Recent clinics

[ruffian]

I just got back from the AMHR Clinics. I sat through part of the judges clinic(about 5 hours) , as I was actually there for the stewards clinic.

The stewards clinic was presented by Jeanne Bragagnini, and as usual she did a great job. Lots of good information.

The judges clinic I was a little disappointed with.

If I were going to be a new judge, I wouldn't have gotten a heck of lot out of it. Lots of very interesting anecdotes, but not a lot of specific information.

What I was most disappointed with was the statement by one of the presenters to be used to decide how to place horses:

"Big over little, pretty over ugly". I absolutely agree with the second part, but if the basis of the miniature horse breed is size, and smaller is the goal, this is 180 degrees the wrong thing to teach new (and experienced!) judges IMO.

The presenter went on to state that in their opinion the smaller horses cannot be equal to bigger ones, so there's no sense in worrying about placing a big horse over a smaller one.

Another question I asked was "when is a horse set down for having too extreme action for a single/open pleasure class?" The response was "never" - you can NEVER have too much action for open pleasure. So why have a Park/Formal class? Response: - that's just a novelty class and doesn't mean anything. Another judge who was attending the clinic stated: Why would you punish an athlete???

 

[~Lisa~]

I guess I would somewhat have to agree that there is not really a reason to punish to much motion in a open pleasure class-

 

[kaykay]

Hey it was nice meeting you there!

I thought it was a great experience and learned a lot. Different perspective I guess. These presenters were all very knowledgeable with years and years of experience. I wish I knew 1/2 of what they know. I have shown under all of them and always found them to be spot on in their placings.

I totally agree with not punishing the athlete. Makes no sense to penalize a horse because it can move so well

Kay

 

[Sunny]

Dana, tell us more about the judges clinic, please? I wish I had been able to attend. Who were all the presenters and what all topics were covered?

 

[Amy]

Dana - that is really interesting -- I have never been at a judges clinic where we were told "Big over Little" -- always conformation., conformation. I think perhaps that was just that presenter's words or preferences being shown. Hope so anyway.

A horse cannot compete in both Open Pleasure & Park Harness at the same show -- therefore the explanation that there cannot be too much action in Open Pleasure, as that is as high as they can go at that show -- cannot enter into Park Harness

So, if a person feels their horse has too much action & wants to go into formal or Park Harness driving, then they have to choose to show in that class instead -- but a lot of shows do not offer park Harness so Open Pleasure is next.

Hope this helps.!!

 

[OhHorsePee]

Hi Dana! I so enjoyed meeting you.

It's always nice to place a face with the avatar. I wish we would have had time to visit.

I really enjoyed the clinics. To me it was very informative. I would deffinately go again and I really think it would benefit individuals who just want to show as well. Can never learn too much about anything!

We were able to ask questions and receive responces that were intelligent and to the point. I went to both the judges and the stewarts clinic and learned a bunch from both. All of the judges and Jeanne were approachable and very helpful.

 

[ruffian]

Dana - that is really interesting -- I have never been at a judges clinic where we were told "Big over Little" -- always conformation., conformation. I think perhaps that was just that presenter's words or preferences being shown. Hope so anyway."

Yes, this were the presenter's words, spoken as how to judge a class.

"A horse cannot compete in both Open Pleasure & Park Harness at the same show -- therefore the explanation that there cannot be too much action in Open Pleasure, as that is as high as they can go at that show -- cannot enter into Park Harness

So, if a person feels their horse has too much action & wants to go into formal or Park Harness driving, then they have to choose to show in that class instead -- but a lot of shows do not offer park Harness so Open Pleasure is next."

I understand, but the original concept of the "Park" class was that the high stepping horses with Modern/Hackney type action would go in to that class. So now we have Park horses in OPen and placing well, open horses dropping down to Country, and both registries developing a new class for previous country horses.

 

[CLC Stables]

I have yet to see a true "Park" miniature. I think the horse that would come closest won the Park Stakes at the Nationals a few years ago. But many of the horses we see competing in park classes should really only be in the pleasure division. I have to agree with the judge at that clinic.

But keep this in mind, it is all our opinion. The rules are guidelines, but we all interpret certain sections and wording differently. Now obviously some are very distinct, but other "rules" are extremely vague and give room for interpretation.

 

[ruffian]

Oh and Fran and Kay, it was great to meet you also! It's nice to match names and faces.

I only attended part of the Clinic, I think Fran and Kay sat through it all, perhaps they could advise more?

I know Jim Bruggink was going to present a clinic on hunter class that he showed me before the clinic. Looked like it was going to be very informative.

 

[ownedbyapony]

Dana,

Sorry to hear you were disappointed in the judges clinic. Though I am pleased that you attended as a general spectator.

I seldom if ever post on this forum but, I felt the need to defend myself because the comments that you quoted were taken out of context and did not contain a few qualifiers that I included in the discussion.

The comment you seem to question was a quote from an old judging coach from West Virginia, and as I stated was a quote that he used for horse judging IN GENERAL (all breeds). The whole quote is " Big beats little, pretty beats ugly and a dink is a dink is a dink..." This quote was used to explain that sometimes you need to break judging down to the basics. Especially when you are in a large class and getting bogged down and are struggling to place a class. I qualified the comment by saying that we need to remember that our rulebook states that we take size into consideration in our placings. I did make the comment that as an exhibitor in general we like to have the largest horse in the class because at times it is really difficult to have the 34 1/2 inch horse in the 38 inch class etc... If this is not the opinion of others I apologize but that is my personal experience. I am sorry if my comments offended the "small horse" they were not intended to, and by no means was this the focus of our 6 hour clinic. I'm sorry that this seems to be the only bit of information that you deemed worthy of taking away from the clinic. Numerous other topics were discussed about all divisions pertaining to the ASPC/AMHR.

As for my comment to your question "When is too much motion to be penalized in the OPEN Pleasure Class ? " I will stick by my response. If you read your rulebook the only divisions that even discuss penalizing extreme motion is in the country and western country pleasure class in the miniatures and Modern or Country pleasure class in the pony divisions. I guess when they decide to legislate motion in the Open Pleasure class in the miniatures I will change my opinions and methods of judging. I too believe that "you should not penalize the athlete" as you quoted one of the participants.

Thank you for allowing me to explain myself.

Amber Montgomery

 

[ruffian]

I appreciate your response Amber. Thank you for your clarification on your points.

I do need to say that - In my opinion - I would like to think that the miniature horse judges in general should be looking to place a smaller horse over the larger horse when possible. Is it always true? No, but there are some excellent examples of Miniature Horses that IMO meet the criteria for a Miniature that are being overlooked because another has 2 or 3 inches of leg, allowing for better movement, etc. I just see a lot of pony influence in the miniatures over the last few years, and don't want to see the miniature horse become a subset of the Shetland pony, and if the larger horse is ALWAYS being chosen first, the miniature horse may cease to exist as we know it today. Both are beautiful equines, but unique.

Also - as I said, I did not attend the entire clinic, although you had invited me in earlier. You gave some excellent verbal examples of how you placed a class, but if I had been a brand new judge, I would have like to see more visual examples. Jim had some tapes, but went through those very quickly. It would be great for AMHR to have National class clips to use.

Amber, I did not intend or plan to insult or upset you. Please accept my apologies if I did. You were very gracious in your response.

 

[hafpints]

Dana I agree with you about looking at size over confirmation and I have seen it myself at shows. I am glad you went to the clinics, if I would have realized they were coming up so soon I may have gone myself to see. I will see you at the shows her in Michigan.

April

 

[kaykay]

I only attended part of the Clinic, I think Fran and Kay sat through it all, perhaps they could advise more?

Some of the notes I took were

Extensive information on Hunter class including video of AMHR Nationals Hunter class

Information on judging youth what to do and what not to do so that we always encourage youth

Info on how a judge should conduct themselves during the show, before the show, after the show including where they should eat, how they should dress etc etc

Info on a judges responsibilities

Lots of talk on movement--western driving class (with pictures) modern movement, conformation and movement etc

Legal and illegal bits

How to pin large classes

What counts as disqualification during driving class

Info on type (miniature, foundation, classic, modern pleasure, modern)

How judges are disciplined, what happens if a complaint is filed etc

I am sure I am leaving a lot out as its late and I just got off work

I think they did a great job of giving us a ton of information in a limited time. I know one judge from California said he would be late to his plane just to hear the rest of what Amber had to say. And all of the other speakers also did a wonderful job. I have to say Mr McCabe is such a compelling speaker and you can tell everything he does is because of his love of horses. And Jim B is always so knowledgeable and always right on the mark with his thoughts etc.

It was really hard for me to get time off work to attend this but I am so glad I did it. And I would definitely do it again!

I would like to think that the miniature horse judges in general should be looking to place a smaller horse over the larger horse when possible. Is it always true? No, but there are some excellent examples of Miniature Horses that IMO meet the criteria for a Miniature that are being overlooked because another has 2 or 3 inches of leg, allowing for better movement, etc. I just see a lot of pony influence in the miniatures over the last few years, and don't want to see the miniature horse become a subset of the Shetland pony, and if the larger horse is ALWAYS being chosen first, the miniature horse may cease to exist as we know it today. Both are beautiful equines, but unique.

I think the rule book says "if everything else is equal the win should go to the smaller horse" (paraphrasing) It would truly be a rare day to have 2 totally equal horses before a judge. A judge will always find something they like better on say horse A over horse B. So imo that rule would rarely be invoked. I have and do show both under and over division. Everyone always wants to have the tallest horse in the class. Just the way it is. For example if I am showing in 30-34" class Im hoping to have a horse as close to 34 as possible. Now I have shown plenty in B division that hit 36 and stopped. Sometimes they win and sometimes they get beat by a 38" horse. Even in talking to AMHA breeders they are always trying to have the tallest horse in the class they are showing in. I think we have probably all heard people say that!

As far as miniatures ever being extinct I just dont think we ever have to worry about that. The number of registered miniatures far out numbers registered shetlands. There will always be plenty of breeders out there breeding for the smaller miniatures and I salute them for their efforts! I do believe it is harder to breed a well conformed 30" mini!

 

[hafpints]

Even in talking to AMHA breeders they are always trying to have the tallest horse in the class they are showing in.

I agree with this, but that is because that is what they see winning so that is what they think they have to produce and purchase. I have been to both A & R shows and there are some minis I have no clue how they got them to measure under 34". I think that should be looked into also.

April

 

[susanne]

kaykay, You've listed the outline of what sounds like a great clinic -- could you perhaps fill in the meat of some of the topics you mentioned? For example, how DO they pin a large class, and what did they have to say about movement in the different driving classes? What did they suggest for encouraging youth?

As for size over conformation, I think many of the problems with the breed could have been avoided if early breeders had valued conformation FIRST and downsizing second. Today we have many gorgeous, well-proportioned tinies, but there are still far too many that are essentially bigger minis with stubby legs. A shorter mini with incorrect proportions (even if otherwise stunning) should never win over a true "full-sized horse in miniature," even if it is tallest in its height division.

 

[kaykay]

Some of this is hard to explain in type but I will try.

On the topic of youth---

Some felt judges were maybe being too hard on youth giving them too much critique once the class is pinned. You know like saying "you did this wrong and this wrong" It would be better to give them maybe 2 things they did well and one thing to improve on. He told the story of a new youth that got really critiqued by a judge his first time showing and then never showed again. We NEVER want that! I think we have to remember they are children not little adults. I think this is especially true in youth showmanship. I know when Kyle showed in it some judges would point out every single thing he did wrong. Kyle refused to show in showmanship last year LOL. Showmanship has so many little details and there is a lot to remember. I tried to really encourage Kyle to show in it as there are very few youth boys showing in it.

On movement they discussed the difference in the way a miniature moves in country pleasure vs how a classic might move etc. and went real in depth for the new western class as I guess there had been some judging confusion on that one. They also discussed the differences in say classic country pleasure vs modern pleasure. Also ways that exhibitors try to get the judges attention in driving class. If you are cutting corners and driving close to the judge to show your horse you are getting the WRONG attention. Dont do it. Also how to keep yourself safe as a judge during driving class. Also went over the rules for having headers and what a header should do, which I totally agree with. I have seen way too many headers stand way too far back. If something happens they cant get there in time. Or headers not paying attention etc. Also I was not aware that it is okay for a horse to take one step forward before they back. I guess some judges thought that was a DQ and it isnt. They can take that one step to get themselves straight and then the 2 steps back. Also discussed the use of time outs during driving and how many a person can do and cant do.

On large classes

The advice was not to micro judge and get bogged down by tiny details. If a judge has a class of 40 horses you dont have hours to judge it. We have all heard people complain of judges taking too long to place a class. In the case of these large classes that walk in is so important as that is the first impression the judge has of your horse and they see a lot just in that walk into to the ring. I think a lot of people dont realize the judge is taking in the total impression of your horse, if it tracks straight, how the legs look, expression on the head etc. Usually a judges first impression of that walk in (especially in a large class) is going to dictate how they pin the class. The judge will still walk the line and look at every horse but they are going to use those impressions from the walk into the arena. So important!