laminitis and muzzles

[barnbum]

Rosie was diagnosed with mild laminitis about 9 weeks ago. She's been in a muzzle ever since. Just last weekend, she started limping again. I thought it was a one hoof deal from the way her head bobbed when she walked. She didn't walk that way when both front hooves were sore. Pulse is stronger in the front right--as much as I can tell--and it seemed to be the right that she was favoring. Also, while soaking she will cock the front right now and then--never the front left. I'm truly hoping is an abscess or bruise.

I've been on contact with my farrier-who I trust more with hoof issues than the vets. He thought from my description it sounded like a bruise or abscess--and said to soak her hooves in a warm water/Epsom salt solution for 20 a few times a day. I have been--after three though I wondered IF it IS laminitis, if cold water would be better. I asked and he said to switch to cold, so I have. Farrier comes Monday morning--he was too busy with folks needed trims for shows to come out; Monday is his scheduled appt from 8 weeks ago. I feel confident he'll be able to come up with some answers.

Here's my question:

IF he determines Rosie's laminitis has developed again--could the tiny bit of grass she gets with the muzzle on still be too much? The hole is about half an inch wide. She sure doesn't get much. All my horses are in them now and they "graze" all day--I have all pastures open as the farrier okayed 8 weeks ago. It will be a tricky deal if I can't have her on pastures with a muzzle. We can't seem to develop a dry lot here--and the pasture I'd Round-Up--is in the middle so the horses need to be on it every day at some point.

 

[kaykay]

I am a firm believer that any horse showing even mild signs of laminitis should never be on grass. Even small amounts can cause a lot of damage and pain. We had one here years ago and if she even nibbled on the grass under the fence she would be in pain for a week. We had to use grass killer all a long the fence line so that she couldnt nibble it.

I know when dealing with ours I talked to so many different equine vets. Almost all of them said with each "attack" the damage gets worse so the best thing is to keep them off grass entirely. Especially if the laminitis was caused by grass.

I know its a pain to make drylots and they arent nice looking but I dont know what we would do without ours. Its so nice to be able to put them on grass a few hours and then make them come in off the grass.

Sending prayers to your baby!

Kay

 

[shorthorsemom]

Do you have her on anything like remission or one of those supplements for IR or founder prone horses? (I forget the name of the other one...)

Also, I would recommend you have her checked for cushings. My pony foundered on hardly any grass. He was not fat and did not have trouble losing his hair in the spring. He foundered and then a few weeks later did it again worse. He was diagnosed with cushings and that was causing the founder.

Could also be a gravel or abcess forming as founder loosens up the white line and it becomes prime for problems.

If you could get her into a loafing paddock at night with 4-6 inches of pea gravel in it, that might help too. The pea gravel supports the frog and helps keep the sole from dropping and causing pain. I know it is a pain to fence off paddocks, but I do not regret creating the two paddock areas that I have. I only put my boys out onto the grass a couple of hours a day and my one boy often wears a muzzle. (Google Pete Ramey's recommendations on pea gravel and hooves.)

I know how frustrating it can be dealing with even a mild case of laminitis, best wishes to you for a solution.

 

[Jill]

Karla, I haven't often used muzzles but have on two horses (paternal siblings, Derby and Khaki). My advice is if you use one, but sure it is either a break away muzzle, or a muzzle you attaché to a break away halter (with a strap a mini can break -- I have had "break away" halters for minis where the break away strap is just as thick as on my riding horses' halters). The muzzles I used were advertised that the horse could drink through them. However, just because a horse can, doesn't mean a horse will. That had worried me.

 

[barnbum]

Jill--all horses have the most highly recommended muzzles and all are attached to safety halters.

Thanks for checking.

Kay--besides Round-Up--how can I create a dry lot? Is there a safe way to kill a lot of grass without chemicals? I'll be looking that up next... I have all grass--every pasture. It rains a lot every summer lately and the grass will come back every year, so I imagine this will need to be done yearly. It's such an overwhelming issue I wonder if I should sell her to a place with a dry lot?

I have Remission--she hates the stuff and leaves what I give her.

They did blood work on Rosie a while back because she wasn't herself--but nothing came up that could be changed with dietary measures. I'll have to ask the vet exactly what was off.

I do not have pea gravel... and would need to section off a tiny area to consider that idea. I have five small pastures now... and Rosie will need to be in one where she can see everyone else....

This is so frustrating.

***********************

Looked up killing grass--and the chemical free options are to use newspaper, black plastic or vinegar. The middle pasture is too big for any of those options. Looks like it's going to be Round-Up and I'll need to escort horses off it to another pasture for several days.

 

[kaykay]

Karla

I think the easiest fastest way would be to fence off a smaller area next to the barn. That is how we did it. If you can put up a new fence with a pretty small area and let the ones not affected eat it down, you will be amazed how fast the grass is gone. I think ours took 2 weeks. You could use electric rope to make it cheap and fast to put up.

Ive always said the hardest part of owning miniatures is keeping them at a good weight---not to fat and not too thin. Its such a pain!

Can you feel heat in her hoof?? You can get a pair of hoof testers to keep on hand but I found that you can usually feel the heat pretty easily.

My prayers are with Rosie!

Kay

 

[barnbum]

Oh Jill--when I introduced the muzzle to each of the horses, I did so in short durations and watched them carefully to make sure all of them would drink. None of them hesitated. I was surprised.

Well--here's the plan: we are going to cut the middle pasture in half--headed to buy another gate and two panels to make the break. We just Rounded-Up the whole area. This will be tricky to keep horses off it for a week. All mares are stalled--Rosie will be stalled until the farrier comes Monday morning. The yearlings are out front--hollering because they want to be with the rest. Sigh...

My farrier called to check on Rosie and said I'm doing all the right things--and that he feels her case is very mild and he's had very good luck with horses in muzzles to prevent laminitis. I told him until he is able to tell me what is up--I'm not taking any chances. Either way--I'll have a dry lot now. I have very little pasture--maybe an acre and a half? Now it's in six sections. Good grief.

Thanks for the replies... more are welcome.

Just saw your reply, Kay. I thought about your idea--but didn't want to unmuzzle the rest for them to eat it down. With my luck--I'd get another horse with this!

Plus--once the other horses are off--the grass will grow back easily. It's not lush--but apparently it's still too much!

No hoof has felt warmer than the others. If one does--I'll compare it to another horses and it'll be the same temp. It hasn't been a good indicator for me at all. Her hooves never felt warm the first time this happened--not until it was cold, wet, muddy--then I could tell easily.

 

[Marty]

Karla, yes this can of couse be an abcess and abcess are also related to founder. Soak in cool water for sure about 5 times a day for about ten minutes. When I had Sonny having a laminitis attack I did use the dreaded "B" med for two days to get that inflamation down before it developed into full blown founder and I keep him "lean" from any bit of excess fat off of him where I can feel his ribs if I push on his sides but you can't see them helps so much.Not easy cause he's such a tank but he hasen't had an issue in two years thank goodness. Can you get someone in there with a garden tractor and a disk to tear that ground up or rent one? Then afterwards, make a drag and drag it smooth. Get a load of chat or pea gravel delivered and spread it thick. Then turn all the horses out on it to keep the grass stomped down from coming up. The pea gravel or chat whatever you use should help it from becoming one huge mud hole in the winter. Good luck I know this is tuff. Hugs to Rosie.

 

[shorthorsemom]

If you have a digital pulse you still have a problem in the hoof. My experience is that anytime you have a pulse on a horse with previous laminitis spells trouble. Pulse can indicate conditions for rotation, blood collecting in the foot, pressure. Do you have her on some banamine? You might also pad and raise her heels to take pressure off her toes too which will help some.

My dry lot... I cut the grass real low, put in the pea gravel and created an instant dry lot. Never regreted it a bit. Makes the hooves hard, the white line tight and my guys can run on rocks and their hooves don't crack or chip. I am preparing to refresh my pea gravel soon. My boys love it, they lay in it, roll in it and it is great footing and easy to clean up and no slip or trip in the winter either. Stuff moves when they walk on it, no more frozen hoof clods, no mud when it rains, they stay so much cleaner too.

I heard somebody on this forum say that you couldn't use round up your pasture and then turn out anytime soon. I don't know if that is true or not, (somebody please comment) but when I used round up on some weeds my guys were so interested in the weeds I had to put up some electric tape to keep them out of the area until it all died down. I need to treat some weeds now and am not sure what to use and dreading putting up all that extra stay out electric tape.

 

[chandab]

I have Remission--she hates the stuff and leaves what I give her.

This is so frustrating.

Remission is even more of an acquired taste than beet pulp. I have 4 on it now (one true laminitic mare and 3 as hopefully preventative). The laminitic mare (Misty) is usually not a picky mare, but she hated the Remission when I first tried it (like 4 years ago), but I added it to a little plain wet beet pulp (like 1/2 cup wet), so she couldn't sort it out and after awhile I was able to drop the wet beet pulp and she eats top dressed on her ration balancer (unless the cats are eating it, she cleans up every bite). Misty is on drylot 24/7, no grass (ok, so now and then I give in and give her a few blades that I've handpicked), no grain; she gets plain grass hay, ration balancer and Remission daily year-round, and in winter I add plain soaked beet pulp to help with hydration. [Due to farrier issues, we are still getting her hooves normalized, I have a new farrier that is working wonders and we are getting there.]

Karla, e-mail me anytime you want to discuss laminitic issues, I'll share waht I've learned over the last 4+ years.

When Misty was in her initial active bout of laminitis, I had to give her bute for a week to come close to easing her pain (she was so sore, she was laying down alot), but once she was over the initial pain, I put her on B-L pellets (not for pregnant horses) and they kept her comfortable (up and moving a little bit), she stayed on B-L pellets for at least 6 months (probably more cautionary than necessary).

What is she eating? Forage type? Commercial feed?

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

Interesting about Remission, I had no problem with any of mine eating it! I started very slow with just a small sprinkle and built up to the full amount. My horses will lick it off the bottom of their buckets!

I also confirm no grass at all, it's a pain to make a dry lot and have to keep them penned up, but healthier in the long run. I think she should have been off grass for at least a month or more if laminitis was suspected. The best time to graze a laminitic horse is 5am, before the grass begins photosynthesis and after the sugars created from sunlight have been "stored" in my laymans terms.

I also gave MSM & Ground flax, they are both natural anti-inflammatories and the Omega oils in the flax seed are really good for horses that aren't getting any pasture/fresh grass.

Isn't your vet any help at all with how to treat laminitis?

 

[barnbum]

Kim--I called my vet the first time all this happened and she (one of them) said it sounded like a tendon issue and usually these things are a mystery--to her defense I told her Rosie was putting full weight on the hooves and there was no warmth--but she didn't come out. She said x-rays wouldn't show anything unless it was a bone issue--and because the Banamine worked--they wouldn't help. I will call them if needed after the farrier leaves Monday. There's also an equine vet who just changed her area and my place is included now. I will call her I think.

I sure wish Rosie would eat the Remission! I sprinkled it lightly to start--and for 2-3 weeks she wouldn't eat it--still won't. I will try again.

The only time my mares--the other two--NOT Rosie--get grass is in the morning about 6:00-6:30 AM. Then once I'm done with chores, on go the muzzles. The yearlings get the muzzles off earlier in the evening to give them time to feel like a horse.

chandab--Rosie eats about a 1/3 tsp of Mega-Cell--a vit/min supplement I get from Smart-Pac with about a tbsp of Carb Guard twice a day (but I'm even leaving that off Rosie's menu now). She eats all grass hay.

Rosie is 100% fine on Banamine, but the farrier doesn't like me to mask the pain so she doesn't over do the walking. I think I'll give her some since she'll be stalled for a few days--just to make her more comfortable. I'll make sure she hasn't had any for 24 hours when he comes. So today is the only day I can give her some. She's never laid down extra from this--just normal rests.

shorthorsemom--I could feel the pulse in all four hooves--and I think being able to feel it is normal--but if it's strong it means trouble. Her right hoof is strongest. The back hooves are weak/soft. But--I'm new to the pulse thing. The soaking events have given me time to find them.

I asked about Round-Up to a forum person whose husband worked with making it--I think that's what he did--and he said three days off pasture, but I'm going to go for a week just to be safe. Maybe longer. She'll still wear her muzzle when she's on it for a while.

Marty--I like the idea of covering the area with something else--I'll have to look into that. It's a little muddy in the spring--not too bad. We don't have access to a disk--but it's already been Rounded-up.

I think to keep it grassless I can let all the other horses on it without muzzles in the spring to let them keep it eaten up and stomped down. I don't want to have to use chemicals on it every year. The chat would sure help.

I've been soaking her twice a day--now I'm upping it to 4-5 for 15-20 minutes. She's so good about it--but she needs to be able to eat hay while she's soaking or I have to scratch her belly the whole time to keep her distracted and still.

Thanks for all the ideas..

 

[shorthorsemom]

Hi, I found the following (attached) on digital pulse... Good tip to check when they are not having an issue... I only check if I am worried so I will be checking more often so thanks for mentioning the correct pulse and strong pulse comment

.Here is the quote I found helpful on pulse checking.....

"Our vet, Elaine Gregg of Horsefeathers Veterinary has suggested that by feeling the digital pulse you can anticipate and prevent founder. The digital pulse is taken by feeling the arteries leading into each hoof. There are 8 measurements -- an inside and outside for each hoof. The pulse is measured how strong it feels. She informs us that 2-3 days before the onset of founder, the digital pulse will get extremely strong. Feeling for the pulse daily (or even weekly) when picking the feet will give you an indication of it's normal state. The digital pulse is hard to find, so you may need your vet or farrier to help you the first few times. If you feel significant changes in the digital pulse, take your horse off of it's pasture and call your vet immediately! You may be able to prevent the onset of laminitis.

On the remission... my boy said no way at first so I added it to a bit of unsweetened applesause and put some of his pellets in the sauce. He gradually accepted the taste and now he starts licking it up before I put the pellets in. You can also mix the remission with the applesause and syringe it in until they develop a taste for it.

You can also add ice to the foot soak water to make it nice and cold.

Thanks for sharing, you have made me think about digging out the muzzle again for my boy.

 

[AnnaC]

You have a great many good suggestions in all the above posts, but I would like to tell you what I did with my foundered mare. At the moment she is happily living out 24/7 in my 'starvation' paddock with her friends. This is a 4 acre field with little grass and she shares it with 16 other 'fat' miniatures (cant see any of them losing weight though but they are not getting any fatter!) They have a mineral and vitamin lick with them permanently and spend most of their time moving round and round the field in their search for grass, which keeps them 'on the go' as per a herd of horses in the wild. I watch her like a hawk for the very first sign of a shortening of her stride up or down the slopes of the field. She has had no problem at all this year, but at the first sign she would be brought into a large stable, loads of bedding so she would be comfortable if she wanted to lay down, grass hay and a balancer for minerals and vitamins. She would then be allowed to wander round our concrete yard for several hours in the day, picking at the weeds - to save me doing the job of clearing them!

When she did founder last year my farrier and I decided to try a method we found on the internet regarding foot treatment. When a horse founders the pedal bone rotates downwards at the front of the foot (usually) as it breaks away from the laminae. The object of the 'game' is to help the new laminae as they re-grow down from the top of the hoof - along with the new hoof - to re-attach to the pedal bone and to stay attached to 'pull' the pedal bone back up into a more normal position. We left the thick hard sole entirely alone to support her foot. Heels must be kept trimmed back to normal level - if you allow heels to grow in anyway you are actually increasing the angle of the pedal bone more acutely towards the ground/sole and as it it already unattached from most of the laminae, you can cause it to drop through the sole and you will lose the horse! Next we very carefully rasped right round the foot making a neat rounded edge of the wall where it meets the white line and the sole - just the edge, not a long way up the wall as it is the wall that is holding the foot together at this time. What you are trying to achieve is to have the horse walking on its sole with the wall rasped so that is doesnt quite touch the ground. If your horse is walking on any part of the wall of the foot, then with every stride the weight of the horse will put pressure on the wall and force it a little further away from the white line, keeping the separation of the wall from the growing down new wall as a permanent split and therefore as the new hoof grows it will just keep separating at the bottom inch or so and never knit together. I'm sure I'm not explaining this very well, but just try to visulise your horse walking on its foot wall and just keeping the split open with every stride, against your horse walking on its sole with no pressure on the wall and that wall slowly growing down from the top into a new strong hoof with no chance to split as it reaches the bottom inch or so at ground level.

To be really sucessful the horse must spend several hours a day on a hard flat surface where the wall is free from ground contact plus it can have a deep soft bed for when it is in the stable - it is kinder to offer a really comfortable place for when it needs to lay down! The idea of pea beach for horses feet is a brilliant one and one that I wholeheatedly approve of, but it wont work here as your 'hard surface'' because the horse will sink in and pressure will be put on the hoof walls. If you could make your new fenced area really hard and flat this would help - if you dont have an area of concrete you could use for her.

Of course this is just the method that worked for my mare and one does have to keep at least the foot trimming going for the year it will take for a new hoof to grow down, but there is no reason why, once the 'attack' has passed and your mare is out of pain, that she should not join her friends to lead her normal life - just keep those walls rasped smoothly rounded back from ground level as much as possible.

Hope some of this might help - sorry it is such a marathon post LOL!!

Anna

 

[barnbum]

shorthorsemom--thanks for the info! I have some unsweetened applesauce in the fridge right now. I added it to her few pellets of Mega-Cell--and I'll check to see if she ate it.

Anna--I think how you explained the trim is what my farrier did. He told me he trimmed heels to relieve pressure on her toe--and he rasped the front from the outside to round it off. Her front hooves only looked a little long to me, so I rasped them in the front to help until he gets here. He explained she had to have no grass for two months to give it time to grow out. The pastures are clay soil--so aren't soft, but not super hard. But, I'm going to print your explanation off and have my farrier read it. He will appreciate any new ideas--and I will tell you his reaction.

Well--it's sure tricky moving horses around with that R-Uped area--I need to make sure everyone is haltered so I can lead them the short distance to the front pasture. At one time I was leading three horses at a time because they wouldn't take turns at the gate.

Rosie was soaked again--20 min in ice cold water--you--ice in there too. I felt and compared her pulses most of the time and her front right is the trouble spot for sure. It's also a tiny bit warmer and it's the only one she lifts. So--I'm thinking we're dealing with one hoof--so bruise or abscess--but now I'll have a dry lot.

One panel is up and the gate! Mark is going to cut the other panel tomorrow to fit the small area left to close in. So--in a week we should be good to go!

 

[Jill]

Karla, it sounds like you've got it covered with safety issues, muzzles, and break away halters. Hopefully those reading the thread for their own information also get that not all break away halters will really break for minis, and that not all minis will drink when wearing a muzzle (even the ones that are advertised to allow minis to drink).

A dry lot sounds like the best idea, at least to have for when you need it. One thing that would concern me is that she's so young and to have this issue in August (at least in VA, the grass is "crispy" this time of year)... I'd want a dry lot for the spring because the amount of grass she could crop through the muzzle may be too much.

All best wishes.

 

[barnbum]

Thanks, Jill. The muzzles I decided on are Best Friend ones. They had glowing reviews and I've been so happy with them. I tried another, but they wouldn't stay on. I didn't trust them for many days. The safety halters were purchased from the same place. Not an inexpensive purchase, but they should last awhile.

Rosie seems to be limping less this morning--and I'm more convinced it is just one hoof, but it doesn't matter, as you said Jill, I will be happy to finally have a dry lot. They will all be confined to it in the spring so it'll stay nice and...well..like a dry lot.

During Rosie's soak this morning, I played around feeling digital pulses some more (gee--isn't this what everyone does on a Sunday morning??

) and the pulse is so much stronger in her right hoof. And it's still the one she lifts now and then... so I bet the farrier will say it's an abscess coming through. If he does, I'll need to learn more about those... and should that be the case, I wish I was soaking her in warm water vs. cold. I left the ice out at least.

Our grass is still very GREEN! We've had enough rain to keep it growing well-darn it. It's been a challenge for Mark to keep all the lawns mowed. We've never needed to mow pastures, but now that muzzles are here, we have mowed them this year and they need it again.

 

[shorthorsemom]

How about adding epsom salts to the water? Perhaps that would help draw some.

Best wishes for a positive outcome. I think Sunday morning pulse checking says you care a whole bunch for your girl and you are worried about her.

.

PS, how about skipping the soaking and put on a soft pad hoof sneaker... you could add some poultice to the pad (like packing a diaper with poultice and putting it on the hoof). Tape it on carefully and not too tight, just enough to keep it on the foot...

Would seem that for either abscess or laminitis padding the foot would make her more comfortable and you would be covering both bases. just a thought.

 

[barnbum]

shorthorsemom--the farrier said Epsom salts too, so I got some right away. Her first three warm water soaks were with that... but then I switched to cold and she would drink it!!

So, after spending one soak keeping her muzzle out of the water--I decided it was safer to leave them out. It's hard to understand how that stuff works.

I turned my ankle today while carrying a kayak and stepping in a low spot, so I soaked my foot/ankle in it tonight just to feel what Rosie's feeling and see if it works... I didn't notice anything better.

The pulse in Rosie's right hoof throbs compared to the others. Today I soaked only that hoof twice. I put her muzzle on for five minutes today so she could get five minutes of sun while I cleaned stalls--and at first she didn't limp at all, but then when leading her back she suddenly tripped a bit and then limped badly. So weird....

The new section is up to create the dry lot and the grass has already taken on a yellowish hue! I won't let the horses on until Friday at the earliest. Mark constructed that and a new fenced in area for Buddy--our newest dog-for when I go back to work in September.

The farrier comes tomorrow at 9:00 AM--I'll be back to report his ideas. I'll have Anna's and your ideas to share with him.

 

[barnbum]

Farrier just left. It's laminitis again--another flare up. He had me walk her a short ways and he could tell right away that she was sore in both feet, but more so in the right. (I could hardly see the limp when I was walking her!) He said no grass at all--that she must be getting too much with the muzzle, but also her crest, although smaller, is still a problem. He said even her going into heat could start the inflammation again until she loses the crest.

I showed him how much hay I give her--2 lbs twice a day (I weight it)--more when I soak her to keep her still--and he checked to see how that was and he adjusted it to 1.5 lbs. He said as much as she can eat in an hour--but I told him it takes her less time than that even at 2 lbs. He said for now the soaking is more important that her getting a little too much hay. I try to soak her when it's meal time so she doesn't get extra. She only gets Mega-Cell other than hay.

He had me put an extra bag of shavings in her stall--which I just did and she's having fun rolling in that. She has a large stall so it doesn't look like much... I may add another.

Soak at least twice a day.

X-rays are not necessary because he feels they'd show no rotation at this point. That made me happy.

He said her feet had twice as much to trim because the inflammation makes them grow twice as fast. He's scheduled to come in six weeks--usually it's eight.

I'm so so glad we got that dry lot started. Now I have to figure out when I feel it's safe to turn her out on it. It'll be important for all the grass to have died--but until it's 100% gone, I'll have her wear her muzzle, but that girl is going to go nuts in her stall for a min of five more days.

She's my most active horse. I'll go give her a stall ball, Jolly Ball, and a milk jog to play with. She was running and bucking in there earlier.