Dominant White Gen

[Epona Stable Belgium]

I need some help...

If you have a horse who carrie's just the Dominant white gen (not LWO positif) who is not a white colored horse.

For info: if you cross 2 Dominant White gens you get an LWO gen.

If you cross that horse with a horse who carries the red gen, can you have a Perlino,cremello???

I looked on the color coat calculator but think it's not in the options

-->Just global, if you cross a Dominant white gen with any other gen, what can you have as results??

Thank's a lot!

[SIZE=8pt][/SIZE]

(sorry if I made some mistakes)

 

[Dona]

I need some help...
If you have a horse who carrie's just the Dominant white gen (not LWO positif) who is not a white colored horse.

For info: if you cross 2 Dominant White gens you get an LWO gen.

If you cross that horse with a horse who carries the red gen, can you have a Perlino,cremello???

I looked on the color coat calculator but think it's not in the options

-->Just global, if you cross a Dominant white gen with any other gen, what can you have as results??

Thank's a lot!

[SIZE=8pt][/SIZE]

(sorry if I made some mistakes)

I'm confused as to what you are asking.

By "Dominant white" do you mean "Max White Sabino"? That is an entirely different gene from LWO.

What you would get by crossing a "Max White Sabino" on another horse, would depend on the color of that horse it's crossed with. If you cross it with a horse that doesn't carry the Sabino gene, the resulting foal would get one copy of the Sabino gene, which would either put white markings on the face and/or legs, or put Sabino roaning on the horse. The actual "color" of the foal would depend on what base colors the parents are. The only way you could get a pure white, is to cross the Max White Sabino with another horse that carries at least one copy of the Sabino gene.

You can only get a LWO by passing it from a LWO + horse. The "white" gene you are talking about has nothing to do with it.

The only way you can get a cremello or perlino, is by crossing two horses together who both carry the creme gene (palomino, buckskin, cremello, perlino, smokey black, etc.) Then they BOTH have to PASS that creme gene so the resulting horse gets TWO copies of it, to result in a cremello or perlino.

Cremello is the result of the 2 creme genes on a red horse

Perlino is the result of the creme gene on a bay or buckskin horse

 

[Carolyn R]

If you mean double dilute like perlino and cremello, and cross it with a red horse, you will get a palomino or maybe a buckskin, smokey black...... In any case you will get a horse with one dilute gene, you would not get a red (sorrel) horse, but you could get a palomino which is a red horse with1 dilute gene. If you cross a palomino ,with a double dilute you have the chance to get a perlino(as long as one parent carries agouti) or a cremello.

Carolyn

 

[Ashley]

or as in the grey gene?

 

[CheyAut]

I'm also confused by your question....

There IS dominant white, but I don't think it exists in minis? I could sure be wrong... Rabbit??? You out there?

I know it exists in TBs though. The other posters already covered the rest

Jessi

 

[Epona Stable Belgium]

The best of all... I'm also confused

I made research on maximum sabino, and Dominant White.

They both have the pink skin.

Does white exist??? you have the grey horses who will turn into white with black skin, but a white one with pink skin is it white???

It's about a cross with a grey one, That horse produced a white foal with pink skin... and I'm just wondering what color that foal can be(Perlino,Cremello or really white?)

So its Grey X Black (maybe sabino/ red carrier don't know) = White foal or can it be cream? Perlino? etc?

What I learned is that the grey gens are dominant on any other color like pinto and appaloosa...

So why is this foal white and not grey?

The grey horse is a crossing between a black stallion and a white mare with a roan spot in her neck.

I hope you can follow me?

I'm far away to be a pro... just hope to understand this foals color...

She's completly white...

About that grey horse, it has a halfbrother who is called ''white'' has pink skin... one blue eye. sire black and Dam Roan but turned into white and produced an overo foal.

 

[Epona Stable Belgium]

The best what I can do is to test the horse no?

I don't have the permission yet to post pictures to explain... that's easier.

 

[Carolyn R]

Okay, it is possible that the grey was a single dilute before it greyed out (palomino, smokey black, buckskin)but lost all its color when it greyed. The black may also be a smokey black,very hard to differentiate from a true black, if the offspring gained a cream gene from each parent,it could be a double dilute, thus a horse that appears white with blue eyes. In this case, the foal will have blue eyes, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Carolyn

 

[shelia]

A foal that has both the silver gene and the gray gene can be born pure white. I don't know anything about a dominant white gene. How old is this foal?

 

[love_casper]

First of all, there IS a dominant white gene, it is NOT LETHAL and it doesn't exist in the miniature horse breed. The only way to get a Lethal White Overo Syndrome foal is to breed two LWO carriers together. I only know of 3 breeds that have the dominant white gene and none are common, I can't even pronounce them, let alone spell them.

There are plenty of other ways to get a phenotypical white horse: maximum white sabino, other maximum pinto, double dilute, some fewspot appaloosas look pretty darn white to me, pale palomino, grey, some champagnes...?

A grey horse could be absolutely anything before it greyed out. So we crossed the grey horse with a black horse and got basically a "white" foal correct?

Well the foal could be any number of things:

1. Perhaps the grey carried one of the pinto genes that causes blue eyes. Maybe the foal is a pale palomino pinto with blue eyes, the pinto could cause pink skin, thus making the foal look white.

2. The grey could have been a dilute prior to greying out. Blacks can hide one cream gene so the black parent may be smokey black. When bred together they could have produced a double dilute (cremello, perlino, smokey cream).

3. There are 3 different kinds of Sabino genes. Sabino 1 in homozygous form produces maximum white sabinos - all white with pink skin.

4. Grey progresses in different stages individual to each horse. Some are born solid and in their lifetime only get to the dapple grey stage. Some are fully progressed in utero and are completely greyed out by the time they are born. Although, grey is unlike other depigmentation genes in that it doesn't effect skin color, it's usually dark. But the base color may have had pink skin so....

Most of those were far-fetched, but possible. My bet is that the horse is a double dilute.

To find out for sure, test for cream - if it comes back homozygous (CrCr) then you have a double dilute. You could also test for grey and sabino 1 as a point of interest.

 

[Dona]

OK.....lets make this simple.

The foal is white with pink skin. Does it have blue eyes? If not, it can't be a cremello or perlino, and is probably a Max White Sabino.

Since it has pink skin....it can't be a light Palomino or any other color that has dark skin.

If it does have blue eyes, Cremello or Perlino are both possibilites....but a Max White Sabino is also a possibility if it also carries Splash or Frame (both blue eye producers).

Gray is not a color....but a pattern of white hairs scattered thru a horses coat, that progresses until the horse is completely white. That being said....a gray can start out ANY color, so they don't always have dark skin. If a "Gray" started out as Cremello or Perlino, they would have pink skin. A Gray horse will have the color skin that the horse's "true" color would have.

You said this foal is a result of black x gray.

IF the black is actually a "Smokey Black" and carries the creme gene....

and IF the gray's base color was Palomino or another creme carrying color...

and IF the foal has blue eyes....

THEN, it's possible that the foal is a double dilute (Cremello or Perlino)

Otherwise.....I'd say Max White Sabino

 

[Epona Stable Belgium]

Thank you all!!!

They grey horse also gave a pinto foal, both foals are from this year

I think he has some surprises for us.

It can be sure that the sire of the grey one has the cream gen...

I promise you to show you the pictures of the foals and the grey one himself.

It's because we are almost buying the horse, and I prefere not yet to give the names to keep the privacy of the owners... hope you understand that?

I can't wait!!!

Thank you everybody!!!!!! you are al so friendly!!!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Basically your original information was incorrect.

As has been stated there is no DW in Miniatures, (and DW horse often do not look white anyway, so I have NO idea why they decided to call it Dominant White, yet another misnomer because, heaven knows, we do not have enough already!!)

There are a number of ways you can get a horse that appears to be white, Silver + Grey is the most obvious in this case, but so long as you are buying the horse because you like him and he is what you want, you should be OK as colour/pattern is secondary to conformation, ability and temperament every time.

 

[Epona Stable Belgium]

Thank you rabbitzfizz!

So Dominant white we may exclude in the miniature horse worldt?

Great, that's just so headbreaking!!

I adore his color, he also has a verry pretty head!!

We are just waiting a video to see him move and than we will take our descision, but we are not bying him because of his color's in he's genes but because he is so pretty and I hope he will be a great showhorse!! He has a huge fantastic pedigree!

I don't need that extra color even if he gives me grey foals I'll be happy, I love grey horses!!!

Thank's all!!

Have a nice weekend!!!

 

[Dona]

As Rabbit said, a horse who gets both the silver & gray gene, will often be born white. But they will have PINK skin ONLY if they inherit two copies of the creme gene as well. Most times, Silver-Whites have dark skin.

 

[Epona Stable Belgium]

Hi Dona,

That's what I also think, not a pink skin...

Do you think that foal have al those color's? Silver, Grey and Cream maybe?

We can call the colors like white-cream and white-silver? or am I totally wrong?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

A horse can have ALL the colours and patterns under the sun, all in one go...it would be very interesting to find one and just try to think of a way of describing the colour/pattern!!!!

But yes, a double dilute can also have Black Red Silver Appy all the Pinto patterns and Grey and basically all you would see would be a very puzzled, white horse!!

 

[Dona]

Hi Dona,
That's what I also think, not a pink skin...

Do you think that foal have al those color's? Silver, Grey and Cream maybe?

We can call the colors like white-cream and white-silver? or am I totally wrong?

Well.....I'm not sure how they refer to colors in other countries. But over here.....

A horse who is a "double-dilute" (two copies of the creme gene) and has blue eyes, and is an off-white or creme color, would be called a Cremello or Perlino. (or Smokey Creme, if it's a double dilute on black)

A horse that carries both the Silver gene and the Gray gene & appears "white", would be called a "Silver-White".

A totally white horse with pink skin who carries two copies of Sabino, would be called a "Max White Sabino".

Of course, other patterns may be involved on these horses as well, which would complicate things.

For instance....you could have ONE horse who "carries" both red & black.

And it could also carry these "dilution genes"

Silver

Cremello

The "modifer" Agouti

As well as these "patterns of white"

Gray

Sabino

Frame

Tobiano

Splash

Now......if you tried to describe the "genetic" color of this horse, it would be very long. It would be a "Silver-White Buckskin Sabino, Frame, Tobiano & Splash"

If you just wanted to describe it's "visual" color.......just call it white.

 

[Lewella]

Re: Dominant White

What the latest research (and research in almost every species of mammal) calls "dominant white" is really sabino spotting patterns. Just a matter of symantics - dominant white = sabino in the horse world. There are 5 different sabino type spotting genes that have been isolated to date. The tests for FOUR of them are not available to the public and are called "dominant white" by the researchers who isolated them. Of those four (I'll have to double check this - it's been a while since I read the research) I believe two were lethal to the embryo shortly after conception but they DO NOT produce a live foal that dies (not lethal white!). All five sabino type spotting genes are KIT mutations (as are Tobiano, part of the Leopard complex, and True Roan - Splash is also believed to be a KIT mutation. Frame is the only white pattern know to not be a KIT mutation - it is on a different chromosome). To date the only sabino test that has been done in Miniatures is Sb1 and there are positive individuals. There are possibly positive individuals for other mutations also but since the tests are not publically available it may be a very long time before we know for sure.

Re: Accelerated Graying

This can happen on ANY base color! It is a myth that gray + silver will result in a horse that is born gray or grays very quickly. There are many, many gray + silver individuals who gray at a more average rate. Accellerated graying does tend to run in families and this is likely where this myth had its birth.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Thanks for the update on "Dominant" White Lewella, I had suspected this to be the case, and could not work out why they would call them "white" when they quite obviously were not...oh well, back to the drawing board, I suppose, just when I was getting my head round the fact that there was white I find out that there isn't after all.

The published article was very misleading, though.

I don't agree about the Silver + Grey bit, BTW, but then it would be a strange world if everyone did agree.

But it definitely is not a "myth", it does have some fact behind it!!!

I understand about Greying speed being genetic, this goes beyond that, though.