measuring

[rabbitsfizz]

Honestly I'm with Vertical (who is actually probably Spinning at the moment!!

: ) on this one!!

I have never had any problem finding any horses withers, nor have we ever, as a Society, ever had any problem finding a person to measure who can find the withers.

The withers are, unlike the "last hair of the mane" an immovable feast- they are in exactly the same place on every horse ever born and are not difficult to find.

Oh sure some horses have slightly higher withers than others but, fat or thin, the withers are the withers.

If you look at a skeleton of a horse you will see exactly what I mean.

It does make a difference to the height of the horse- I measured a two inch difference on a US Import colt- that was the most I have ever measured as difference but it makes at least one inch difference on all my horses (when I measure at home I measure both ways for my own entertainment)

We have considered giving year long certificates to mature animals but, at the moment, we are in a bit of a hiatus, Committee wise, so it will not happen this year.

We use fixed height sticks- there is no point to measuring the height of each horse, it merely has to be under the limit for each class- and use a sliding stick if there is a query.

Shane if you have trouble getting sticks try Norman Taylor, at Gilsland Wells in Scotland.

He always has them for £25.00- again, no trouble getting them and not expensive- so, I am not sure what the problem is.

We, as a Society, have found that Vets are really pointless in measuring, a lot do not know how to measure accurately as it is very rarely part of their job.

 

[Flyte200]

Yes bronskiman i just started this thread just wondering what is the correct way to measure a miniature?

Because ive heard of so many different ways and want to know which is the most correct...

I dont agree with measuring at the last hair of the mane because people like this in my opinion are trying to get there horses alot smaller than they actually are....ONLY MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.........Im sure more people on here would agree... :bgrin

 

[as if by magic 2]

It's dosen't matter, you're in Ireland so it's to the wither, end of. You don't get a choice.

More to the point there is so few shows actually affiliated here in the north, you aren't oblidged to have your horse measured as there is no society rules to follow, even tho it states it most of the show schedules, affiliation was not purchased in '06 and the same print has been used from '05..so no horses are measured. Even if there is a doubt, again no rules so no objections can be made or upheld. Until it gets sorted out.

 

[irishmini]

i was just offered a " life measured" graded showjumper for my son... 148cm, ( 14.2hh) for us old foggies....when i looked at it, it was at least 3 ins bigger than that, this horse has competed for years as a 14.2, so it happens in other equestrian sports too. i wonder do they have debates on forums.

i have seen hooves being taken down very close and thin shoes been put on showjumpers to reduce hieght by an inch or two.....there are probably cheats for minis too!!!! i'll bet!!

 

[Flyte200]

well down south at shows we measure our horses to see if they are section A or section B so we can divide the classes and to improve our breeding standards here to try and produce the best miniature horses in ireland with no leg faults and dwarfism etc......

So when we get our passports we wont have to be measuring the horses every time they come to a show therefore it will be alot easier to produce passports and i will be alot lot easier...

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Wow- that's great Flyte- in one go you have solved a problem that has been ripping the Miniature Horse World apart all over the world since the breed began.

Well done

:

 

[as if by magic 2]

with the exception of one show, we only have classes for mini's under 34" at maturity, they are re-measured,by a vet, in the case of a breeding stallion, when they are 4. This is stamped on their papers for life. Also as we are a little further down the line in showing and breeding, at a guess the 'tallest' shown stallion 4 years and over would be 32", tallest mare 33". Never had any doubt that any horses I show against are over height. Unfortunately measuring a mini A orB will not control breeding faults or dwarfism, in fact no-one I know would breed for such a thing. Many dwarf foals just 'appear' with no rhyme or reason, possibly the same mating has been done many times previously with the same sire and dam.

All our horses have passports, but the heights recorded in the temp passports, could be taken at any stage up to animal is a yearling. So that wouldn't be relevant. But all horses are reg with a society, and most of the height guidelines are the same. The majority are not out to break rules, given measuring is normally done in very primative surroundings, i.e a recently cut silage field. I think it would be very difficult, to tell someone who's mini is at the height, which happens especially with yearlings, that they can't enter a class. When you can't give them an accurate measurement, in that said field, with a person who has been handed a measuring stick who can't find the withers or knows where they are ! Believe me that said yearling proably won't be more than 1" taller the next year or for the rest of it's life ! I have seen it happen.

 

[Flyte200]

Rabbitsfizz why do you find sarcasm necessary?????????

You were unnecessairly sarcastic to me im only 18 and i dont expect to be replied to with sarcasm on this forum... :bgrin

Not fighting with you just want to know?????// :bgrin

 

[BRONSKIMAN]

Good grief! It's just not all that complicated!!!!!!!!! :lol: You don't have to follow anything. YOU CAN SEE THIS! I have to laugh as there is nothing like making a mountain out of a molehill.........

Only asking!! Sorry!! The measurer is also a judge of irish cobs so its seemed she would know and I`m no expert so thought I would ask.

Good grief! It's just not all that complicated!!!!!!!!! :lol: You don't have to follow anything. YOU CAN SEE THIS! I have to laugh as there is nothing like making a mountain out of a molehill.........

Only asking!! Sorry!! The measurer is also a judge of irish cobs so its seemed she would know and I`m no expert so thought I would ask.

 

[as if by magic 2]

I'm quite pleased you haven't been sarcastic to me Flythe. Which is normally all I get from you. I'm twice your age, respect works both ways.

 

[user 488]

Only asking!! Sorry!! The measurer is also a judge of irish cobs so its seemed she would know and I`m no expert so thought I would ask

Bronski.....I understand what you were saying and I was not directing my comment at you. This so called person who was measuring is supposed to be a knowledgeable person I take? Yes? Well then, there is no secret formula to this. A withers is a withers.......I was directing my comment at people who are hired to do a job but are clueless as to what they are doing. I get angry when I hear that a person is supposed to measuring horses but has to go into some crazy mathematical equation to find the withers. It's just absurd.

There are horse people and then there are people who have horses! If it is your job to measure.....be it withers OR mane hairs......KNOW YOUR JOB!

 

[Minimor]

Thank you rabbitsfizz, I was trying to figure out how measuring would eliminate the problem of short legs, dwarfism or anything else. Good thing I didn't have a mouthful of ice tea just when I read your post, I'd have had to clean up my computer after that.

Sorry flyte, I didn't see anything sarcastic in her reply, just a tongue in cheek response to your overly simplistic view of what measuring accomplishes. Lighten up eh? I'd actually been wondering if your post wasn't intended to convey a jab at others?

 

[Hosscrazy]

Please. Let's keep this friendly or we're going to close this thread.

Thank you,

Liz R.

 

[mistyrose]

Having just taken a measuring clinic, I can tell you that there is more to it than you might suppose. If the level is on the arm, it can still show level if the stick is tilted making it measure shorter. If the level is on the top of the stick, the arm itself can be tilted. the ideal would be a measuring stick with a level both on the stick and arm. The height measured with the arm close to the stick on the animal can be very different than the measurement where the part of the arm on the animal is near the far end. Don't think so, go out and put a tape on the stick different ways.

If you are measuring in an uneven location, the measurement can change from side to side.

The lengths people in 4H went to to have a horse measure 14.2 to show in the pony division showed me that it doesn't matter if you are measuring at the withers or the last hair of the mane. People will find ways to try to get a close horse to measure in. Whether it is trimming hooves to close or teaching a horse to scrunch down when the stick comes close. BTW we don't just measure to see if they are at or under the limit for their age division because we have divisions within the age division like 28 + under etc.

Nice to see its not just us in the americas that bicker back and forth with each other.

 

[Lauralee]

I don't know how true this is or not BUT it was funny to me:

I was told that a group of AMHA officials (?directors) were asked to each measure a TABLE which was exactly 34" in height. Every single measurement was different and there was a significant variance between the heights.

A STATIONARY TABLE! :bgrin

 

[BRONSKIMAN]

I don't know how true this is or not BUT it was funny to me:

I was told that a group of AMHA officials (?directors) were asked to each measure a TABLE which was exactly 34" in height. Every single measurement was different and there was a significant variance between the heights.

A STATIONARY TABLE! :bgrin

:lol: :lol: Thats amazing!!! What a good way to practice getting it right though!!!

I found this info when I went searching now my interest is aroused! :bgrin

(Q) A stick is held upright next to its withers (top of shoulder blade)(Q)

(Q) from the highest point of his withers to the ground (Q)

so does this mean that if you follow the line of the shoulder to the neck that is the withers? I know where it is but at which EXACT point do you measure as the width of the stick is not much?? It would be important I guess if it makes the difference between being put in one class or another.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

! The only thing more ridiculous is the fact that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to measure at the last mane hairs either. But it sure seems to be a constant problem as "some" people can't seem to figure it out...........

:

: :new_shocked: Something tells me that people cannot be that dumb :lol: But yet every year we all hear about the measuring dilemmas at the shows .

Unfortunately cheaters are going to TRY to cheat no matter what. But measuring at the withers is bone structure and it is really hard to argue about where those withers are.

Carol

While I agree I also have to say that some of the dilemmas at the shows are simply sour grapes from those that dont want to show against a winning horse.

It is more then possible for a horse ot measure differently by .25-.50 of an inch with different people measuring them and that small difference can move the horse up or down a class doesnt change the fact that it could be perfectly legit the horse measured that way by the steward with no intent for cheating going on

:

 

[disneyhorse]

To me, it doesn't matter HOW the horses are measured at a show, as long as it's consistent. And really, a nice horse is a nice horse whether or not it's in the taller class or the shorter class! There are always going to be things that a novice cannot do as well as someone more experienced that will give the more experienced person an "edge" be it body clipping, setting up for halter, getting more collection while driving, or measuring in! And people will ALWAYS use any "excuse" to complain... "the steward measured my horse too tall to be competitive in the height range of class".

:

Andrea

 

[horsefeather]

Interesting thread! OK, let me ask youall a question. You say it's easy to measure from the top of the withers...as the withers are easy to find. While I agree, (as the rule book states "...measuring device must be placed over the highest point of the withers...) {Page 99 of 2005 rulebook] When I look at the drawing in the rule book, it shows exactly where the withers are. I do not have a problem measuring from the withers (I am, by the way, a steward). However, I was 'taught' and have witnessed many stewards measuring about an inch above the withers (there is a little dip where the withers 'hook' on??) and if the pony is measured in that spot, you can 'shorten' him by 1 to 1 1/2 inches.

A steward must purchase their 'stick' from the AMHR office. After using mine at a couple of shows, my hubby put a small, round 'thingy' on the top which tells me if I have the stick straight up and down. It sure helps. P.S. Don't forget, some of these little fellas squirm so much it's almost impossible to get an EXACT measurment.

As far as the 'last mane hair' I agree it is not that easy and I can get a slight difference in height every time I measure the same horse. MOST of the time I can tell the mane from the body hair, but not always, so I use my best judgement and measure where I 'think' the mane stops. I did measure one mini that had 'mane' hair half way down her back. I asked the owner (with a smile

: ) you don't REALLY think her mane goes down that far, do you?

Pam

 

[as if by magic 2]

I bet the answer was yes !! of course her horses mane went down that far !!

Obviously reading this thread, you get measured prior each show, and is it acceptable (?) that you can swing from week to week from under 34" to over 34" depending how the steward measures ?

If that was the case, and a horse measured out, 99% time, that horses show day is over. as we don't have classes for 'B' at every show, and most want to breed under 34" anyway.

But is there a problem if the horse that measured over last week is measured under this week. Is this what happens, I know you can loose a bit of condition, hoof trimming etc.. but is this a common thing ?

:

or is that taking it to an extreme. How do you feel, when someone is incompetent (sorry it's 3am here !) when measuring, can you complain ? Or is the stewards judge final ?