Laminitis -- Vaccines, Sedatives

[AngC]

On another thread (about free-feeding alfalfa and/or grass hay,) I mentioned Baby's laminitis episode last spring and was reading the comments regarding shots/sedatives given all at the same time and their effect on laminitis. In the spring, they'll all be due again and I'm really not feeling comfortable... to the point where I want to skip doing anything to them.

Baby was overweight and started with, what I think, was a mild case of laminitis. This started in mid-January. She was doing well; I was following all the vet instructions. Then, first week of March, the vet came out to do everything. At that point, Baby was off stall rest and seemed to be walking fine, although you could see some evidence of the laminitis in her hooves.

So, (early March) at vaccination time all three were given this:

1. EWT/WN (Combination vaccine for Encephalomyelitis- Eastern and Western with Tetanus Toxoid Vaccine and West Nile Virus Vaccine

2. Rabies

3. Dormosedan (sedative for teeth-floating)

Baby was also given Torbugesic. I'm not sure why; at that point she was no longer walking in pain from the laminits. When it was time to do her teeth, the first sedative was not putting her under. Maybe that's why?

The next day, NIcky showed no ill effects; he was bouncing around the pasture like always. The two girls, Coco and Baby, seemed listless--heads hanging down, not very active, not eating much. The following day, Coco was back to normal, but Baby still "seemed off." The third day, Baby was REALLY BAD. ...typical laminitis posture, back legs tucked under. I was afraid Coco would be too boisterous and knock Baby butt-over-tea kettle so Baby went back on stall rest, etc. etc. etc. It seems to me that the vet visit made Baby's laminitis go from recovery to full-blown, oh-my-God!!!

I guess... they need their teeth done. I guess... they need vaccinations

I'm really afraid to have this stuff done in the spring. ...to the point, where I wonder if I can just skip vaccinations and teeth floating?

 

[shorthorsemom]

I float teeth every other year typically. I have them checked yearly. We always give anesthesia for floating. My vet gives an anesthesia that works quickly and wears off quickly so she floats fast.... She uses a type of anesthesia she can reverse if my boy gets too low. When I was driving and training and using a bit on my boys, we floated more often than every other year.

I never give shots at this time.

I do believe in vaccinations. I do not believe they need to be given so often. The protocol for dogs is every 3-5 years. I have always had problems giving all the shots at one time on my one boy. He has not foundered, but it did happen to a pony I had once so I will never do it again.

I have heard of lots of horses having a bout of laminitis following shots. That said... I have also seen horses get very sick from botulism... or WNV too and tetanus is deadly. I always give rabies alone. I give tetanus and EW by itself. I give botulism by itself. I give WNV by itself. I never give 5 way or more shots. I never give shots yearly.

This topic has been debated strongly many times.. You will get many answers and it is an interesting topic.

I can't remember how old you said Baby is.. Vaccines can be tough on older animals especially. My pony was 15.

The one size fits all vaccinations also bothers me... that the 1500 lb horse gets the same shots as a 250 lb miniature horse.

I know the things that the vaccinations protect against are bad, but it is also bad in my opinion when you give a shot to prevent a disease and end up foundering the horse or worse. I would love to have had shadow back and think he probably would have lived a long time had I not vaccinated the crap out of him under the direction of a vet. He foundered badly and the vet also over dosed my pony with bute and he got bute toxicity... that s another topic all together. Shadow haunts me. I am sorry you have had founder or laminitis touch your lives. Something you will never forget, it is so hard watching them struggle.

Anyway... just a few thoughts from me.

cheers.

 

[AngC]

oh-oh. ...I didn't mean to raise a strongly-debated topic. Hopefully, I don't get moderated.

I may not be the coldest beer in the fridge, but even I noticed something went drastically wrong which makes me very reluctant to do it again.

I tried to ask all the right questions. The doses were tailored to their weight/body condition scores. ...which to me seems rather subjective, but at the time Nicky was rated 5.5 of 9, Coco was 6.5 of 9, and Baby was rated 7 of 9.

Baby was 22 months at the time vaccinations/sedatives were given.

Her first shots ever. I had been listening to the whack-job down the street who told me it was b-a-d to vaccinate horses, so had not had any done at that point. (I've since decided that just because someone owns horses doesn't mean they know what they're talking about.) It was probably Coco's first vaccinations also, since she came from a less than stellar situation.

The whole teeth floating procedure was gruesome. The metal mouth thingie and the hang their heads from the rafters harness was actually fitted well for minis, but I was too squeamish to watch much of it, with their poor tongues hanging out of their mouths and all that grinding noise.

The teeth and vaccines (plus we had poop samples and more x-rays for Baby) cost us over $900. Splitting all this up is going to cost even more, I guess. The cost I don't mind so much, but if they're going to get sick afterwards, I'm not feeling too enthused.

 

[shorthorsemom]

you will not be moderated. It is a GREAT topic.

I just mean you will get huge differences of opinion on this topic depending on where folks live and if they show and how old their horses are. Ultimately you will use your instincts and hope for the best for your horses. That's all we can do... care, and love them and hope for the best. I usually take the advice of the vet. If I find a vet I strongly disagree with like in the case of my shadow.... I find another vet. I LOVE my new vet. She is awesome.

On dentals. Everybody has a different style. My horses are sedated but still standing. They put a speculum on the teeth to prevent getting bitten, it hold the mouth open and goes on like a halter. I had a gruesome injury on my thumb from trying to put my hand in my horses mouth so I completely understand using the thingy to keep their mouths open. My vet sits on a two step mounting block in front of my horses and she flushes the mouth out with solution. She shows me the teeth and I can feel the sharp points. She rasps off the points and gets everything smooth and in line with her tool. She uses another tool to take the tartar off the edge of some other teeth and she then flushes again. After they are all finished she reverses the anesthesia and they are only partially groggy. It is actually relaxing to watch. Some vets use grinders to float the teeth rather than rasp. My vet doesn't like that kind of floating device because she thinks it can easily heat the tooth too much so she hand floats.

It is not B A D to vaccinate baby horses, I would never not give any vaccinations.. I just do not believe in yearly shots... that said... on first shots... I do boost them properly. Just giving one shot and then waiting years to give the second does not work. You must boost first shots.... You did what I would have done given the circumstances and you did not cause founder in your baby. It can happen in any horse and now that you know baby is vaccine sensitive... you will probably split up all her vaccinations in the future and watch her like a hawk afterward. My one boy is so sensitive, my vet gives banamine to me to have on hand because my boy gets a neck swelling. I have also heard certain manufacturers of different vaccines can react worse. I think fort dodge might be one that has swelled on my boy before.

I hope this all helps you... don't be bummed.. Folks around here will tell you "its a horse... if it can find trouble it will, if it can cost you money...it will" But we love them anyway. I am still paying off my shots and dentals to my vet from april. almost done. Thank goodness for vets that allow you to make monthly payments.

cheers.

 

[paintponylvr]

Why would you be moderated? GREAT SUBJECT and LOTS of different OPINIONS!

**********

As to vaccinations, different areas of the country sometimes use different protocols. I'm fairly certain I won't give the same things as someone on the west coast. My ponies that stay at home get different vaccines than ponies that go out to be shown in different areas of the country. Our weather patterns (again) are different. During the heavy flooding associated with the heavy rains we got last year (and after particularly large hurricanes that come ashore in our state) - we had/have a huge population boom in MOSQUITOES. Mosquitoes are a vector for eastern, western and Venezuelan encephalitis AND west nile virus. HOWEVER, these diseases aren't always all active at the same time.

I generally don't give Venezuelan UNLESS the vets in our area or our State University puts out that there is a breakout of it. We haven't had to give it since ... I believe1999 or 2000. At all. In 1999/2000, we had a huge amount of storms/hurricanes and we vaccinated w/ "mosquito shots" (ewt or Eastern & Western Encephalitis & Tetanus) 3-4 x that year. It was felt that was the # of vaccines to be effective in caring for our horses. I actually was able to get vaccines that ONLY had e&w encephalitis - no tetanus - and gave it that way except for the one vaccination - much less expensive that way, too, when dealing with a herd of equine! I can't remember what year WNvirus started in our state. BUT I did see several cases in person while riding with our vet to various farms. WN was not a pretty site. Neither is EE (haven't seen WE - maybe because it's "western" not "eastern"??). The horses that I saw whom had gotten sick w/ both of those - didn't make it. BUT I talked to others who have successfully treated BOTH. I also saw some pretty serious reactions to the first WN vaccines - while studies didn't seem to prove that they were enough protection against the virus. My decision - my opinion - our herd weren't getting the vaccinations - want to say for 2-3 years. My vet insisted that I start my guys on WN vaccines in 2003 - and that fall - I did. The very first ones were single vaccines - not in combo w/ any other vaccine. So were the boosters. I think I started giving EWTWN (Eastern, Western, Tetanus, West Nile) in 2004 or 2005 - when it became available to the public via mail order. My vet (then) was happy to have me give my own.

Since I arrived in NC in 1997, we have given Rabies vaccinations. Rabies is a prevalent disease here and many of the counties we've lived in have had cases of both wild and domestic animals come down with it w/i miles of our property. Rabies has to be given by the vet - in NC we can't get it ourselves to give. SO, the vet administers that one when they do the Coggins on our ponies. As my numbers of horses have grown, and different aged babies get the vaccinations at different times, I break the ponies into groups to get their coggins/rabies at different times. A vet actually sees my whole herd 3-4x yearly since I have the vet come to my farm. 2013 is the first year I haven't given RV to every pony/horse on our property. Why? Over the last few years - I'm seeing more and more reactions to the Rabies vaccine. In Dec 2012 - I had 10 ponies vaccinated. 6 of the 10 developed very sore necks & 2 given in the rumps also developed abscesses - 4 of those developed severe abscesses that had to be drained and packed and treated w/ antibiotics. I'm glad that I wasn't working! I spent ALL my time taking care of those ponies and it was not an easy task. We had noted (since I'd already had some reactions) which ponies got vaccine from which batch/vial. They were from 3 DIFFERENT batches - so don't think it was a bad batch. More likely - it's a developing sensitivity to the "carrier" that is now used with the vaccine. We also noted that the reactions ran in bloodlines of our ponies and that it was the "heavier" ponies that had the worst reactions - also developing some sensitivity in their hooves...

In 2013 - I spaced out the RV and coggins - letting several run out and go some extra months before getting their vaccines. 2 mares (1991 & 1992 full sisters) didn't get RV at all. Some of the same ponies had reactions again - none were as severe as in Dec 2012. Not all had reactions... Not sure what conclusion to draw from that. 2014 - have done no RV on the older ponies that have had RV consistently since 2009. Since I haven't really done any events - most of our coggins and RV have run out before they were done again...

I've also been questioning WNV again. Does it really need to be given? Is it really effective? I've been looking for just the EWencephalitis by itself and I'm not finding it that way anymore. Why do we need to give tetanus 2-4x yearly? Think about that for a bit. Even if your horse is getting tetanus 2-4 x yearly here - if there is a major wound that requires vet attention - that horse is automatically given a "good" dose of tetanus (the quick acting kind) here. Tetanus is given automatically when a horse is gelded - that's why I always think about when I do what to each pony.

Ask your vets how long a flu/rhino vaccination is good for. When does your horse develop a viable immunity to those virus's and how long does it last? UNLESS my ponies are going out on the show trail where they will be stabled overnight with other horses/ponies - I no longer give flu/rhino at all. I've been told by vets that the vaccines themselves cause no problems w/ the mares carrying foals but hmmm - none of the vets in our area will give a RV to mares during most of their pregnancies. They recommend giving them RV after they foal and before they are rebred. Are all the "Rhino K" vaccines really necessary? They recommend them here at 3,5, 7 & 9 months of pregnancy...

All of this stated and I have one more statement or question. Is your horse truly protected from getting one of these diseases if they are given the vaccines? In most cases - the vaccine DOES NOT prevent your horse from getting it if he/she is exposed. The vaccine causes your horse to develop anitbodies for the disease - and that will lesson the severity of the illness IF your horse is exposed AND becomes ill. It doesn't keep your horse from getting sick. Also, just as in us humans, some horses just seem to be pre-disposed to get ill and others seem to have a much stronger immune system and simply don't get sick!

AS to combo vaccines - study how immunity is developed. The more vaccines that are combined in one shot AND/OR given at one time as more than one shot - the lower the immunity buildup to EACH VACCINE. At least that was the way it was once believed. I haven't pulled any current studies to see if this is still the way it works... IF it is still the same - then the more vaccines you give at one time, the lower the immunity to each one your horse develops. That can be a BAD thing.

I've never had a problem with combining RV, Coggins (not a vaccine!) and either floating the teeth or castration... The ponies that had reactions to the RV in the past weren't getting floated or castrated.

**********

When was the last time you got a vaccine? What were you given? Did you get a flu shot? What happened when you got it - did you develop any muscle soreness, muscle cramping, headaches or fever? How severe?

Are you a parent? Your child is vaccinated. Your child will usually react to the vaccines given. With fever, localized swelling and definite soreness. All 3 of our daughters SCREAMED bloody murder when they were picked up the 2nd day after getting a vaccine in the thigh!!!! IT WAS SCARY!!! There could be an allergic reaction. The care directions have changed from when our daughters were infants/toddlers to what was done/watched for w/ our 2 grand daughters (and YES, the human vaccines have changed as well).

Some dogs get very sick when they get vaccinated. Ours only get the required Rabies vaccinations and I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that they can now go 3 years between RV. Why do I see studies showing they can go up to 7 years but we still have to give vaccines so often???

Well, horses have vaccine reactions as well. They can't vomit, they can't tell you "it hurts" - other than hanging their heads and acting "blah". Did you take their temps after they had their vaccines? Bet they were VERY elevated.

The last 3 flu shots I received when I was active duty army. All 3 times, I had severe reactions and got very, very sick. The 2nd time, the symptoms were so severe that I had to be hospitalized! It's now in my medical records that I probably shouldn't get a typical flu shot. BUT as my body ages, in the future, I may reconsider - simply because my reaction may be much less severe than the consequences of getting the current outbreak of the "flu".

**********

Your Baby possibly just had a reaction that got of hand. Made more severe because her body was hit by SO MANY things at one time.

Several of our local vets seem to agree that vaccinations start as foals - and they they get "boosters". Used to be, we started the vaccine "series" when the foal was 3 months old. Now, most start no earlier than 4 months of age. They get the "mosquito shot" first - IE - EWTWN. Then a month later they get a flu/rhino vaccine - the flu strains vary as to what they get and some shots can have as many as 5 or 6 "strains" of the flu in 1 vaccine!! Then a month later they get another EWTWN. ETC - a total of 3 of each type is given with alternating time frames. A RV is started in there somewhere between the two above (2 weeks between the shots). Our current vet feels that Rabies vaccine, in horses, now needs to also be boostered 2x after the foals' initial inoculation (OMG -

) - between 4 and 18 months of age...

Botulism - I've never been in an area that "had it". Have no idea how it's given, how often etc. Always thought botulism was a "form" of food poisoning and didn't realize you could do a vaccine against it. I googled it - learned some new stuff!

EPM - horses can/do get it here. They do have a vaccine. It's controversial. Once a horse is given an EPM vaccine - they titer positive for EPM (the disease). AT least you used to not be able to "tell the difference" if the horse actually had the disease OR if he was positive JUST from the vaccine. Not sure it's still the same?? I don't like that and I don't give it. The only pony that I had that was given the vaccine when I leased her out and she was boarded. The boarding barn required it. The pony was an older mare (19) - and she had a VERY severe reaction to the vaccine (&/or the total # of vaccines that they gave her for some reason. They ignored the paperwork I provided from my vet showing what vaccines she'd already had and gave her everything AGAIN + several extras that I don't generally give at all). She was one sick, teenaged mare - and the folks who leased her paid a lot of $$ for her after care. HMMMM - the vet was happy and so was the boarding barn (who got paid for a lot of the care for the mare - as the rest of us were working full time and couldn't do the daytime treatments). She did not develop laminitus or founder & no rotation - but not for lack of trying.

PHF - or Potomac Horse Fever. I have given it in the past - when the girls were actively showing and when we planned on several of our horses going to show in VA, MD, PA & DE. PHF is vectored by mosquitoes if I remember right. Don't see any reason right now to give it. AND I could be wrong.

Strangles - I have not given it to most of ours. It's available now as a little squirt pouch and you just shoot it up their nostril. I understand it's easy and no reactions like you used to get with the vaccine (quite nasty).

There are other diseases out there that have vaccines. As a horse owner, you arm yourself w/ education, check with local vets and/or any organizations that have power over you (different rules in different states regarding RV, etc) and you give your vaccines by your choice. IF a horse is currently not vaccinated or a vaccination history isn't available, you will need to booster the vaccines when you first get them started. It seems that there are still a lot of vets out there that do what yours did - a whole lot of vaccines at once. Too late for your FIRST experience - but now you know that that didn't work and you can CHOOSE what to have given when. Just because your vet says it can all be done at one time, doesn't mean you can't ask for vaccines to be split up!

 

[Marsha Cassada]

If I showed regularly or traveled with my horses a lot I would seriously consider a vaccine regimen. But my hroses generally stay close to home and rarely mix with strange horses. I do not vaccinate any more. The last time I vaccinated, which was 3 years ago, was tetanus and rabies. Within a month, one of my horses developed a skin condition and a few months later became lamanitic. Coincidence? Climate? I don't know. But everything I'm reading about vaccines--for animals and people-- is scary.

My husband got the tetanus combo vaccine, and within a couple of months contracted an autoimmune disease called Beurgers.

Vaccines are a gamble. I prefer not to do it. I believe good horsekeeping goes a long way toward good hrose health.

Look in your phone book in the Blue government Pages. There is a hotline for people to call with vaccine problems. What does that tell you?

But, like I said, if I was on a busy show circuit I'd do things differently.

 

[madmax]

paintponylvr you can get EW alone from the Jeffers Vet catalog

 

[paintponylvr]

paintponylvr you can get EW alone from the Jeffers Vet catalog

THANX madmax -was just out there looking (again) and still not finding it. BUt w/ the heads up I will call them later today!! I just really hadn't gotten that far & now that we are into OCT I need to get vaccines ordered. Want to give just EW right now. No, tetanus and no WNV...

And then we'll see how we do.

Have several coming due for RV again. sigh. And it starts again. I have "hot socks" prepared and also have new towels to help w/ any hot packing. My current vet is not happy w/ my request to give RV in the butt. May take them down to my previous vet. Won't cost anymore - but not sure I want to haul aload of ponies to get RV/coggins... Decisions, decisions... I was able to get banamine from my previous vet (current vet didn't think I needed it UNTIL I call her out for her to check each individual pony - do they really think I'm going to poke my ponies for NO REASON??)...

 

[shorthorsemom]

I keep banamine paste on hand. If I use banamine injectable, I give it orally. I do not inject banamine ever.

Just thought I would bring that up as related to shot reaction.

 

[AngC]

paintponylvr Thank you. Massive amount of information there. I have to go read up before I can comment.

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

I always give banamine IV. A dissection in college scared the crap out of me enough to never give it IM!

Minis get the same vaccine dose as big horses because they need the same 'level of exposure' to create immunity. Their immune system is no different from a big horse. Just like I give the same dose to a 500 lb heifer as a 1500 lb cow. A smaee dose wouldn't be enough to fully trip the system.

I vaccinate IN for strangles. The PMU auctions are held in our show grounds, and after a neighbor picked up a few PMU colts and lost over 50% of her 50 head appy farm; I am simply unwilling to take a chance. Anyone I know having personally dealt with strangles vaccinated ther horses too. Easy qucik shot up into the nose.

I vaccinate for WNV. Very prevalent up here. Same with Potomac. It's spread via snails. EEE I vaccinate for, a kid died just this spring from it 20 miles down the road. Had one big perch x get a puffy neck and felt a bit yucky the first time he had it. Otherwise no issues.

Anything else mosquito born every one gets vaccinated for. Same with Potomac and rabies. Rabies is just dumb not to vaccinate for. I can catch that too; and ain't nobody got time for that. I'll keep it out of my horses!

Otherwise only show horses get heavily vaccinated. The pasture puff doesn't need to be armored as heavy against horse to horse transmission, but stil needs their 'skeeter shot.'