Cryptorchidism

[Mominis]

Our yearling, Armani (born May 27, 2009), has yet to drop. We ended up skipping Nationals with him this year because we can't stay on for the colts classes and just are able to take off enough work to go for the geldings classes. Anyway, we are worried as he acts totally studdy, more like a two year old colt than a yearling, but we haven't seen hide nor hair of the 'boys.' Is it more common in minis to have a cryptorchid? Has anyone here ever had one? We are debating about taking him to the University hospital in October, if he hasn't dropped by then, so that we can have the surgery done while it's still nice enough that he gets plenty of time out and we don't have any swelling issues.

Waiting until he is a two year old would hamper our showing plans for him for next year. It also makes keeping him more of a headache, as the place that we board isn't set up or populated by people that are used to being around stallions of any size. We can't convert his stall like Shake's is until he's gelded either, which has him standing in a stall he can't see out of, which has to be mentally harder on him. Shake's stall was lowered in the front so he can hang his head out like everyone else. Poor Armani is in a big horse size walled stall, until we can get the deed done.

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say.

 

[Jill]

Yes, there are members here who have had cryptorchid horses, and I do think it's more common in minis than in full size horses.

Has the vet checked him and found "them" not to be down? The reason I ask is that we've had many miniature horses gelded here. There have been a few that as yearlings, I honestly wasn't sure I could palpate the testicles (either both or one) and I sort of would hold my breath when my vet came out to geld them. All were in fact down, but they can be actually so small / held up so close to the body at that age that I think many times owners feel the horse hasn't dropped when he actually has.

Good luck!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I'm not sure if its more common then the big horses but it seems to appear quite a bit with the minis. I would be more concerned if he dropped 1 and not the other. He may just need some more time for them to drop. I would say by a full 2 year old if they have yet to drop then I would start to worry. However since you want him as a gelding anyways and is already acting studly you might as well go with the surgery.

 

[Becky]

I don't believe it's more common in miniatures than full size horses, however, many people including vets don't seem to be able to find them!

I personally have palpated a number of colts and stallions that vets and owners have deemed crypt when they are not. Perhaps they are up higher or smaller than expected, but both have been there and are normally descended.

I would have your boy examined by another party or two before determining that he isn't down.

 

[txminipinto]

I would say they are much more common in minis than full size horses. And that comes from my experience at a teaching hospital where we do a lot of crypts. That said, I have seen yearlings that were professionals at hiding the boys to be fully descended as 2 year olds.

 

[Jill]

Following what Becky and Carin have said reminds me that my favorite vet in the practice I use is "known" for being able to geld young minis in the regular way that other vets have incorrectly deemed to be cryptorchids

 

[ruffian]

Following what Becky and Carin have said reminds me that my favorite vet in the practice I use is "known" for being able to geld young minis in the regular way that other vets have incorrectly deemed to be cryptorchids

II've had the same experience. One vet said, nope - not there. Other vet had no problem and found the berries on 2 boys. One thing to try is to knock the colt out and roll him oon his back. They should pop out or at least be able to find. I've had 2 laying right aalong the penis instead of in or near the sack. In one case, one was the size of a plum, and the other was size of an almond. So a 2nd opinion can be helpful.

Good luck in your berry picking!

 

[Mini Wonders Farm]

I just have to say that some stallions are slow bloomers. I bought a gorgeous three year old stallion last spring, I thought was sure to be a cryptorchid, he was at a sale and I never got to really look him over or I probably wouldn't have bought him. But, I'm really glad I did, because I can say he has all his parts now as a four year old.

 

[Charlotte]

I have another little story that goes along with this subject. Over the years we have bought back 3 young stallions, all two year olds. All three had been pronounced as chryptorchid by 2, 3 or 4 equine veterinarians. When they stepped off the trailer here at our farm they each had two testicles which I could personally palpate. In one case I had our farm vet waiting here and he easily palpated 2 on this particular colt. In each case one testicle was either up a bit higher than the other, or the colt could pull it up higher.

From my experience I would say a long trailer ride will cause a chryptorchid to drop his jewels!

I am also familiar with this same scenario happening at other farms.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that many veterinarians simply don't know how to locate small testicles on miniature horses.

I guess each can draw their own conclusions about minis vs bigs. You can imagine what my opinion is.

Charlotte

Oh, if you have one you are concerned about keep them exposed to cycling mares to keep their hormone levels up. The worst thing you can do is keep them in a bachleor herd situation.

 

[Mominis]

Thanks for that. The vet looked at him several weeks ago because I wanted to have him gelded straight away so we could get the recovery over and get started on him for Nationals. The vet said he couldn't find them. In fact, he asked if I was sure the horse hadn't already been gelded. If you spend 5 mintues with the colt around a mare, you know for sure he hasn't. My husband (it's his horse, afterall) checks Armani very often to see if they have made an appearance yet, but still nothing. I'm going to have him read this thread and see if maybe Armani is just keeping them in a strange place, like Ruffian suggested.

If all else fails, maybe we'll go for a long trailer ride. lol!

I think the latest I dare to wait for them to drop conventionally would be November. That would have him at 18 months old. If I wait any later than that, I'm afraid that the weather will get bad and he'll be trapped inside during recovery and I don't want that. I also don't want to go through the winter with him as a stallion, if I can avoid it at all.

We have already had some excitement from a stallion standpoint. The 17 hand WB mare jumped out of her pasture one morning and came into the barn. The walls of Armani's stall are about 4' high and he reared up, hooked his feet over the wall, and was trying to climb out to 'visit' with her. That has only happened the one time, but it really scared us and we just need to get the hormone thing under control before there are any accidents.

 

[Becky]

If you were closer to OK, I'd tell you to bring him on down. Our vet (the one Charlotte and I use) is very, very good at palpating testicles. I bet he'd find them for you. Good luck!

 

[Leeana]

Mimi,

I've had colts not decend until they were late in the summer year of two. Armani had some "lanky yearling stuff" going on and I think he is a slower one to mature in that sense. He has always been a BOY BOY every since he was born....he was snorting and calling to his mare eye candy out in the pasture before I even weaned him last year. Would go up to the mare pasture and arch his neck, wide eyed and snort, paw and squeel when mares would urinate near the fence line.

Last year I had a vet here to geld a colt that I knew was down, now he wasn't down like a 10 yr old breeding stallion..but they were there and able to be easily found. My vet, who is a big guy, went into the stall with him and the horse was in general a nervous and shaky colt and when the vet felt for them he could not find anything and I think with him in general being a nervous horse who was slightly shaking with my vet, I think he 'sucked' them up when he tensed back there when my vet reached for them. Im just standing there like..."they were there about 10 minutes ago when I checked.....??"

I would give him until the end of fall and let him come into himself some more...my preference was always to geld in the fall/winter anyway.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have just had two colt foals, one eight weeks, one ten gelded. I could find the testicles on the older colt, but my Vet could not, but took my word for it, and they both gelded out fine.

If they are not there, at birth or withing three days of, you are in trouble.

If people stopped accepting "late bloomers" as stallions, and accepted that they should be present and correct (allowing for their going up after weaning, which I have never experienced either) as yearlings or they are gelded, there would not be a problem in Minis.

 

[Sue_C.]

If people stopped accepting "late bloomers" as stallions, and accepted that they should be present and correct (allowing for their going up after weaning, which I have never experienced either) as yearlings or they are gelded, there would not be a problem in Minis.

I agree. If you have to wait till they are three-four years old to drop...then breed that on, eventually they are just gonna stop coming down altogether. That is the same as going though hoops to get a mare that won't get in foal, or hold it without drugs. I figure that is a mare that shouldn't be bred. All you are doing is passing that on to future generations.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I agree. If you have to wait till they are three-four years old to drop...then breed that on, eventually they are just gonna stop coming down altogether. That is the same as going though hoops to get a mare that won't get in foal, or hold it without drugs. I figure that is a mare that shouldn't be bred. All you are doing is passing that on to future generations.

I also agree. I believe they need to be down immediately or there is a problem. I'm not saying it means the horse can't be a breeding stallion, just saying do you want to perpetuate that trait?

Personally, I've had lots of colts that it was hard to feel them on, but they were just small is size and held extremely close to the body. I do think mini "berries" can be pretty tiny on a young colt/stallion.

And sometimes if a vet isn't used to how tiny they can be, they can't find them.

If you are in need of getting him gelded now rather than later as it sounds like you are, have you discussed with your vet giving your colt a sedative and waiting a few minutes. That will usually relax them enough that they are easier to find. Just a thought.

Good luck with whatever you do.

 

[stormy]

The problem is many minis are diagnosed as cryptorcid when they are not. Testicles drop when they weigh enough to drop, doesn't mean they aren't there...just hard to find. A smaller horse will have smaller testicles, would look pretty strange if they didn't so "late bloomers" are often colts that just don't mature physically as fast, to me that does not make them unacceptable as a stallion.

 

[Charlotte]

I agree. If you have to wait till they are three-four years old to drop...then breed that on, eventually they are just gonna stop coming down altogether

But I have to ask....what about the problem with the humans (vets, owners) who simply can't locate testicles which are there? So we label all of those horses as having a genetic problem? When in actuuality it's the people who have the problems?

In our case...which which happened over a long span of years, the 3 colts were born with 2 down. They left our farm with 2 down as per my palpation and/or my vet. Many months later they were suddenly missing one which miraculously reappeared when the horse arrived back here. What conclusion do you draw from that? (Each of those young stallions was in the 2 year old range)

Charlotte

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

But I have to ask....what about the problem with the humans (vets, owners) who simply can't locate testicles which are there? So we label all of those horses as having a genetic problem? When in actuuality it's the people who have the problems?

In our case...which which happened over a long span of years, the 3 colts were born with 2 down. They left our farm with 2 down as per my palpation and/or my vet. Many months later they were suddenly missing one which miraculously reappeared when the horse arrived back here. What conclusion do you draw from that? (Each of those young stallions was in the 2 year old range)

Charlotte

Charlotte, You are right about there being so many vets, and owners (myself included lots of times) who just can't find them. I'm lucky in that I've got one particular vet that I can rely on specifically for this. I always have him out after all my foals are born and line up the colts for him to examine. Sometimes he instantly goes "yep, there they are" and sometimes he feels and feels and questions and then eventually says "yes, I can confidently say they are both there and down." He says sometimes one of them is just so darn tiny and sometimes one is kind of on top of the other. But if they are below the ring, they are "down."

These colts that are "hiders" of the goods aren't crypts, they are just modest.

But I consider that different from a "late bloomer" in my opinion. If a colt isn't down at birth and they can't be found as a yearling but they are there as a 4 year old....that would bother me.

 

[miniwhinny]

I just have to say that some stallions are slow bloomers. I bought a gorgeous three year old stallion last spring, I thought was sure to be a cryptorchid, he was at a sale and I never got to really look him over or I probably wouldn't have bought him. But, I'm really glad I did, because I can say he has all his parts now as a four year old.

Yes,

it's a problem and as long as there are breeders who think it's okay to have a "late bloomer" left as a stallion then the problem isn't going to go away. We get what we allow ! I for sure wouldn't allow one of these horses in my breeding program nor would I buy from someone who thinks it's okay. It's a genetic fault that's being allowed.

 

[Sue_C.]

Testicles drop when they weigh enough to drop

To this I have to disagree. They should definately be there at birth...it has abosolutely nothing to do with how much they weigh.

But I consider that different from a "late bloomer" in my opinion. If a colt isn't down at birth and they can't be found as a yearling but they are there as a 4 year old....that would bother me.

it's a problem and as long as there are breeders who think it's okay to have a "late bloomer" left as a stallion then the problem isn't going to go away. We get what we allow ! I for sure wouldn't allow one of these horses in my breeding program nor would I buy from someone who thinks it's okay. It's a genetic fault that's being allowed.

Exactly...we reap what we sow...that's a given. I bet if there was a study done on these "late bloomers" there would be a lot of shared liniage, as it most likely does run in families; just as they are quite sure true cryptism does.