measuring

[Flyte200]

I wanted to know if anyone on here measures there horses at the withers???????

I have seen all mini's been measured at the withers i was wondering what is the correct way to do it..

 

[chandab]

Minis here in the States (possibly Canada too) are all measured at the last hair of their mane.

 

[Minimor]

Yes, Canada too measures at the last mane hair. We follow AMHR/AMHA rules, so that is how we measure.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Miniature Horses in England are measured as all other breeds of horse- to the withers.

I think, personally, that attempting to measure any other way is crazy- it gets so complicated trying to work out where the last hair of the mane is, and arguing with smart Alec's who think they can grow a line of hair to the dip of the back and get measured there!!!

:

So- the withers are always in the same place on all horses, and are the accepted place to measure- what is the rationale behind measuring to the last hair of the mane- apart from the fact that in some cases it can knock two inches off the horses height????

:

 

[Sandee]

Miniature Horses in England are measured as all other breeds of horse- to the withers.

I think, personally, that attempting to measure any other way is crazy- it gets so complicated trying to work out where the last hair of the mane is, and arguing with smart Alec's who think they can grow a line of hair to the dip of the back and get measured there!!!

:

So- the withers are always in the same place on all horses, and are the accepted place to measure- what is the rationale behind measuring to the last hair of the mane- apart from the fact that in some cases it can knock two inches off the horses height????

:

Nearly every ring steward over here will argue that they can "tell" exactly where the last hair if the mane is. They say they can feel the difference and a friend of mine was even told that she cut some of the mane off. I won't aruge the point; just telling it like it is here.

 

[BRONSKIMAN]

I dont think Flyte was asking about withers versus mane hair, it seemed to be a question about how to do it properly - the measuring itself?? I could be wrong, Flyte??

 

[Reble]

I wanted to know if anyone on here measures there horses at the withers???????

I have seen all mini's been measured at the withers i was wondering what is the correct way to do it..

Our shows for miniature horses in Ontario are measured from the last hair on their manes.

With the correct measureing stick that should have a level on it.

Hope this helps.

 

[Margo_C-T]

It is certainly true that according to the rulebooks of both AMHA and AMHR, American miniature horses are to be measured for height at the last hairs of the mane, NOT at the top of the withers(as horses of all sizes are measured elsewhere around the world....) If indeed the question was only about "how"to properly measure: In either case, for the measurement to be as accurate as possible, the horse must be standing square and in a 'natural' posture-meaning the head/neck not held up nor down-on a provably LEVEL surface. For a withers measurement, the crossbar of a rigid,non-bending measuring 'stick' should be placed on the highest point of the withers(since the withers is a bony 'process', this is not hard to determine, and when level, the measurement read. For a 'last hairs of the mane'-which means, where the last hair emerges from the skin, not where the tip of the last hair reaches to!-measurement, the same basic set up applies, then the crossbar should be placed over the last hairs, and when determined level, the measurement read. Even if(as I say below), you are conscientious in your procedure, however, the 'last hair' measurement is needlessly subjective-'pretending' that a horse is smaller than it is byaccepted height measurement standards is silly, to put it kindly--yet it continues(heavy sigh...)

I study this a lot; I believe that it IS possible, with due care, to determine the 'last hairs' of the mane, even if a strip of body hair has been left(which is common procedure--some aren't skillful enough at clipping, or won't take the necessary time/care, to clip' right up to' the ending of the mane, others are very deliberately trying to 'confuse the issue', to put it politely....)-but, your fingers and your eyes, if you wish them to, will tell you which is which. I agree with rabbitsfizz on EVERY point in her post re: wither VS 'last hair of the mane' measurement---except, on miniature horses, I see no way it would EVER "knock two inches off of the height"! With most minis, even 'maximum' R horses, the maximum difference is likely to be around ONE inch-many will be even less than that, a FEW will be more, perhaps rarely up to 1 1/2"-and that would take a horse with PROMINENT withers combined with a mane that extends further down the back than most!!

It is my opinion that the American miniature horse breed registries don't come off well in the eyes of the rest of the horse world for their continued insistence on the 'last hair' measurement; unfortunately, the pretense seems well-entrenched in the power structure, so that there seems little chance of changing the measuring procedure to match that of the ENTIRE REST OF THE HORSE WORLD....! (So what if my now-34" horse is in truth a 34 3/4" horse? It would be relatively simple to alter the Bylaws to reflect the most common difference -the horses wouldn't "BE" one bit bigger!!)

Margo

 

[shane]

Margo i thought you explained it beautifully!!!!

even over here, we are still a bit argumentative as to where the top of the withers is lol, so i can sympathize with the measuring over there at the last hairs on the mane must be hard to determine when theres 20 horses or so waiting to be measured, i agree that shows that measure need to Carry a flat board as it often done over here on grass, which can lead to all sorts of problems, i really dont mind which way its done as mine can both walk under the measuring stick at 34 lol :bgrin is there any country that has a stamp or such on there passport thats reads that a horse over say five will have a life height verification, so as they dont need to be repeatedly measured?

 

[user 488]

It is my opinion that the American miniature horse breed registries don't come off well in the eyes of the rest of the horse world for their continued insistence on the 'last hair' measurement; unfortunately, the pretense seems well-entrenched in the power structure, so that there seems little chance of changing the measuring procedure to match that of the ENTIRE REST OF THE HORSE WORLD....! (So what if my now-34" horse is in truth a 34 3/4" horse? It would be relatively simple to alter the Bylaws to reflect the most common difference -the horses wouldn't "BE" one bit bigger!!)

Margo

Well said Margo, as usual. Not much to add. I find the mane hair thing ridiculous! The only thing more ridiculous is the fact that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to measure at the last mane hairs either. But it sure seems to be a constant problem as "some" people can't seem to figure it out...........

:

: :new_shocked: Something tells me that people cannot be that dumb :lol: But yet every year we all hear about the measuring dilemmas at the shows .

Unfortunately cheaters are going to TRY to cheat no matter what. But measuring at the withers is bone structure and it is really hard to argue about where those withers are.

Carol

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have had, and have measured , many horses where the last hair of the mane makes them up to 2" smaller than the withers.

I have never had any problem finding the withers of a horses- it does not even take practise, it is self evident, the withers are, as Margo has said, a bony structure, there is no problem and no argument as to what they are, or where they are, they are the same on every breed of horse.

For this reason in Europe, we measure our Miniature Horses in the same way as we measure every other breed of horse.

It has caused a bit of a problem with some US Imported horses being measured out, in the beginning, but most breeders who export are now au fait with the difference and take pains to make sure their horses measure in.

Since the AMHA is never likely to accept horses over 34" I cannot see them ever changing the way horses are measured- I would love to know why the measuring was ever started this way though???

 

[user 488]

Margo i thought you explained it beautifully!!!!

even over here, we are still a bit argumentative as to where the top of the withers is lol, ?

Well Shane......and I'll be blunt (imagine that!) There is no arguement as to where the top of the withers is. It is not a subjective thing like mane hairs at all. The top of the withers is the highest point where the withers tie into the base of the neck. It is not only easily seen....it is VERY easily felt . Once you understand what you are looking for there will never be anything to argue about. To me the only person that could argue is one that is not educated. Again, you can't fudge bone structure.

 

[Jill]

I read in one of the mini books, the one by Barbara Naviaux I think, that the way we measure from the last hair of the main was a compromise.

One group wanted to measure from the top of the withers, and another wanted to measure from the middle of the back!!!!!!!

Can you imagine???? Just THINK of all those "little" sway backed minis we'd have around if that group of people got there way -- CRAZY!

 

[BRONSKIMAN]

I was at a show recently and the person measuring said the way to find the top of the withers was to follow the shoulder line but then it kind of looked like she was measuring half way up the neck! (slight exageration! :lol: ) Has anyone heard that before? Interesting subject.

 

[user 488]

Good grief! It's just not all that complicated!!!!!!!!! :lol: You don't have to follow anything. YOU CAN SEE THIS! I have to laugh as there is nothing like making a mountain out of a molehill.........

 

[shane]

youd never believe what can and does happen at some of the shows over here though, somtimes we have people who measure our horses who are helpers that maybe only have owned minis for a short time no bodys fault its just that the shows are grateful for any help they can get i suppose, we dont always have people that know where the withers are

: as jill said, i would hate to have the responsiblity, i just hope we get to an understanding at the shows to stop disputes and such happening as it leaves a sore note with the people in question that have maybe always thought there horse was a certain height , for then to disscover embarrasingly that there horse is over height which i heard just happened recently at a show were the girl had been placed a lot of times with her section "a" only to discover it was in fact a section "b", no ones fault in fact it costs a fortune for us to get mini measuring sticks lol, i think i paid $80 for one only this year to keep track of mine, :bgrin this is a very interesting thread

ive always thought the withers to be at the base of the neck were the arch of bone is?}ive been measuring like that for years lol, ive never had an argument with anyone thank god about the height of mine, but it looks like an awkward situation for those involved

 

[as if by magic 2]

I've only every had to appointment one person to measure at a qualifying show, she done it beautifully had the exams to back it up and the judge was there overseeing each measurement. I don't undertand why an exact measurement has to be taken, for example at a show earlier in the year, I had a yearling entered, which are allowed to be 32" , I just said to the guy set your stick at 32" and anyone who has difficulty getting under it, you can take further measurements, OH NO he insisted to break my back then with a nod and a wink said AH SURE SHE'S WELL UNDER, SHE'S NOT EVEN 25" !!!! I know how bad my back gets !!

There's no hassle here, it's the ijuits holding the stick !!

 

[shane]

i have to agree with you on that one about the qualifications, i wish there was one person who measures the THEN say vet or someone in fron tof two witnesses then get the passport stamped WHEN THE HORSE IS FIVE so that we only have to get them measured once and everyones happy :bgrin

 

[Minimor]

The problem is, even measuring at the top of the withers, if a person wants to cheat, they can cheat. Sure, it's obvious where to find the top of the withers, but if the steward is going to measure at the last mane hair without actually putting the stick on the floor, what is going to prevent that same steward from measuring the top of the withers without putting the stick on the floor? End result is the same.

It does seem silly to measure at the last mane hair....though the middle of the back would be even worse!!

: After all, wherever you measure, the horse is just as tall as he is--no smaller, no taller--I think the main concern should be to get the measuring done properly--no fudging & measuring to meet the demand of the owner/handler. That would be a marvelous first step...

 

[wiccanz]

It's even worse in New Zealand...

To compete in NZMHA shows, horses must be measured at the last mane hair.

To compete in RAS (Royal Agricultural Society) Shows, they must be measured at the withers, like everyone else.

:new_shocked: :new_shocked: :new_shocked:

So we have a very few horses who compete as A's at RAS shows, and B's at NZMHA Shows...go figure!

Of course, neither side will budge, so that's how it stays. So all our horses have 2 height certificates

:

: Ain't life fun :lol:

ETA: We were rather amazed to see at the World Show last year, horses that had obviously been remeasured to fit into a particular class (reading the measuring sheets). One woman that we were sitting in front of was so irate, that she actually left in disgust!!