Question for QH people..pic attached.

[StarRidgeAcres]

Question for experienced QH people. I am reading this thread of stories with interest since it's happening in a small town near where I live. Obviously, the outrage is over the stolen funds, but I can't help but be somewhat shocked by the pictures of her horses (her website has since been taken down). Is this what QH look like now??? It doesn't look real to me. The horse looks like a body builder. Don't mean to offend anyone, it's just been shocking to me to see all the pics and video. Just wondering is this is the new standard. Thanks!



http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/18/11265755-citys-finance-chief-accused-of-looting-30-million-lifestyle-included-21-million-motorhome?lite

 

[Jill]

Looks like a halter QH to me

 

[bevann]

I'm not a QH person, but we have MAJOR QH shows at our state fairgrounds about 9 miles from my farm.I often go to hang out&visit my friends.YUUP,that's the look.Weird isn't it?They don't look much like that in performance classes-that'w where the pencil pushers are with noses almost on the ground.I bet the old timers QH people would cringe if they saw these animals who are supposed to be great cattle working horses.There are some lines out there that can still work.It really is a great breed.If someone asks me about a breed to start a kid on, my answer is always QH.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Thanks for the replies ladies. My first thought, after "god, what is that???" was "how can that horse work?" Seems like the opposite of the MH halter horse where we've almost gotten to such a fine boned, thin bodied animal that I wonder how it can pull a cart to the other extreme of a horse (QH) that looks like Mr Universe. It's just weird to me...both extremes that is.

My neighbor across the street from our current place (SUPER nice people that I love dearly) have 4 QHs. They all are more muscled than I think looks normal, but one gelding looks unreal to me. The first time we saw him we were shocked. After we left Robert asked me what kind of horse it was and do they all look so freaky. I told him I didn't think they all looked like that and now I realize I'm probably wrong, but I also said I thought the horse was being given a steroid or something to increase his muscle. I can't imagine you get that naturally, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Riverrose28]

Sad isn't it! We show at the local 4-H shows that are open, and several QH breeders also show. I was talking to another old timer last year about how straight the legs were on some of the halter horses, I notice them sort of twisting when they walked, and they were not being shown in performance classes, he said Yep that's how their breeding the halter horses now, and they can't even lope cause the hind end is ruined. I was shocked. And I agree with Bev. that in Western Pleasure the heads are so low I don't know how the rider can stay on top. don't get me wrong there are still some in the ring that look like the old bulldog type that can work, but they are few and far between.

 

[Jill]

The halter horses at that level are JUST halter horses. I think they have severe issues down the road from being so bulked up, and so stalled up, at such young ages.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

The halter horses at that level are JUST halter horses. I think they have severe issues down the road from being so bulked up, and so stalled up, at such young ages.

Jill, my neighbors' horses don't EVER get outside! EVER! They are stalled 24/7, with each getting a daily round penning (inside, no sunlight) for 20 or so mins. In the 18 months we've lived there, I've seen ONE horse outside for about 30 mins when they were having a wiring problem in the barn and needed to work in his/her stall. That horse ran around like it was crazy. I really adore these people, but wish they let their horses out in the sunshine and got more fresh air.

Year-round, their horses have slick, shiny coats and are under lights in the winter months to, I guess, trick their bodies into thinking it's really summer. They don't even keep the barn doors open evenings in this nice weather. They want to keep the temp in a certain range.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Wow, where have you been? lol halter horses have looked like that for decades Aren't they ugly?

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Oh boy, it's going to be hard to comment on just the horses here! Dixon - the town she fleeced - is just the next town over from us, though the Meri-J Ranch is actually located a little north on the border of Illinois/Wisconsin. Aaanyway, the Quarter Horses have been headed in that direction for a long, long time. I'm hardly an expert, but we dabbled in QHs for a few years, did very well at the open shows, even had a really nice state futurity mare, but just couldn't commit to doing what had to be done to win in association halter, and that was ten years ago. In all fairness, most QHs don't hit the ground looking like they do at shows. Here's a video of some of Rita's broodmares:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZD27oe5IgM

It's interesting to note that the most built-up horse in the video (appears around 0:52) is also the only visibly lame one. Like Jill mentioned, they get that extra-muscly look from extreme sweating and almost 24/7 stalling (though genetics obviously contribute). I have seen some horses successfully transition from halter into performance, but the halter division has become so specialized with the fine legs and extreme musculature that yeah, most of them really don't have the necessary range of motion. We actually had an excellent HUS breeder just a few minutes from us for years, and while I'm not saying that division is perfect either, it's hard to believe they were the same breed. I hope some day the top levels make a turn-around and come back to the hardier, more well-rounded style. In the meantime, I think the average QH owner is still choosing that, as I see hundreds of classic QHs at the open shows every year. Maybe we'll get lucky and someone that does show AQHA will come on here and explain the halter mentality.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

That's not exactly true.... at all

You could argue that halter QH's and performance QH's are two different breeds.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Want to clarify which part of my post isn't true Nathan? I'm not good at translating emoticons.

Just wanted to add too that I think the growing popularity of the Performance Halter classes is a good sign. This page has a video showing one of Rita's stallions winning the championship in Performance Halter.

http://www.aqha.com/Showing/Select-World/Classes/Performance-Halter-Stallions.aspx

He's still a big boy, but this class is designed to encourage exhibitors to condition their QHs for form to function.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Extra muscly doesn't come from sweating.... it comes from genetics (HYPP and other muscle disorders, selectively chosen and/or mutated) and work. When I worked on a halter farm (in the breeding shed, not the show barn) they worked them every day, usually ponying or walking on an automatic walker. The HYPP causes almost constant muscle tremors, which mimics exercise. The double muscling is similar to what's being selectively bred for in some breeds of super-cows. Like you said, most halter horses are unridable, both from a ROM pov, and a "the saddle won't fit" pov. Performance halter is a relatively new thing, where the horse has to compete at halter, plus a riding division (or two? I can't recall). They are much more trim, obviously, so they can wear a saddle and get out of their own way. And of course HYPP H/H isn't allowed to register anymore (I don't think). But they've bred them to the point they can be N/N and still look like they have HYPP. This is a decade's old "sport"... one I never understood. To me they are abominations, not beautiful QH's are known for huge butts and kind attitudes, halter horses are so pent up I've known several stallions who have killed people before coming to me. My least favorite "breed" to work with.

 

[circlesinthesand]

I showed halter way back when I was young, I also showed Western Pleasure (IMO, another section that totally destroys the breed) To those of us who have always valued performance QH's they are a black mark on a breed we know and love so well. Nathan is right, they're almost separate breeds entirely. These 'horses' and I use that term lightly are NOT what makes a QH in any shape or form. No one I know even shows QH shows anymore, down here there aren't many incentives to show and maybe like 3 shows in easy driving distance per year. If they do they only haul for a specific event, like a team penning. In my world, we all do either NCHA, NRHA, NRCHA or Ranch/Stock horse shows, rodeos or even open shows as an alternative. I didn't even register one of my geldings. Why bother? He's a 'best of' product of generations of breeding, a grandson of my heart horse, and is never ever going to be sold...ever. He's what a real QH should be and I didn't even bother with the paperwork and fees. And I doubt I'll ever bother with an AQHA show again, it's already been about 15 years since my last one and about 10 since I went to watch one, though the internet tells me nothing has improved, in fact it looks worse now than ever, certainly nothing to draw me back. Now that I'm not even breeding anymore I've let my membership lapse. AQHA hasn't done anything for me in years, nothing but provide papers on my colts...that's it. I'd rather toss my money at organizations that do support the same kind of horse I value and all those tend to be non-breed specific organizations dominated by real QH's and since AQHA deemed the white rule invalid what's the difference between a QH and a paint (the second most popular breed we see) so...there it is. I'm an NRHA member, sometimes an NCHA member etc. but not an AQHA member.

so I don't call myself a QH person any more, I call myself a Reiner who dabbles in cow work.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Nathan - I gave my nod to genetics, but we're going to have to agree to disagree if you're saying those horses aren't extensively sweated and stalled. I'm not saying you didn't see what you saw, but a hot walker seems counter-intuitive to halter conditioning as the circling would promote longer, leaner muscles. AQHA started blocking H/H in 2007, but I do believe H/N is still registerable. I had an Impressive bred mare that was N/N, and she was indeed a different kind of horse (both physically and mentally). Performance Halter also came about in 2007, but the rules get tweaked every year. Initially, a horse only had to have a ROM in a performance division in order to compete, but now they are also requiring that the horses continue to earn performance points in the current season in order to qualify for the division at World. It's not turning the tide yet but I do think it's a step in the right direction. I've known and ridden too many good Quarter Horses to discount the breed entirely and am always hopeful the more rational general consensus will win out over the extremes that are still being promoted by the minority.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I was a fan of the QH beginning back in the mid-50s--only about 14 years after the AQHA was formed--and words cannot adequately express how sick and sad it makes me to see what has been done to the breed.

The first horse I ever bred, foaled in '57, was out of a 'grade' QH mare (who could have herself been registered, but my parents weren't willing to come up w/$200 for their 15 YO horse-nut of a kid...with research, I discovered the 14 h.1/2" mare's amazing bloodlines)...and sired by a blue roan grandson of King P-234(who I am aware, is now 'suspect' in the incidence of HERDA, via Zantanon, his(supposed)sire.) The resulting strawberry roan filly foal grew up to be a horseman's dream of conformation, correctness, and athleticism.She was first registered in the 'old' AQHA Appendix(as it existed then; its requirements have changed several times over the years); then when she was 3,those requirements indeed changed, and she ended up Permanent registered as "Misty Question".

I continued to own and ride QHs until I began owning Paints in the early '70s. I'd always loved the patterning, and yes, APHA horses were 'simply' colored QHs. IMO, the AQHA was foolish to START WITH to disallow horses w/ paint markings. I mean, how 'hidebound' can you BE?? Given the times, I'm not at all surprised that they were forced to 'give up' their meritless prejudices against paint/pinto spotting!I quit the AQHA/APHA show ring about 25 years ago when 'peanut rolling' became popular...no way in Heck was I going to make a horse 'go' like a whipped dog. I was 'there' when the NRHA was BEGUN, and did a bit of that back when, as I was ALWAYS an 'all-around' horse lover...not interested in a different horse for every event.

For a time I worked at QH shows in this area, but quit when I couldn't STAND that I could PASS a horse TROTTING in the arena in a show while strolling down the aisle...the snail-like gaits, not to mention the 4 beating 'lope' and the pitiful, sad, 'beaten' look of the horses...what about THAT is a "PLEASURE" to horse OR rider???(and, it has only gotten WORSE; the head may be a tiny bit higher again, but the way the horses are made to travel....STILL PITIFUL...)

That was years ago. I haven't let myself go to a stock horse breed show in years, but have seen enough during reading, and watching TV, in recent times to be utterly HORRIFIED at how much WORSE things have become. 'Halter' horses look like beef being readied for slaughter, and would be 'useful' about only FOR that; they can't MOVE!Certain 'performance' events are now SO 'patterned', and the horses clearly intimidated into a FEAR of EVER raising their head even the slightest...that the horse is afraid to simply walk forward.

To me, what is saddest, sickest of ALL, is that this was done as a CONSCIOUS choice by many breeders and trainers. What has been done to a once-noble breed(and I know, the QH is NOT the only breed this has happened to)is the worst example I can think of to prove that you should be careful what you 'try' for; you may get it.

Let me add...thank goodness, the performance-event breeders,such as those that like cutting horses, roping horses, 'real' multi-skilled horses, still produce many that are 'recognizable' more-like-original, QHs...smaller, quicker, actually athletic, and with that unbeatable disposition the 'real' QH was largely known for. They have FEET that can actually support their body size, they aren't 'muscle-bound', they have brains. NOW, if they would just let them mature before asking so much of them, if they would not mistreat them under the guise of 'training'.....well, you get my drift.

I will ALWAYS love a horse that personifies what the QH was 'supposed' to be.

(Look at one of the 'better' photos of Peter McCue, Old Fred, Oklahoma Star, just for a few examples.)NO post-straight pasterns/hocks, teeny feet, over-bulked 'meat animals' there. HOW CAN HUMANS BE SO STUPID??????

Margo

 

[~Dan]

When I first saw this picture in the origional post, I thought, "Wow, that horse looks like a beef steer ". That is rather disgusting if you ask me. Poor horses. My cousin is involved in QHs, and while they don't have any super-muscked halter horses, they so have wp/hp horses in their barn. They are Appendix QHs, and are so lenky and seem to lack muscle (at least my cousin's gelding) is less muscled than my neighbors 30 year old TB!! Pitiful, if you asl me.

Dan.

 

[wildoak]

I rode & showed QHs too, at mostly a local level. We used to go to QH World show every year just to watch & shop lol, and I remember being blown away the first time I sat and watched a halter class at that level. We are talking at least 15 years ago, and even then they could hardly trot across the arena. I love the Performance Halter idea, makes so much sense to halter a horse who is actually correct and can do something besides stand up. Most of what I rode was old school - Poco Bueno, Skipper W... and solid little using horses.

Jan

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

My appendix has the best of both

Great mind, good muscle, lean body.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I can tell by reading these posts that many feel passionate about this and, rightfully so, are saddened at what has happened to a breed they love. I certainly didn't mean to "start" anything. I was just shocked by the look of what I saw. I too thought the horse pictured looked more like a bovine than an equine. Sad.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Parmela, I don't think you 'started' anything but a good intense discussion. If we do not talk about these issues, how will things EVER improve?

Jan, I saw Skipper W. in his advanced years, at Hank Wiescamp's in Alamosa. The only instructor I ever really had was a QH man, carded judge, teacher of riders(NOT a 'horse trainer', but one who taught us how to train and properly ride our own) and a friend of Wiescamp's, and a bunch of us took a 'field trip' up; got to see the legendary old stallion and several of his offspring. It was a memorable experience.

In college, my barrel/poles horse was a handy little buckskin gelding who'd been first trained for cutting. I trained him myself, and we won both $ and buckles; he was actually best at pole bending, and a whiz at reining. He was by Dusters Wings, by Starduster by Oklahoma Star, and out of a Peter McCue-bred mare, and he was very much the kind of horse you mention....a 'solid little using horse'.

It is truly beyond my comprehension that ANYONE could think that the QH has been 'improved' by the ways so many of them have been bred in the years since I became involved with the breed. It seems to me an object lesson in how NOT to approach the breeding of horses.

Margo