck of the woods. She travels a lot. If so, have her come and put her talent to work for you. Carolyn if you do have mats, I would be very generous with shavings on top of them. The object is to keep the horse on soft ground. If it rains and you get mud, let your horse stand in soft mud. They love it, it feels good to them. As far as medications go, I only know that in my cases of founder, bute was the only thing that even came close to giving my rotated horse a half way decent day where he wasn't in horrible pain. Bute worked. Nothing else I tried even came close to touching this. I kept him zonked out of his mind with the stuff rather than see him suffer like he was. That was no way for him to live, so I did what was best for him.

 

[~Palomino~]

Dona, I dont see how that could be from clipping wrong!! her whole hoof looks like it is going to the left and her leg is staying, i am no hoof person though just my thought!!

-Gage-

Ashley & Marty....I'm glad to hear you don't think it's founder.  I DO appreciate your input...but I have been trimming my own horses for over 20 years & I have a good eye for angles.  I always make sure my horses hooves are "level" when trimming.  I'm not saying I'm perfect....in any way.  I can & do make mistakes, and always looking to improve.  But I've been trimming this mare since she was 6 months old & this odd hoof "growth" has just happened in the last few months.  Her hooves have been absolutely perfect until now, and so have all my other minis (which I have always trimmed).
I worked & worked on her to get her absolutely level.  I know those rings make the hoof "look" like its off, but believe me when I say it is absolutely EVEN on both sides.  My friend has a very good farrier...will probably get him out here to get his opinion on how to proceed.

THANKS for the advice....I feel a bit better that it's probably not founder now.

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[~Palomino~]

I also have heard that Water can cause founder? is that true?

 

[Fred]

ANYTHING causing stress to the horses system can cause founder. Colic can with

the pain from it, cold water to a hot horse, bad trimming [mechanical founder],

metabolic imbalance [Cushings etc.], even sever weather changes can! Dona I

think what your mare is developing is what is called a wry foot. I thought you did

just fine on your trim job. When the foot starts to go like that it is very hard to

make it look good. Horses get rings on their feet all the time not all rings are

founder. With founder when you trim you will see the white line get a lot more

pronounced and funny looking this is called 'seedy toe'. Linda B

 

[Dona]

First Dona I want to humbley throw myself bodily at your feet and sob and lick your toes and hand you a whip to beat me and apoligize for insinutating that you were not trimming properly. Shame on me. I am sorry I offended you like that. Me and my big mouth I swear to pete sometimes I just want to shoot myself in the foot.
I want to say too Dona that last year Silver Belle's feet looked like that on one foot. I think she was trying to grass founder on me, plus I did have a meatball for a farrier too. Her angels were just way way way "off".  I pulled her off of grass for the rest of the summer. Julie, R3 minis came and trimmed my horses, spent a lot of time with her especially, and the rings went away and no trouble since. Don't really know what it was for sure, but a combination of things perhaps. But all in all, there are sometimes just no plausable reason for horses to founder in some cases. Sometimes things remain a mystery.

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Marty....you are too funny! While you are down there licking my toes....how about a pedicure?

Hey, no one knows better than me that I'm not infallible...I CAN make mistakes.

That's why I'm on here asking for suggestions/ideas & why I'm getting a good farrier out here to check her out. I just "feel" that if improper trimming were actually causing this...it would have happened long before now.

 

[runamuk]

Robin C posted the best sites I know of for dealing with founder.

This is just kinda an aside having dealt with lots of cases of founder in everything from mini's to full size......caused by everything from starvation to really bad farrier to retained placenta.......I find it interesting that everyone hollers no grass ever then in the same breath says feed grass hay

then there is the no alfalfa regime.......well I am here to say that many many many horses have foundered recovered and gone back to the pasture life with no re occurance ever.......and we have an old pony hanging around here who has foundered in the past he can and does spend late summer on pasture and is wintered on straight alfalfa it is only spring grass and grain that seem to set him off.......definately go read everything on the safer grass site you will have a whole new perspective on pasture/grass/and founder.

As much as people dislike bute use in mini's this is the one time where it is definately the drug of choice banamine does not have the anti inflammatory properties that bute has so it is pretty much useless in helping correct the underlying problem......I find a deep bedded stall and turnout in sand to be the best for an actively foundering horse.......ruling out cushings, thyroid, and other underlying health issues is also a priority because all the weight loss and diet changes in the world wont help if there are medical issues that haven't been treated. Good luck and remember founder doesn't have to be a career ending death sentence.