here's our dwarf

[capall beag]

Must say I don't see a dwarf here BUT I do think the tiny mini's can look dwarf like to people who are not partial to them.

I love the little ones but think they can look very disproportioned!

I was recently at a big horse show with one of my minis, 29". A Draft horse judge said to me, that is a great looking mare, if only her legs were longer........of course then she would be a 34" mare

However, I was not offended at all. In fact, I think he was right!!!

I think Margo's post was very informative and she helped me dissect the OP's photo of her pretty little stallion.

I think posts like this are brilliant, so much can be learned from this!

Thanks for the post(OP) and being so open minded.

 

[outlawridge]

Margo, thank you for that excellent post! And even though I am no where near the trained eye that you are (my learning has alot further to go) I fully agree with your observation. Personally I really like this little horse! He is a refreshingly handsome and proportionate tiny little guy!

Because of being home to four dwarfs, and continually learning more about them, I am extremely careful and picky when looking at the smaller horses regarding dwarf traits. And I also agree that it would be a travesty to no longer have our smaller horses. But with this quest in breeding, we must all be VERY careful in our selections. I am overjoyed, and greatly relieved, that this forum is addressing dwarfism and dwarf traits in the educational manner it is. I do not feel there is anything scarey, accusatory, or offensive about these 'conversations'. All of us love these little horses and are concerned for the babies we are responsible for bringing into this world. If not, we wouldn't even be having these posts.

Two other points....dwarf traits does not mean the horse is a dwarf, but possible may be a carrier.

And secondly, Margo's references to athletics and conformational requirments for performance horses..... These requirments when making our breeding choices should be just as important for the halter horse, because, after all, they are all HORSES! We don't expect them to stand still in a stall and just look pretty for us, but to enjoy life as a horse is meant to. They ARE an athletic being. And in order to be all that they can be, along with our desires for improving our breed, these considerations are equally important regardless if it's a halter, driving, liberty horse or anything in between.

I for one, THANK YOU ALL for openly and willingly discussing and sharing knowledge about the sweet wee ones that sometimes are the result of our breeding choices. I love my dwarfs, and hover over them constantly, making sure each one is as healthy and comfortable as possible. But it is heartbreaking when more are born due to ignorance or denial, adding to the number of those born by chance or without any traits obviously evident in the parents. My four dwarfs are all I can realistically and financially handle, but this summer I turned down adopting FOUR more dwarfs. Some were born to breeders that had done their homework, others were not. Each of these dwarfs were either in my state, or our tri-state corner, not necessarily breeding farms. For living in a remote corner of Wyoming where miniatures are not prevalent, those odds are way too high.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

[

....dwarf traits does not mean the horse is a dwarf, but possible may be a carrier.

. [/color]

I think that is simply what many of us well at least myself are trying to say POSSIBLE CARRIER

relic I wanted to add I am thankful to you for allowing this post to continue, to hearing everyones thoughts and not being defensive even if you disagree with them.

The one thing we can all agree on no matter what is there is always something to learn from threads like this and again I appreciate your willingness being open to allow this thread to keep going.

THANKS FOR THAT

 

[horsehug]

Relic,

Add me to all those who posted that he is gorgeous, stunning, or other synonyms )

I LOVE him!!!

I personally really hope John Eberth comes up with a dwarf gene test before too many years go by.

And yes I would certainly have my minis tested.

After all, if we only bred carriers to "tested" non carriers we would NEVER produce dwarfs. This assumption is based on John's belief that it Is an autosomal recessive gene.

And we would not have to worry about removing many beautiful stunning correct horses from the gene pool just because they were carriers..... like some choose to do now.

I have learned the most about dwarfism from lots of discussions with both John and Tony and value their experience and knowledge and studies so very much.

I also believe that minis can certainly carry a dwarf gene and not show ANY dwarf signs.

Susan O.

 

[LaraP]

I think the above stallion is very pretty and I like that kind of head personally. We BOUGHT two horses and had one shown in 2006 and one shown in 2007. both tiny little stallions. I was told by both of our trainers that the tiny one's just don't win. Well, I think they did just fine The little ones seem to always get a bad rap, not only in the breeding shed but also in the RING. This year we had a dwarf, first one we ever had, and talk about a heart breaking experience. And the mare and stallion this dwarf came from both were TALL horses. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. But I would use the horse in question in a second, but just not to any tiny mares, not that I would fear he would throw a dwarf, but I would want some height on my babies in case they were fillies.

JMO

Lara P

2006 SHOW HORSE under 28"

2007 SHOW HORSE under 28" in fact he is 26 1/4

 

[nootka]

I would love to see photos of horses that had no signs who produced dwarfs. In every instance, I would need to see both sire and dam, as I fully believe it may well be coming from one horse alone (or I could very well be wrong).

In my informal observations, I have never seen one where I was allowed to see both parents that I could not see where the foal's deformities came from.

To me, dwarf characteristics are undesirable. I have heard others say certain things about them are "cute" such as turned up noses or domed heads, etc. etc. but to me, they are very homely and disturbing, so I would want to avoid them anyway.

I do not bias against horses because of height. I would love to see a 26" horse with the same proportions as a 38" horse, heck, I'd love to see any horse with the proportions of a full-sized (insert your big horse breed of choice), but if we keep overlooking proportionate disparity in the pursuit of extreme small stature/color/bloodline, we're never going to get anywhere close.

I may be a little extreme in my discrimination, but I don't have room for error. I truly believe none of my breeding horses shows any more than what could be considered slight resemblance to any dwarf characteristic. I realize that some may be very distantly related to horses who were known dwarfs, but I see no (domed heads, very short legs to long backs, etc.) traits in my stock that I currently have.

If there were any forum members brave enough to show both sire and dam of dwarfs born, it would be so helpful to all of us. I would do so with the filly I posted on the photo gallery, but I don't own either horse.

Liz M.

 

[horsehug]

Liz,

This little stallion of mine has produced dwarfs before but I do not own the mares so can only post him.

When I showed him briefly back in my showing days, Sami Scheuring REALLY liked him (gave him Reserve CH out of 11 stallions with ME showing him) and told me if I had someone show him (meaning a trainer) she thought he would do really well. (I do NOT show well or enjoy it!) But that of course is only one judge's opinion.

He does have a perfect bite, straight legs, and almost no dish to his head (the thing I wish was different).

He has incredible movement. I had another judge tell me I really needed to promote him in driving after he watched him drive. (Again the opinion of the only judge who ever saw him drive.)

While he is certainly not perfect, I do not see any "dwarf" characteristics.

Susan O.

 

[Relic]

Thanks everyone especially Margo for wearing herself out writting that book

l have no hard feelings on this subject. l'm far from perfect no different then the minis here on the farm..and yes thanks all l know about gelding gelding gelding.

 

[RainSong]

[

....dwarf traits does not mean the horse is a dwarf, but possible may be a carrier.

. [/color]

I think that is simply what many of us well at least myself are trying to say POSSIBLE CARRIER

Make it easy. Minimal Dwarf Characteristics=Possible carrier.

Okay guys. If dwarfism in horses is like rabbits, I'll simplify and explain.

One dwarf gene is fine. It makes a nice small rabbit- these are your Netherland Dwarves, Mini Rexes, Holland Lops, Polish (not all, but some), Lionheads, Mini Lops, etc. The dwarf gene restricts the size, in simple terms.

However, you can get "Big uglies" even from dwarves- that is, rabbits who don't carry the dwarf gene at all. They do NOT get as big as the meat breeds, but do "go over" size for the rabbit standards. These animals are terrific for breeding, but bad for showing.

Two dwarf genes = A Peanut. That is, an animal which is born small, runty, and most often dies within the first week of life. There are also things called "max factor" kits, which are caused by other things, but resemble "peanuts".

NOW, if it is the same, then a single dwarf gene in minis would equal "minimal dwarf" or "dwarf characteristics" (as it seems the two are interchangeable depending on who we ask here). Two dwarf genes would bring about a full blown dwarf.

That is really really simplified.

*****

What I think needs to be done is there needs to be a solid discussion on what makes a dwarf, what is a dwarf characteristic, and what is not, and WHY. I have seen a lot of posts saying X is dwarf/dwarfy, while others go by without comment who look similar. It's confusing even to me, who's not entirely a newbie, and it seems that not everyone has the same idea of what is a dwarf, and what is a dwarf characteristic... thus, it's causing masses of confusion.

Yep, I dared (oh my gosh, I don't even own a mini, and never have) to speak up. LOL I'll go get some steaks to put on the flames now

 

[outlawridge]

What I think needs to be done is there needs to be a solid discussion on what makes a dwarf, what is a dwarf characteristic, and what is not, and WHY. I have seen a lot of posts saying X is dwarf/dwarfy, while others go by without comment who look similar. It's confusing even to me, who's not entirely a newbie, and it seems that not everyone has the same idea of what is a dwarf, and what is a dwarf characteristic... thus, it's causing masses of confusion.

RainSong, on the Photo/Video part of the forum Nootka started a post about her "almost dwarf" and invited others to post photos etc. I replied with several photos of each of our four dwarfs in an attempt to show examples of dwarf characteristics in actual "full blown" dwarfs, that we are trying to identify and check for in "normal" miniatures. What the photos show is mainly the bulgy domed forehead, short face, wide set eyes, small muzzle, and misplaced nostrils. My purpose is to attempt to help people identify what is being referred to as dwarf traits by showing actual dwarfs.

 

[Littleum]

There's a difference between plain old conformation faults and being a dwarf.

Not every leg deviation, long back or big ol' funky head is a dwarf. I've seen plenty of Apps that would qualify in that case.

 

[Magic]

NO....most of the smaller minis do NOT look as "in porportion" as the taller ones. But....they have come a looooong way the last 20 years since I've been into Minis, and that is a testiment to the dedicated breeders & their integrity in honestly trying to better the breed, and breed the best to the best. I have no doubt that the smaller Miniatures will continue to get better & better.... and there will always be people who love them, and those who will not.

I just want to say here, that though I personally prefer owning the taller miniatures, I really am awed by those beautiful and balanced tiny ones (like yours Donna, among many others) and though those aren't the kind I want to raise myself, I hold those that do in the highest regard because I realize just how tough it must be to keep breeding for very small, and very nice, all in the same package.

 

[nootka]

There's a difference between plain old conformation faults and being a dwarf.
Not every leg deviation, long back or big ol' funky head is a dwarf. I've seen plenty of Apps that would qualify in that case.

That was never my point. HOWEVER, there is a "look" that many dwarfs have, that when you combine some of these faults, you add up to dwarf or "carrier" if there is such a thing.

I am of the hope that we will have a genetic test, and all my theories based on observation and guesstimation will be either all wrong, partly wrong, partly right, or whatever. I have no delusion that I am all in the right, only doing my best with the tools I have.

If you add up those three: leg deviation, long back and a large, funky head, chances are you have a dwarf on your hands and you w are not seeing the forest for the trees if you are breeding one to another. There are different types of dwarfs, and I don't think it's right to breed the long-backed type to the short-backed type just because they are so different, though I observe it being done.

The problem with dwarfism is that everyone hides the results or the causes, so noone ever sees what truly happened.

I've visited more than a few farms where I was privvy to the whole truth either unintentionally or intentionally and I would say that in 9 cases out of 10, you could see why the foal was what it was (a dwarf), either from minimally deformed parent(s), or severely deformed ones.

It is not a crime to not breed a horse because it has a bad leg, either, it just doesn't necessarily mean it is a dwarf. There is more than one aspect, and it takes a great deal of understanding of proportion to see what might really be wrong.

Liz M.

 

[J&HMinis]

Well, I just love him..... AND.... I own a half brother and half sister. I LOVE the Legacy bloodlines. I bet he is just as sweet as my two