She doesn't want to walk.

[Lmequine]

1/4 gram bute morning and night for a mini the size of yours. It is imortant to give the bute to keep the inflammation down in the laminae of the hoof, inflammation equals permenant damage and the small doses of bute will really help the internal part of the hoof. Sometimes you will see a lot of relief in the way the horse moves, sometimes not but do know that it is working.

My husband is a journeyman farrier and works with three different equine clinics on their laminitis cases. This mare does sound pretty typical of a mini or pony with laminitis. As the others have said NO GRAIN during this flare up. Even a little grain can make things worse. Go with a good quality hay or even some alfalfa cubes would be alright. We had one mini that even the smallest amount of whole oats would make her very lame and a pony that even with two mouth fulls of sweet feed he would be sore the next day. Laminitis can be set off with weather changes, diet changes and metabolism changes in your mare.

 

[chandab]

Still wish someone would give me some idea of the dosage of Bute though. She's 31" tall. I understand that a tablet is 1 gram and a big horse would get 2 grams twice a day. Soooo 1/4 of 2 grams (approx 300 lb vs 1200 lbs) would be 1/2 pill rather than the 1/4 I've been giving her. Maybe 1/4 pill twice a day rather than the once a day I've been giving it to her. Anybody????

Ok, I have a bottle of bute tabs right in front of me, it says: "Orally - 1 to 2 tablets per 500# of body weight, but not to exceed 4 grams daily. Reduce dosage as symptoms regress." [1 tablet = 1 gram]

As many minis are very sensitive to bute; when I give it, I use 1/3 to 1/2 tablet daily for my B-size minis (35-38" and around 350#) and that seems to do the trick for me. Not saying you couldn't give the same or more to your 31" mare, just that this seems to work for me.

[i read an article in TheHorse.com not too long ago about using bute in pregnant mares (I realize your mare probably isn't pregnant, but the toxic effects on the body are likely still the same), and one of the things it said was to dose only once a day or even every other day to reduce the toxic effects of bute due to the way the body metabolizes bute and how long it stays in the body. So, between this article and my vet's recommendation of once daily, I only administer once daily (except for extreme circumstances, which would be determined by my vet).]

 

[wildhorses]

I have an older mare going through exactly what you are explaining. I was hesitant to start her on Bute, but had to do something as she was going downhill fast. After a long discussion and exam by my vet, he felt it was her best option. He felt it was safe if carefully dosed, and also felt because it was such a low dose that there was little chance of developing an ulcer or other complications. My vet advised me to administer 1/2 a tablet (approxmately 500 mg) for 4-5 days for a loading dose, and then 1/4 tablet (250 mg) daily thereafter. The dose of bute is 1 mg per pound of body weight. I grind mine up, mix it with a teaspoon of yogurt, and administer with a syringe.

I honestly have not seen much improvement in the pain with my mare in the two weeks I have been giving the bute. Farrier was also out to give her a good trim and found no issues, other than her chronic founder. She is quite arthritic according to the vet. I have ordered Corta-Flx and also Remission and will be starting her on that this week. I hope that makes some improvements. She is lying down more, takes all of her effort to take every step she takes, legs act very stiff, walks on the heels of her hooves rather than her toes, and holding up her back legs. We have a few inches of snow, and I have walked her in that and let her stand in that, seems to make no obvious difference. I have been keeping her in a deeply bedded stall, and taking her for daily walks to keep her moving and loosened up. She has a harder time getting up for the laying position.

It has been a few weeks since the farrier was out to work on her feet, so going to have him come out again this week to look at her and see if she needs another trim. I am becoming more concerned about her and her prognosis. I am not ready to give up on her yet. She is 22 years old, and feel she has more life in her if I can get her pain managed.

Like many others, my feed choices are limited. I have her on mostly grass hay with small amount of alfalfa. She needs grain or another supplement for weight, as she does not maintain weight on just hay alone. The beet pulp is hard to work with in these freezing temps, as is soaking hay really not much of an option in the winter. My choices for grain are Purina and Nutrina Products.

Can anyone recommend what would be the Best purina or nutrina grain product for her? I have currently been feeding her a Senior pellet feed made by Hubbard Feeds, called "Front Runner, Senior Phase 5". Can anyone tell me what NSC is on the feed label or what it stands for, I can't find that on my feed bag tag. What should I ideally be looking for on these feed bag tags to find the right feed for her?

Thanks for any advice, and I hope your horse feels better soon, as I do mine.

 

[chandab]

I have an older mare going through exactly what you are explaining. I was hesitant to start her on Bute, but had to do something as she was going downhill fast. After a long discussion and exam by my vet, he felt it was her best option. He felt it was safe if carefully dosed, and also felt because it was such a low dose that there was little chance of developing an ulcer or other complications. My vet advised me to administer 1/2 a tablet (approxmately 500 mg) for 4-5 days for a loading dose, and then 1/4 tablet (250 mg) daily thereafter. The dose of bute is 1 mg per pound of body weight. I grind mine up, mix it with a teaspoon of yogurt, and administer with a syringe.
I honestly have not seen much improvement in the pain with my mare in the two weeks I have been giving the bute. Farrier was also out to give her a good trim and found no issues, other than her chronic founder. She is quite arthritic according to the vet. I have ordered Corta-Flx and also Remission and will be starting her on that this week. I hope that makes some improvements. She is lying down more, takes all of her effort to take every step she takes, legs act very stiff, walks on the heels of her hooves rather than her toes, and holding up her back legs. We have a few inches of snow, and I have walked her in that and let her stand in that, seems to make no obvious difference. I have been keeping her in a deeply bedded stall, and taking her for daily walks to keep her moving and loosened up. She has a harder time getting up for the laying position.

I've used Corta-Flx for my senior gelding for his arthritis and it did seem to help him. He's currently on something else, and I'm switching again; trying a new to me supplement that is more economical, if it works that'll be great, if not I'll go back to what works for him.

One of my laminitic mares needed bute to get her pain under control, but once we got it under control I switched her to B-L pellets (herbal pain reliever) and that seemed to work quite well for her.

Like many others, my feed choices are limited. I have her on mostly grass hay with small amount of alfalfa. She needs grain or another supplement for weight, as she does not maintain weight on just hay alone. The beet pulp is hard to work with in these freezing temps, as is soaking hay really not much of an option in the winter. My choices for grain are Purina and Nutrina Products.

Yes, beet pulp can be a royal pain in freezing temps, but I feed it everyday, including last week when the temps were below zero (like 20 below for 3-4 days in row - farenheit). I only feed 1/3# to each mini (mostly for hydration purposes), and they seem to be able to eat that up just fine before it freezes.

Can anyone recommend what would be the Best purina or nutrina grain product for her? I have currently been feeding her a Senior pellet feed made by Hubbard Feeds, called "Front Runner, Senior Phase 5". Can anyone tell me what NSC is on the feed label or what it stands for, I can't find that on my feed bag tag. What should I ideally be looking for on these feed bag tags to find the right feed for her?
Thanks for any advice, and I hope your horse feels better soon, as I do mine.

If you can get it, the best Purina is probably their new Wellsolve L/S.

You aren't likely to find the NSC level listed on the bag or label of feed, you usually have to contact the company for that information or have it tested yourself. NSC stands for non-structural carbohydrates, which is sugar and starch.

 

[Marty]

Hi Donna. I agree with everyone your horse is in pain and you have been given much good advice. I'd be giving 1/2 tab bute for a little bit. We are all learing so much about these things compared to years ago when there wasn't enough information or studies back then, so now we are really lucky there is so much more knowledge we can absorb.

I don't see how the farrier could justify giving you those odds, on a scale from 1-10, she's a 1 1/2. I don't know just where that information is coming from and if he has the ability to read the X rays to know this. I would look for a Pete Ramey or Gene Obernic trained natural barefoot trimmer who is trained specifically in the proper trim for a laminitic horse. So many farriers say they are, just to get your business but really don't have a clue and do more harm than good.

Here is a list of some that I found in your state but I don't have any idea if any of them are good or have been through Pete or Gene's course. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

K/S Natural Hoof Care

3601 Highway FF, Pacific, Missouri 63069

Phone: 636-587-2886, Cell: 314-566-2497

Wildway Natural Hoof Care, LLC

653 Dietrich Rd., Foristell, Missouri 63348

Phone: 636-459-5460, Cell: 636-459-5460

Julie's Farrier Service, Julie Plaster

1224 Timberline, Moberly, Missouri 65270

Phone: (660)263-9050, Cell: (660)651-1482

Kim Wilson, SHP, Dittmer, Missouri Phone: 314-795-8218 Email: kim.wilson @ sessions-inc.com or k.wilson @ ruralcom.net (03/08)

 

[AppyLover2]

Thanks again everyone for your response. Yesterday evening's "she looks better" turned out to not last through the night. Back to barely hobbling this morning so I spoke with the vet. He said there's very little he can do; just give her Bute, keep her well bedded, etc. Basically the same kinds of thing you guys have told me. He did say that I shouldn't worry more about the ulcer than the pain because being in pain can cause an ulcer too. Soooo will try to get somewhere to get some Ulcergard (or something like it) and more Bute today. Thanks for the Bute info Chandab. He confirmed that a 1,000 lb horse gets 2 so a 250 lb horse would get 1/4.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

With an animal in as much pain as yours appears to be I would be inclined to be quite aggressive with the treatment. I would have her on no grain whatsoever, this is the most important...why do you feel you have to give her some grain??

None, zilch!!

If you can get hold of a herbal supplement get her something like nettle, it stimulates the blood, and I would give her the worst, clean hay I could get, or a small amount of hay and some good clean straw.

I always give ranitidine with bute, be aware that it affects the way that the bute is absorbed, so it should be given after giving the bute, and even then, it will affect it a bit, it just helps coat the gut a bit.

I am on it permanently so I always have it to hand, but you can buy it over the counter, I know.

I know Vets tend to throw up their hands and say they can do nothing but, as someone who has brought five horses back form the brink, now, I am here to tell you there is LOADS you can do!!

I think I am right in saying that a bute dose should always be given twice a day???

Good Luck, hang in there, get the medication right and yo will start to get an improvement, but you have to be "cruel" to be kind with something like this.

 

[Knighthawke]

I dont know if anyone suggested you see if she has a digital pulse in her foot. You check for it at the back of the pasturn. You can check it but in a foundered horse it will be a bounding pulse.

I found this link on how to check for it.

Checking for a digital pulse

 

[SilverDollar]

So sorry to hear you are both going through this (AppyLover2 and wildhorses). You have been given some great information and advice.

I would like to add a recommendation to check out the Yahoo Equine Cushing's Group. While the name says Cushing's, they are able to provide lots of information with regard to laminitis--much is caused by either Cushing's or Insulin Resistance. Try not to get overwhelmed as there is a LOT of information but feel free to post questions. It's a very active board filled with very caring and experienced horse people who have been or are exactly where you are at with your little ones. I, too, feel your pain as I have a profoundly insulin resistant/Cushing's pony mare that was literally brought back from the brink. I thank God for the wonderful people I have met along the journey and owe my pony's life to their help and guidance. I have also been able to provide my vets with lots of information and resources they would not have otherwise had (they're great vets but most vets don't have a lot of experience with laminitis cases with successful outcomes).

Marty has given excellent advice for either Pete Ramey or Gene Ovnicek trimmers (websites: Pete Ramey or Gene Ovnicek). My own trimmer is a Pete Ramey trained trimmer and is wonderful.

Diet (low-sugar hay, no grain), trim, pain management, and possibly medication for Cushing's are all key components to managing laminitis.

Good luck!

 

[AppyLover2]

Bumping this back up for more ideas/suggestions. Kitty isn't eating the hay. Since I'm not giving her anything else I'm wondering if I should try to find something else or if I should just wait her out - hate to do that because I'm sure she's gonna be getting pretty darned hungry soon. By "something else" I mean some type of hay pellets or cubes Other than Alfalfa. Any ideas on what that might be?

Also I made some calls this morning and the only beet pulp I can find around here is WITH molasses. Should I go ahead and get that for her? or look for something else? What "something else" would that be?

Thanks guys.

 

[Becky]

Can you get a grass pellet? She does need to be eating something (but not grain) as not eating can just keep her symptoms flared up. Here, I can get Standlee Orchard Grass pellets which have an NSC of 11. That will work. As close to 10% or lower the better.

I use beet pulp with molasses as it's all I can get. You have to soak it for several hours, drain and then rinse until the water runs clear. If you are interested, I'll post a chart/charts of feedstuffs and hays that I've been collecting/saving showing the NSC of many popular brands of feed and feed products.

 

[Knighthawke]

You could get that beet pulp and then put a lot of water on it an drain the excess water off. It should help remove some of the water.

You could try alalfa pellets or cubes but if she will not eat fresh alfalfa I don't think she would eat the processed stuff.

 

[AppyLover2]

Thanks Becky. I was primarily concerned about the beet pulp. At least she'll be getting something to in that tummy until she decides to eat some hay. Heading for town now to get some more Bute and beet pulp. Thanks Bunches for your quick response. I'd love to see that chart if you have time to post it.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Dengies do a hi fibre complete feed for laminitic ponies, Google it and see if there is anywhere near you that does it.

A friend of mine feeds her Shetland on nothing else as it is relatively cheap and they eat every single bit.

I don't think you should be thinking of beet pulp....No grain???...just get her eating a bit of hay or hay pellets, nothing over 10/!!% protein, and give her some clean straw to much on.

If she is in pain she will get depressed and may not eat.

Make sure she is drinking, in the meantime.

 

[Becky]

Here is the list and charts of feed and forage products and the NSC values of each. I add to this when I learn more.

Beet pulp is lower than the chart shows after soaking and rinsing.

NSC Feed Values

LMF - Low Carb Complete Stage 1 - 11% or less

LMF Senior - 30%

FARNAM:

Platform Senior - 16.1%

BLUE SEAL:

Vintage Gold - 32%

Vintage Mare Foal - 33%

Vintage Senior - 20%

Vintage Racer - 30%

Vintage Sweet - 35%

Vintage Victory 36%

Demand - 26%

Contender - 34%

Hunter - 33%

Trotter - 25%

Sport 40%

Strider - 42%

Charger - 39%

Pacer - 48%

Rider - 44%

Horse 10 - 45%

POULIN:

Senior 31.3%

MVP - 17.4% (27% protein)

Stablemate 14 complete - 16.3%

Endure 10:12 - 33.7%

Endure 10:8 - 33.9%

Carb Safe - 10% or less

SEMINOLE Happy Hoof - 15%

Sterett Low Carb Complete (pelleted - hay) - 8.6%

TRIPLE CROWN:

10% performance - 41.5%

14% performance - 38.2%

Complete 21.7%

Senior - 15.7%

Growth - 19.8%

Low Starch - 15.0%

Lite - 15.9%

12% - 29.7%

PURINA:

Horse Chow 100 - 16%

Horse Chow 200 - 18%

Strategy - 28%

Omelene 100 - 40.5% (eeegads!)

Equine Adult - 20%

Equine Jr - 23%

Equine Sr - 22%

Complete Advantage 22.9% (beet pulp based)

Nature Essentials (Mare & Main) supplement - 16% (protein about 12-14%)

Nature Essentials Born to Win 16% (but 32% protein)

WellSolve L/S is 11%; the W/C is 15%.

NUTRENA -

SafeChoice - 28% (12% sugar, 16% starch)

Standlee Orchard Grass pellets-

Orchard grass pellets have an average NSC of 11% and a sugar content of 12%.

Table 1. Average Sugar, Starch and Non-Structural Carbohydrate (NSC) Values of Selected Feedstuffs*.

Feedstuff Sugar Starch NSC

Oat Hay 16.0% 6.3% 22.1%

Barley Hay 14.9% 5.8% 20.4%

Alfalfa Hay 8.9% 2.5% 11.3%

Bermudagrass Hay 7.5% 6.1% 13.6%

Grass Hay 11.1% 2.9% 13.8%

Alfalfa Pellets 7.2% 2.3% 9.3%

Alfalfa Cubes 8.3% 2.0% 10.2%

Grass Pasture 10.3% 3.4% 12.1%

Rice Bran 6.2% 17.7% 21.2%

Oats 4.8% 44.4% 54.1%

Corn 3.7% 70.3% 73.3%

Barley 6.0% 53.7% 61.7%

Beet Pulp 10.7% 1.4% 12.3%

Wheat Bran 8.7% 23.0% 30.8%

Soybean Hulls 4.3% 1.9% 6.3%

Wheat Middlings 10.1% 26.2% 32.0%

Soybean Meal 14.3% 2.1% 16.2%

*Values are from Equi-Analytical Laboratories, Ithaca, NY, reported on dry matter basis.

Table 2. Sugar, Starch and Non-Structural Carbohydrate (NSC) Values*.

Horse Feed and Form WSC ESC Starch + ESC NSC

Triple Crown 10% Performance Textured 5.6% 5.6% 33.3% 38.9% 38.9%

Triple Crown 14% Performance Textured 6.3% 5.6% 31.8% 37.4% 38.1%

Triple Crown Training Formula Textured 8.4% 5.1% 14.4% 19.5% 22.8%

Triple Crown Complete Textured 8.8% 8.9% 11.8% 20.7% 20.6%

Triple Crown Senior Textured 5.3% 6.8% 6.4% 13.2% 11.7%

Triple Crown Growth Textured 8.3% 7.8% 5.6% 13.4% 13.9%

Triple Crown Low Starch Pelleted 3.1% 5.6% 10.4% 16.0% 13.5%

Triple Crown Lite Pelleted 4.8% 5.0% 4.5% 9.5% 9.3%

Triple Crown 12% Supplement Pelleted 2.3% 3.6% 21.8% 25.4% 24.1%

Triple Crown 30% Supplement Pelleted 8.0% 9.2% 1.8% 11.0% 9.8%

Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage Chopped 7.2% 4.3% 1.8% 6.1% 9.0%

Triple Crown Grass Forage Chopped 9.7% 8.1% 4.5% 12.6% 14.2%

Triple Crown Alfalfa Forage Chopped 9.9% 8.0% 4.7% 12.7% 14.6%

Triple Crown Rice Bran Extruded 7.0% 9.1% 16.2% 25.3% 23.2%

*Values determined by Equi-Analytical Laboratories, Ithaca, NY, reported on as sampled or as fed basis. WSC is water soluble carbohydrates, ESC is ethanol soluble carbohydrates, NSC is nonstructural carbohydrates and NSC = Starch + WSC. Select horse feeds and forage with low Starch + ESC values for horses to prevent laminitis, tying up disease (EPSM, PSSM, RER), prevention of Developmental Orthopedic Disease (DOD), calmer behavior and reduced insulin resistance for Equine Metabolic Syndrome and Equine Cushing's Disease. Also, forages with high NSC values (fructans) are more likely to cause laminitis. All feeds have fixed-ingredient formulas so carbohydrate values remain constant.

Those last two are charts and the numbers run together when I try to post them, but the last number in a row is the NSC.

 

[HGFarm]

I would certainly review her diet and for a horse with laminitis, absolutely no grain or high protein feeds. Watch some of your grass hay too though as some kinds can be high in protein and sugars too.(and if she is being switched from alfalfa to the grass, she is going to pick in it for a few days- hoping you will bring the alfalfa back)

Beet pulp without the molasses (I get the shreds, it's easier to use than pellets, in my opinion) is a good source of fiber and moisture in their system.

I would do some research for diets for laminitic horses and have your horse stick to that. Make sure your horse isn't carrying too much weight either.