Cryptorchidism

[jlh]

I think there is a a part of the issue that is being overlooked here.

that is the issue that in many smaller equines, the inguinal ring remains more open for a much longer time, allowing for the testes to travel up & down.

while they can be palpated, you have an entirely different issue to deal with at gelding. with an open ring, it is possible for the gut to herniate. while it is possible for a vet to be prepared for this, it takes a lot longer to deal with, and creates a greater risk of infection since the incision must be stitched, limiting drainage.

So I highly recommend that a vet not only palpate to locate the testes, but check the size of the ring while doing so. this may be the more important indicator of when to perform the gelding with the least amount of side-effects.

not to mention, the degree of comfort the vet will have with the procedure.

 

[Becky]

Yes,
it's a problem and as long as there are breeders who think it's okay to have a "late bloomer" left as a stallion then the problem isn't going to go away. We get what we allow ! I for sure wouldn't allow one of these horses in my breeding program nor would I buy from someone who thinks it's okay. It's a genetic fault that's being allowed.

A horse either has two testicles down through the inguinal ring or it doesn't. Period. There is no such thing as a 'late bloomer'. A horse can get larger testicles WHICH ARE EASIER TO PALPATE as it matures and is used for breeding, but it had two to start with.

A horse can, in fact, be a monorchid and be able to sire foals. Only one testicle down (one testicle down in the scrotum, one in the abdomen). I would not use one in my breeding program.

 

[albahurst]

Thanks for that. The vet looked at him several weeks ago because I wanted to have him gelded straight away so we could get the recovery over and get started on him for Nationals. The vet said he couldn't find them. In fact, he asked if I was sure the horse hadn't already been gelded. If you spend 5 mintues with the colt around a mare, you know for sure he hasn't. My husband (it's his horse, afterall) checks Armani very often to see if they have made an appearance yet, but still nothing. I'm going to have him read this thread and see if maybe Armani is just keeping them in a strange place, like Ruffian suggested.

If all else fails, maybe we'll go for a long trailer ride. lol!

I think the latest I dare to wait for them to drop conventionally would be November. That would have him at 18 months old. If I wait any later than that, I'm afraid that the weather will get bad and he'll be trapped inside during recovery and I don't want that. I also don't want to go through the winter with him as a stallion, if I can avoid it at all.

We have already had some excitement from a stallion standpoint. The 17 hand WB mare jumped out of her pasture one morning and came into the barn. The walls of Armani's stall are about 4' high and he reared up, hooked his feet over the wall, and was trying to climb out to 'visit' with her. That has only happened the one time, but it really scared us and we just need to get the hormone thing under control before there are any accidents.

Recovery from Crypt surgery will be different than from regular gelding surgery. He will most likely need a couple of days of stall rest before being allowed to run around. I would say, get yourself a great vet who knows how to do crypt surgery and the correct follow up so that you don't experience post op problems.

 

[MountainMeadows]

It would be interesting to find out what people feel is a "late bloomer"?

Not dropping until 6 months?

Not dropping until 1 year?

Not dropping until 18 months?

Not dropping until 24 months?

Over 24 months?

I am just curious as to what people believe is acceptable and what is a "late bloomer" - I am not adept at doing polls but maybe this could be a topic that someone could start.

Just so people know where I am coming from - I am OK with my stallions not having easily palpated testicles up until about 15 months - and by easy, I mean obviously there, nice firm grape/walnut sized berries, not little frozen peas!

 

[albahurst]

I agree with you Stacie- I might wait until 18 months, but that is it.

 

[stormy]

Determining what a "late bloomer" is depends on your defination. As several have said often both testes are there but it takes an experianced individual to find them....not all animals mature at the same pace so the testicles may not be palpable to the average owner until they are 2 or older but may have been normally descended for their size their entire lives. Many minis are labeled as cryptorcid that are not because of the difficulty of finding the little beggers!

However that said I do not breed if there are not two there I, or my vet can find!

 

[Charlotte]

Talking about chryptorchids and not passing it on..........don't forget the mares.

Charlotte

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I think there is a a part of the issue that is being overlooked here.

that is the issue that in many smaller equines, the inguinal ring remains more open for a much longer time, allowing for the testes to travel up & down.

while they can be palpated, you have an entirely different issue to deal with at gelding. with an open ring, it is possible for the gut to herniate. while it is possible for a vet to be prepared for this, it takes a lot longer to deal with, and creates a greater risk of infection since the incision must be stitched, limiting drainage.

So I highly recommend that a vet not only palpate to locate the testes, but check the size of the ring while doing so. this may be the more important indicator of when to perform the gelding with the least amount of side-effects.

not to mention, the degree of comfort the vet will have with the procedure.

We had 1 do that and the vet was not prepared for it. We almost lost him but thanfully he pulled thru. This paticular vet said it is also a genetic disorder but not sure if it is or not.

In reality all foals should have theirs for the moment they are born. It all matters if the ring is fully closed or not. Trust me you don't want to take that chance. I also believe it can pass on and should be something to avoid, and I also believe if mares have problems staying in foal they should not be bred. It all comes down to stopping all these genetic defects or do we let it continue. Quite frankly there are nicer ones out there mare or stallions they don't have to breed.

I think the easiest way to tell if they have fully dropped or not is to have the vet give them a sedative and turn them on their back and look. That way they are competely relaxed and if the vet can't find them then you may have a problem.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I think there is a a part of the issue that is being overlooked here.

that is the issue that in many smaller equines, the inguinal ring remains more open for a much longer time, allowing for the testes to travel up & down.

while they can be palpated, you have an entirely different issue to deal with at gelding. with an open ring, it is possible for the gut to herniate. while it is possible for a vet to be prepared for this, it takes a lot longer to deal with, and creates a greater risk of infection since the incision must be stitched, limiting drainage.

So I highly recommend that a vet not only palpate to locate the testes, but check the size of the ring while doing so. this may be the more important indicator of when to perform the gelding with the least amount of side-effects.

not to mention, the degree of comfort the vet will have with the procedure.

Can you please provide some supporting documentation, like a website where you read this, name of the vet that told you this information, etc? It would be interesting to see what information is out there.

 

[sdmini]

I have a very good vet, even though we are his only mini clients he does lots of reading on them. Now according to him minis have a tendency to drop later than other breeds and should not be a big concern until two-three years of age. Generally speaking for us however we have no issues, yesterday we had several weanlings gelded and all testicles were "present and accounted for".

He also charges $25 for a mini gelding procedure...did I mention I like my vet.

 

[Mini Wonders Farm]

I feel I need to clear things up.

 

First, I'm an average owner of four years. I knew very little about chryptorchidism, until I bought this horse, I bought him at a auction, I had only went to a few before an thought I got crooked on the sale. Thinking I was stuck with a horse with a problem. I researched on the web and found a breeder with 25 years experience with miniatures. Turns out that it's a common thing with miniature stallions, just because people including some vets think of them as if they are just like the big horses, which isn't the case. Miniature horses have other unique situations like a routinely born foal unable to break out of it's amniotic sac, you never hear that happening to big horses. It all boils down to SIZE, everything is smaller!!

 

I've heard of people paying big money to have the laparoscope surgery done for their young stallions only to find out it wasn't needed, just a little more time was all. Now for me I couldn't have done this because it was to far away. So of course I was very happy I wouldn't have to worry about that.

 

Now my horse, he has great bloodlines and had already bred at least one mare I know of. The big name farm was actuality encouraging the use of this horse. Now I wonder if it was us all along who was thinking, he was retaining a testicle!

 

By the way, he sired a colt with both testicles down at birth!

 

[miniwhinny]

I think there is a a part of the issue that is being overlooked here.

that is the issue that in many smaller equines, the inguinal ring remains more open for a much longer time, allowing for the testes to travel up & down.

Then if this is the issue...perhaps it's this fault we're allowing to be passed on because as Rabbit is always telling us...this problem does NOT occur in the U.K. and they for sure have tiny equines. I would be interested to know if it is being found in some of the imported U.S. horses over there.

 

[Sue_C.]

He also charges $25 for a mini gelding procedure...did I mention I like my vet.

Holy crap...here it is closer to TWO HUNDRED and $25!!!!!!!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Can you please provide some supporting documentation, like a website where you read this, name of the vet that told you this information, etc? It would be interesting to see what information is out there.

Parmela when we gelded my gelding it was very hard to tell if he was dropped or not, we felt like we could feel them they were just very small. The vet tried to feel for them and he couldn't really tell for sure but I guess he felt confident enough to do the procedure. Alot of stuff went wrong that day and needless to say the end result was he got up to fast and his intestines came out. We were very fortunate that there were 2 guys who chose to stay behind to see the miniatures were able to hold his legs up and to keep him on his back for the vet to stuff the intestines back in or he would had to put our horse down. Needless to say we had to do emergancy surgery from another vet. However this vet said that it could happen if the ring was not fully closed but he does not see that happen very often at all. He said to us it was a genetic defect.

I'm thrilled to still have my boy, but it certaintly does make me leary on gelding anything that young again and he was a older weanling.

 

[txminipinto]

Can you please provide some supporting documentation, like a website where you read this, name of the vet that told you this information, etc? It would be interesting to see what information is out there.

I can verify this information. As a Registered Veterinary Technician at Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine, I have personally asked a boarded surgeon to geld a 3 month old colt that was getting too studdy. Only after verifying that the testicles were down and the rings where closed or closing, would they agree to geld the colt. Tomorrow, I can find documentation of the risk if needed (I'm heading home).

 

[Sue_C.]

I have personally asked a boarded surgeon to geld a 3 month old colt that was getting too studdy. Only after verifying that the testicles were down and the rings where closed or closing, would they agree to geld the colt.

There is nothing unusual about that...the vet should always ensure the testicles are down, and the ring closed prior to gelding...I think what the question was...is it a more common problem in miniatures?

If so, I am in the agreement that it is because too many breeders choose to keep "late bloomers" as stallions, which passes that on to future generations. If this practice were stopped, I think there would be a large increase in younger geld-able mini colts.

As said by JMS Miniature's vet...

He said to us it was a genetic defect.

 

[disneyhorse]

I have gelded a two month old miniature colt. Went just fine. I have an excellent veterinarian though!

Gelding here though, it's twice the amount of other areas (I think about $350 per horse).

Andrea

 

[Miniv]

Chryptorchidism - Strangely the computer doesn't recognize the word.

I don't believe there has been a study on the subject with miniature horses versus full sized.

HOWEVER, just from personal experience we have had some who were later in descending than a full sized. What we saw was that some colts were descended as newborns, then "sucked up". They descended again either as yearlings or at two years.

It has been rare but some colts can descend as three year olds. I think we've only had ONE do it. Our suspicion is that it is very hereditary, but we don't have the proof. Scott Creek Farm has written an essay regarding this, but we have been fortunate in that we haven't had to address the problem more than once.

Personally if a colt has not dropped in their second year I would have a vet address it. It could be a simple "fix".

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I have gelded a two month old miniature colt. Went just fine. I have an excellent veterinarian though!

Gelding here though, it's twice the amount of other areas (I think about $350 per horse).

Andrea

I gelded one at 2 months too, no problems, so it all depends on the horse. You just have to find the right vet. I have had some good ones and a very bad one that I will not go back too.