Dwarfism and stud services.

[Lizzie]

I was thinking after reading Tremor's post re her dwarf carriers, about breeding to outside stallions. So you have a nice mare who has never produced a dwarf. You breed her to the stallion of your dreams, for a stud fee. Resulting foal is a dwarf. In some types of dwarfism, this tells the breeder that both his mare and the famous stallion she was bred to, are carriers. So what does one do? Has anyone had this happen? Is the stud fee returned? Does the average breeder make this type of thing public?

I'm sure we all know of one stallion who was used extensively and was a dwarf, but reading about it, the problem seems to run in many or all lines of Minis and can pop up when one least expects it. Horrid situation but I wonder how breeders with extensive well known lines or horses, deal with it.

Lizzie

 

[Eagle]

Touch wood, my little guy has never produced any dwarf foals but I would be prepared to retire him with no problems what so ever. As for refunding I am not sure how I would do it but I think I would try to have the foal to make sure it gets all the necessary care it needs for it's whole life. (Italians are not very good as far as animals are concerned and there are very few people here who understand much about horses.)

 

[Jill]

It hurts to even think about what you've outlined. It would be emotionally shattering on so many sides of the fence. I do not own any "famous" stallions but truly value the ones I do own just as much as I would if they were household names. If we found one of them carried this tragic gene, he would be gelded.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Depends on the contract the stallion owner has, and how ethical they are. And, how educated. If they feel dwarfism is an attribute, not a detriment, no argument is going to convince them to stop breeding and making money.

 

[Eagle]

Depends on the contract the stallion owner has, and how ethical they are. And, how educated. If they feel dwarfism is an attribute, not a detriment, no argument is going to convince them to stop breeding and making money.

Very true yet very sad

 

[targetsmom]

Just another reason why a test for dwarfism is so important. Wouldn't it be great to be able to put in your breeding contract (and your ads) that there is a 100% guarantee that no dwarfs will result from the breeding?

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

To protect yourself from unethical breeders have it stated in the contract what you do/don't want, it's that simple. If the stallion owner won't agree I guess keep looking?

As I breeder, I've researched the different bloodlines over the past twelve years, and while it's not 100% possible to eliminate dwarfism just with 'research' at this point (testing will make the difference), I do try. Having access to the AMHA and AMHR studbooks is mandatory IMHO for a breeder. Question and look at the horse up-line from your breeding stock. Woody one of our first geldings all 38" of him has horrid hooves, just awful. I found out later his sire had a number of dwarfs or fugly foals. Fortunately Woody is a pet, but people say 'dwarf', I say look at his conformation. He's a big guy, but bad hooves, a tad short neck, etc. Not enough to be a screaming dwarf, but knowing his history, well I'm glad he's a gelding!

There is also the possibility that some lines - Bond Tiny Tim > Bond Jocko may not have inherited the dwarf gene. He's had too many highly successful downlineexample) Bond Dynamo > Rhotens Showbiz & Rhotens Little Dandy > too many to count NC/World Champions, etc.

What I find reprehensible is breeders that have a dwarf born yearly, but excuse it as the other foals born are nice. Hello! Your other ones 'maybe' a carrier! Sorry I won't buy from them, and if I suspect a breeder is hiding that information, I red flag their breeding program.

There are also environmental factors that can lead to dwarfism, not a predominance over genetics, but I don't think it should be ruled out either.

The other thing to consider, is breeding 30-40+ years ago was striving to produce the smallest Mini (not necessarily the most correct in the beginning!). They were shaping a 'breed', and while I don't condone using dwarfs for breeding, I see why it was done. Dwarfs and the smallest would be selected. Now we're more educated and would rather have a taller Mini than worry about dwarfism. The best bet, be educated, know your stock and the stock of people you choose to breed or buy from, and if the dread 'dwarf' pops up nip it in the bud!

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

While you are very correct Michelle, do keep in mind the mare owner has NO authority to dictate a contract. They can make recommendations and offer compromise with whatever the stallion owner has published, but if you disagree you have no grounds to make your own contact. That's the stallion owner's job.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Too answer your question no I don't think the stallion owner has the right to refund your money, UNLESS it was written in contract that if the resulting foal is a dwarf then your money will be refunded. Honestly if the owner of the stallion is a repituable breeder the best thing to do for everyone would be to geld the stallion that produced the dwarf. Imagine how hard that would be on its own. I've only seen one person pubically say that their stallion produced a dwarf and he was then gelded. Those are your responsible breeders. However I honestly can't blame anyone for not pubically coming out and say my stallion throws dwarfs, especially one thats a show winner, but the right thing to do is to geld them.

You have to look at it on both sides though. Mare owners should also have their responibility and not breed back the mare. Everyone is too quickly to blame the stallion and don't blame the mare as well.

 

[Lizzie]

I think Diane, it is often incredibly difficult to inform someone, that their horse, dog etc., might be carrying something awful. I have had the experience twice in dogs. Both dogs were purchased. Neither breeder was happy about my decision to tell them. Neither would speak to me about it and continued to breed their dogs. Both dogs cost me large sums and I actually finished one to his championship, before discovering his problem.

Maybe though these days and with the advent of computers, breeders are more aware of problems and (maybe) a little more open to dealing with them. And there again, maybe that's wishful thinking. Certainly we are all more educated than in the past, if we choose to do our homework before becoming a breeder.

Lizzie

 

[Minimor]

I've often thought that in Miniatures where the dwarf gene does exist and can often "hide" so that no one knows it is there until a dwarf foal pops out, stallion service contracts should perhaps specify what will be done for the mare owner if the resulting foal turns out to be a dwarf.

If there is no such guarantee made then the stallion owner is not obligated to refund money or provide a different stallion for rebreeding. (Though some surely will.) If there is a guarantee written into the contract then the wording of that contract should govern what happens when the foal is a dwarf--full refund? partial refund? Rebreeding to a different stallion? (Personally if I were that stallion owner I would also specify that any such rebreeding must be for a different mare--because I do not believe in continuing to breed a known dwarf producer).

A couple years ago I tried a new stallion on one mare--this was a stallion we had purchased as a foal, grew him up & really liked him, so we thought we'd try one breeding with him. We thought we'd get a really nice foal from the cross, because the mare had produced several very nice foals for us by 3 different stallions and this young stallion was a very nice fellow. The resulting foal was a big disappointment--he's a nice colt in most ways, he is not a dwarf, but he was born with a rather bad underbite. That underbite did not straighten up as he grew and it is never going to improve. His sire, the young stallion that we liked so well, has been gelded. His mother will not be bred again either--if there is any chance she contributed that off bite then she will not have any more foals for us.

I have often thought that in situations like this--where a mare owner gets a dwarf foal from an outside breeding, or where a buyer gets rooked into buying a dwarf foal, with the dwarfism becoming more & more obvious as the foal grows up--if the stallion owner or seller is rude when told that the foal is a dwarf...if it were me I would simply post ads, with photos, thanking the seller/breeder/stallion owner for the beautiful show quality foal...include the name of the sire/dam--if you say nothing but good things and let the photo do the real talking...it's all good.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Sadly, I am very familiar with this exact situation. It happened to me. This is a link to the thread about it at the time it happened. Rereading the thread tonight was just as heartbreaking for me as it was when it happened.

Link to Corona dwarf foal thread

In my case, this foal was the first live foal I'd had from this stallion. At the time of this foaling, he was running with a few of my mares as well as a couple of outside mares that were here for breeding. All mares were given lutalyse and I refunded every cent the outside mare owners had paid to me, including board.

It's been over 2 years and I've had a lot of time to think about my situation. I believe my decision to geld Corona was absolutely the right one. I also believe he had produced dwarves previously, but I was not informed of it. And the worst part of the whole horrible situation is that roughly 6 months after the difficult birth, the mare passed away to an unknown cause. She never was the same after the diifuclt birth. She never really regained her appetite, never was her fiesty, normal self. Her owners had her under a vet's care for months and nothing definitive was ever discovered. Such a tragedy all around.

ETA: I realized I didn't answer some of your initial questions...

Obviously, I felt the need to make my situation public about MY stallion because dwarfism is something I feel VERY STRONGLY about. To me, it's the plague of our breed. However, even though I had the mare owner's permission to name them, They are part of this site, but don't post much. I left that up to them.

When I owned Spirit, I was so confident that he did NOT carry the gene, that I offerend a guarantee in my breeding contract. However, if he ever had produced a dwarf, I would have done the same with him and gelded him in an instant as I believe no one horse is worth the pain, suffering and detriment to the breed as a whole. I do not believe, as the stallion onwer, I would have the right to name the mare, but that's just me. Although I feel so strongly about this subject, and that believe system gets me in trouble at times

, I am not going to "out" someone else. Their integrity is up to them; I can only control myself and my actions.