bought a cart at auction today

[RhineStone]

Suspension components have to have room to travel (compress and extend). The original photos showed what appeared to be a closed loop between the floor and the shaft. Without an opening between the floor and the shaft for spring travel, the spring is useless for the purpose intended and just becomes bolt on bling. The separation between the seat (floor boards) and the shafts provide this break needed to allow the suspension to travel. An interesting approach by this builder to be sure.

Bb

So you thought that the seat bar was attached to the shaft?

I totally understand what you said above, and concur, I just don't think I have ever heard it described that way.

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

This is one reason that I am clarifying this for people, too. It frustrates me when miniature horse suppliers use the wrong terms.

Very true, although to be fair sometimes there is more than one acceptable term for a harness part like blinkers/blinders/winkers or breeching/britching.

I went hunting through some of my harness books this morning and found a diagram that showed the open tug loop labeled "Shaft tug," the dangling strap from that as the "tug billet," and the sliding buckle part on the girth as the "outer girth or over girth." This was in "Carriage Driving Essentials." So in that case you would have either an over girth or wrap strap, as you said, but it is the girth part and not the dangling strap that is the "overgirth" if I'm understanding correctly. That's only one book though and as we all know, there are many books and just as many opinions!

Does it have a metal "cradle" that the shaft rests on? Yes, it wraps around the shaft some, but the Ozark example is built completely backwards from a real French tug. It's almost more of a "marathon" tug. Again, I would call French the wrong term. That contributes to the "raised eyebrows" that some big horse drivers give mini people. It's like calling any bit with a jointed mouthpiece a snaffle. It's wrong, yet suppliers do it because that is the common vernacular.

I see what you mean in scanning my books. French tugs slide through the side closest to the horse, not the side away, and do have a metal cradle. What is a Tilbury tug if that's the true French tug?

I'm so confused! I would say the Ozark one is nothing like a marathon tug though as marathon tugs do not constrict around the shaft and must by definition open to receive a closed loop marathon shaft, which this one does even less easily than a regular open tug.

Out of curiousity, what is the correct name for a non-French Link jointed mouthpiece if not "snaffle"? I understand "snaffle" refers to the sort of connection the bit has with the reins, i.e. a direct connection without leverage, but is there another name to correctly describe the basic jointed mouthpiece that usually constitutes a snaffle bit? Is it just "jointed," as in a jointed snaffle versus a mullen mouth snaffle?

Leia

 

[MiLo Minis]

I have always called it an overgirth with wrap straps or tug straps/billets - the overgirth being the wider leather piece that slides through the saddle under the horse that either connects to the billets or has wrap straps connected that tie around the shaft.

A single jointed snaffle bit is commonly called "broken".

There are basically 2 types of bits - snaffle and curb or non leverage or leverage. The mouths on either can be one of hundreds if not thousands of types such as mullen, broken, french link, twisted, wire, etc. Snaffle or curb does refer to the way they are hung on the bridle. The snaffle being loosely held by the ring allowing for only direct rein pressure and the curb being held in a fixed position at the top of the ring allowing for leverage to be applied which puts pressure on the poll. You must use a chain or strap under the chin with a curb in order for it to work properly. Most curb type bits have cheeks or shanks where the reins can be attached and the lower you attach to the shank the more leverage is applied with the same amount of hand pressure. Different names have been given to the different styles of "shank" such as butterfly or Liverpool.

 

[RhineStone]

So in that case you would have either an over girth or wrap strap, as you said, but it is the girth part and not the dangling strap that is the "overgirth" if I'm understanding correctly.

Agreed. The Smucker's catalog points to the overgirth as being the piece of leather that has a buckle at each end and is "over" the reg. girth and attached to it "loosely" with a tab of leather and the absolute bottom. I didn't "part out" the rest of the parts of the overgirth system, I suppose because the "tug billet" is sewn on to the tug via the hardware.

What is a Tilbury tug if that's the true French tug?

Tilbury's are designed the same way as French, but don't have a metal cradle.

I would say the Ozark one is nothing like a marathon tug though as marathon tugs do not constrict around the shaft and must by definition open to receive a closed loop marathon shaft, which this one does even less easily than a regular open tug.

I think you are describing a Quick Release tug. We have this kind for one of our harnesses. (It won't let me copy the photo.) http://www.drivingessentials.com/pop%20up%20pages/Harness_Section/ess_marathon_saddle.htm The difference between that and the Tilbury is that the bight of the tug bearing strap goes back into the buckle on the Tilbury. Ironically, we don't like them. With our well-sprung horses that we don't tighten the girth on a lot so that we don't gall them, these tugs don't work very well. The overgirth needs to be tighter for these tugs to hold up the shafts. We like the Quick Release tugs better for the marathon vehicle. Ozark definitely has their own design. It's almost like a reverse Marathon. The bight is outside the tug.

Out of curiousity, what is the correct name for a non-French Link jointed mouthpiece if not "snaffle"? I understand "snaffle" refers to the sort of connection the bit has with the reins, i.e. a direct connection without leverage, but is there another name to correctly describe the basic jointed mouthpiece that usually constitutes a snaffle bit? Is it just "jointed," as in a jointed snaffle versus a mullen mouth snaffle?

I would call that jointed or broken. What I was referring to more was how especially WP people use "snaffle" to describe a Tom Thumb curb, or any other curb with a jointed mouthpiece.

(How do you do the double quote so I don't have to type in the quote box?

)

Myrna

 

[RhineStone]

I have always called it an overgirth with wrap straps or tug straps/billets - the overgirth being the wider leather piece that slides through the saddle under the horse that either connects to the billets or has wrap straps connected that tie around the shaft.

That is what I am referring to. The harness maker catalogs identify those pieces separately. Yes, they both go over the girth, but an overgirth is entirely a different piece from a wrap strap. Every piece of a harness has a name. Yes, some pieces can have multiple names for the same piece (winkers, blinkers, blinders), but if you order, per say, a martingale, do you want a running, a standing, or a false one?

I learned the hard way that the little piece of metal that is sewn into the breeching to accept the hip strap is called the breeching dee (my pony pulled his out

). The hip strap is only the flat leather, sometimes forked, that doesn't have any buckles. That doesn't include the little straps with the buckles that are sewn onto the breeching dees. I bet they have a different name. Yes, the whole assembly (breeching, dees, and those little straps with the buckles) is commonly known as the breeching, probably because it usually comes together (except when my pony pulls it apart.

) So every little piece has a separate name. Fascinating!

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I think you are describing a Quick Release tug. We have this kind for one of our harnesses. (It won't let me copy the photo.) http://www.drivinges...thon_saddle.htm The difference between that and the Tilbury is that the bight of the tug bearing strap goes back into the buckle on the Tilbury. Ironically, we don't like them. With our well-sprung horses that we don't tighten the girth on a lot so that we don't gall them, these tugs don't work very well. The overgirth needs to be tighter for these tugs to hold up the shafts. We like the Quick Release tugs better for the marathon vehicle. Ozark definitely has their own design. It's almost like a reverse Marathon. The bight is outside the tug.

I'm not experienced with French tugs, Tilbury tugs or other pieces related to fine harness driving or Pleasure Show driving, but I do know CDE harnesses. The Driving Essentials harness on that link is the only occasion I have ever seen of a so-called "marathon tug" of that style!

The ones I've seen called marathon tugs are the quick releases as their purpose is to allow quick and easy hitching of closed-loop marathon shaft ends. What advantage is gained by using the style of tug shown on the D.E. harness? You'd have to pull that entire strap out to put the shaft end into the tug, fidget with getting it back through the buckle and then down behind the shaft against the horse's side, and to keep the tug closed and the shaft secured you'd have to buckle the overgirth into place. Am I missing something?

(How do you do the double quote so I don't have to type in the quote box?

)

It's easier if you know a little coding.

When you hit the "reply" or "multiquote" buttons it automatically creates quote coding around the text of that post. All you have to do to break it up is copy the first quote tag, the one with the name and post time in it, and put it in front of each piece of text you want to quote separately. Then take the close quote tag (it looks like a square bracket, the "/" symbol, and then the word "quote" with another square bracket around it) from the end, copy it, and put it at the end of each section of text. Each piece of text you want to quote should have an opening and a closing tag surrounding it. Then you can just type below that and it will show up like my posts do. (I do have to manually select and copy your blue text from within the things you've replied to and paste it in the text box though as since the latest forum upgrade it doesn't include previously quoted text when you hit reply for some reason.)

There's also a quote tag in the text editing menu where bolding and such is, it looks like a little speech bubble. You can hit "reply," paste in your text you want to quote, then highlight the text and press the speech bubble icon to have it surround that text with quote code. It won't show who that text is by if you do that though. You can manually add that by looking at how it's written when the computer does it and copying the format. See how the quote above looks different from the one right below this? That's because I did the top two quotes manually.

That is what I am referring to. The harness maker catalogs identify those pieces separately. Yes, they both go over the girth, but an overgirth is entirely a different piece from a wrap strap. Every piece of a harness has a name. Yes, some pieces can have multiple names for the same piece (winkers, blinkers, blinders), but if you order, per say, a martingale, do you want a running, a standing, or a false one?

I think we're talking about the same stuff again.

Of course the harness maker labels them differently. He has to, or he wouldn't know which part you wanted to order! But a wrap strap is still a kind of overgirth, it's just the kind with a long wrap strap attached to the buckle assembly. Just as a running martingale, false martingale and standing martingale are all martingales. It's not wrong to call them a "martingale" although they also have a more specific designation indicating the differences!

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

What advantage is gained by using the style of tug shown on the D.E. harness? You'd have to pull that entire strap out to put the shaft end into the tug, fidget with getting it back through the buckle and then down behind the shaft against the horse's side, and to keep the tug closed and the shaft secured you'd have to buckle the overgirth into place. Am I missing something?

They are cheaper!

The only other thing is that sometimes the leather tug bearing strap is very stiff to use with Quick Releases. It doesn't release so quick when you have to fight with fat leather. Just changing the open tugs to the marathon tugs on the Smucker's harness was a production. Our Q.R. on the beta harness are MUCH easier to use. Again, those Marathon tugs are not my favorite anyway.

Thanks for the quote directions! I'll have to peruse them more thoroughly later.

Myrna

 

[Sandee]

....................................................................................................

Out of curiousity, what is the correct name for a non-French Link jointed mouthpiece if not "snaffle"? I understand "snaffle" refers to the sort of connection the bit has with the reins, i.e. a direct connection without leverage, but is there another name to correctly describe the basic jointed mouthpiece that usually constitutes a snaffle bit? Is it just "jointed," as in a jointed snaffle versus a mullen mouth snaffle?

Leia

Here's a link to an explanation: http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/articles/0100snaffles.shtml

It begins : "Simply put, a snaffle bit is a two-ring implement joined by a mouthpiece. It works through direct pressure - a pull on the left rein makes a direct line to the left ring of the bit. It is the bit of choice for young horses and novice riders

google_protectAndRun("render_ads.js::google_render_ad", google_handleError, google_render_ad);"It makes a good bit for training because it's simple for the horse to understand," says author and riding instructor Susan Harris. "Many people mistakenly think that the snaffle works by the joint's putting pressure on the roof of the mouth. Not so. The jointed-mouth snaffle bends in the middle and presses downward on the tongue, as well as exerting pressure on the bars and lips."

Another myth - any bit with a broken mouthpiece is a snaffle. Again not so, says Harris. "Curb or gag bits can have a jointed mouthpiece," she explains. "A snaffle bit can have several types of mouthpieces, including the straight Mullen mouth, the double-jointed French, or the Dr. Bristol. Don't be fooled, either, by the 'Tom Thumb snaffle,' which is actually a curb bit."

 

[Minimor]

);"It makes a good bit for training because it's simple for the horse to understand," says author and riding instructor Susan Harris. "Many people mistakenly think that the snaffle works by the joint's putting pressure on the roof of the mouth. Not so. The jointed-mouth snaffle bends in the middle and presses downward on the tongue, as well as exerting pressure on the bars and lips."

While this is technically true--it is not the intention that a jointed snaffle should "work" by putting pressure on the roof of the mouth--one must be careful when using the jointed snaffle on minis.
Minis very often don't have a lot of room in their mouths--they tend to have a lower palate/thicker tongue--this combined with the unfortunate tendency of many Mini sized bits to be poorly constructed makes it very likely that the joint will dig into the roof of the mouth when rein pressure is applied.

Some Mini bits have very large joints--I've seen bits with a 3 1/2" mouthpiece that had the joint the exact same size as the joint on some 5" bits. That is far too much joint to have in a Mini's mouth, and a bit with such a large joint has to poke into the palate when the reins are used. This has the effect of making the horse open his mouth in an effort to avoid having the bit press into his palate (which doesn't feel very good at all) and he won't be paying much use to the effect of the bit otherwise.

 

[Margo_C-T]

In my experience, the single-jointed mouthpiece was called a 'broken-mouthed'...ONE joint, i.e., 'broken'. I would call things like a french-link, 'jointed'. It is NOT the mouthpiece that makes a bit a 'snaffle', but the 'no-leverage' aspect.

Most of the bits that 'come with' many harnesses are broken-mouthed, and sorry ones at that, with all the drawbacks mentioned by Minimor. I got rid of mine, replacing them w/ a variety of better-made, more-suitable-mouthpieced, bits.

Years ago, some did call the shanked but broken-mouthed bits, 'western snaffles' or similar designations, as did I, for a time, until I learned better! I used to use a western curb, recommended by my instructor, that was a curb w/ aluminum cheeks and a broken mouthpiece, made by Irvin QUICK. I had several horse that went quite well in it; I also had a couple of other QUICK bits-different mouthpieces--that worked well for several different horses. QUICK bits were a quality brand and are still being made; I checked at the big local Western store not too long ago!

Margo

 

[RhineStone]

Most of the bits that 'come with' many harnesses are broken-mouthed, and sorry ones at that, with all the drawbacks mentioned by Minimor.

I find that "Bit Included!" can also be the sign of a "sorry" harness from a manufacturer that doesn't know a whole lot about horses...or is just a good marketer for poor suckers who don't know any better...

 

[Margo_C-T]

My first harness was a Smuckers Lite--hardly a 'sorry' harness from a mfg. who knew little about horses-yet it 'included' a 'not much' bit. In fact, I have NEVER bought a "sorry" harness, but have had several that included those 'not so great' bits. I've owned four Smuckers including a Russet Deluxe, two custom ordered Lutkes, two pair harnesses-one beta from The Carriage Shop in FL, and the other set which was probably the 'lowest' quality I've had; ordered it from the same individual(no longer making harness)who'd made the pair harness for the original Golden Horse and Carriage-built back-to-back trap that was the inspiration for the one I had built for myself; it is pretty enough,sturdy enough, and fits well, but lacks top quality finish detail)and a single beta harness from The Carriage Shop. Although it's been quite a while since I got most of my harnesses,I'm pretty sure that all except perhaps the second Lutke-and the Carriage Shop single- 'included' half cheek broken mouth bits which weren't much.So...though what you said IS sometimes the case, Myrna, it is not ALWAYS so.

Margo

 

[MiLo Minis]

My first harness was a Smuckers Lite--hardly a 'sorry' harness from a mfg. who knew little about horses-yet it 'included' a 'not much' bit. In fact, I have NEVER bought a "sorry" harness, but have had several that included those 'not so great' bits. I've owned four Smuckers including a Russet Deluxe, two custom ordered Lutkes, two pair harnesses-one beta from The Carriage Shop in FL, and the other set which was probably the 'lowest' quality I've had; ordered it from the same individual(no longer making harness)who'd made the pair harness for the original Golden Horse and Carriage-built back-to-back trap that was the inspiration for the one I had built for myself; it is pretty enough,sturdy enough, and fits well, but lacks top quality finish detail)and a single beta harness from The Carriage Shop. Although it's been quite a while since I got most of my harnesses,I'm pretty sure that all except perhaps the second Lutke-and the Carriage Shop single- 'included' half cheek broken mouth bits which weren't much.So...though what you said IS sometimes the case, Myrna, it is not ALWAYS so.

Margo

Yeah, I have to agree with what Margo says here - my top notch harnesses also came with a not much bit. My Ozark Mountain harnesses also come with a not much bit and they are quite serviceable and well made. I throw out the bits but keep the harnesses!

 

[RhineStone]

What I was referring to more (and to give unknowing people a heads up) is that CAN (as I said in my original post) be a sign of a sorry harness. Think of those "butter soft", "premium" Ebay harnesses. "Everything's included", just "Bring out UR carts!"

Mini tack has come a long ways in the quality and the fit. I think when mini tack first came out, manufacturers didn't take minis as seriously as they do now, much because the consumer demanded that they take us seriously. The options for bits were pretty slim, and everybody used a jointed snaffle because that is what you could get. So why not include one with the harness because the consumer is going to need one anyway. As harness makers got more "educated" about the miniature horse and bit options were available, it probably didn't make sense to include a bit anymore. All three of my new Driving Essentials mini and pony harnesses didn't come with a bit. The Smucker's catalog from 2001 that I still have doesn't include a bit with any of their harnesses. I don't remember if my mom's - new in 1995 - mini harness came with a bit, but I do remember not having anything except a jointed snaffle and a mullen "stud bit" that we used on the green horses if we didn't need to use the jointed snaffle. The crummy, old used mini harness that we got first came with a bit because the old guy was selling out. I don't even remember if my mom's first harness - a 1980's big horse Amish-made harness - came with a bit, but the Amish (as a whole) don't pay that much attention to bitting, and assume that everyone must use a jointed snaffle....

Myrna

 

[MiLo Minis]

Wilma

I went through a few of my books on carriages and found something similar to your "sulky" or "road cart" - it seems to be a sort of crossover between the two. The vehicle I found was intended for use on the road and quite often by mailcarriers which might explain the "shocks" to make the ride smoother.

 

[studiowvw]

I went through a few of my books on carriages and found something similar to your "sulky" or "road cart" - it seems to be a sort of crossover between the two. The vehicle I found was intended for use on the road and quite often by mailcarriers which might explain the "shocks" to make the ride smoother.

Well, that makes a lot of sense. The soft ride is great. If you were running the roads every day delivering mail, I can see you'd want something like this.

W