Ownership/AOTE question

[normajeanbaker]

I've looked through the AMHA rulebook and cant find the answer to my question. It answers it under the Amateur rules, but says nothing about it under AOTE. Can a horse who is registered under 2 names(worded as an OR between names, not AND) be shown as an AOTE horse if both names on the papers are amateurs and both are relatives and this is done before Jan 1? I know it's okay for Amateur, but I know AOTE is a bit different. Before we change our papers, we wanted to make sure we were all set doing this with our 2010 AOTE horses. I wasnt sure if this was okay to do or if we are better off just leaving papers as is with just the 1 name on our AOTE horses. Both people's names going on the papers are amateurs and are related.

Thanks in advance

Jen

 

[sdmini]

I had called to see if both my daughter and I could show the same AOTE horse and they said yes, as could my brother and I. They did say change was coming down the pike as it was hard to verify if people were actually related or not but for 2010 it stays the same. At least this is what I was told.

 

[sfmini]

I know it is allowed, but when Judy and I co-own a horse (and we are not related), only one of us shows the AOTE horse. personally, we think it is the right thing to do and more in keeping with the spirit of the concept.

I had pretty much given up on showing since I am not able to bodyclip these days. But with the new rule coming in to effect next year, I will be able to have someone clip my horses and I can show AOTE.

I hear that some people were doing that this year, which was in violation of the rules........ after Jan 1, yes, before Jan 1, 2010, NO!

PLEASE READ ON, MY CORRECTION TO THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS FURTHER ON AND THERE IS NO NEW RULE PASSED FOR NEXT YEAR.

SOMEONE IS PROPOSING IT AGAIN, BUT IT COULD NOT BE IN EFFECT FOR A FEW YEARS.

SURE OPENED UP A CAN OF WORMS AND I APOLIGIZE FOR THE CONFUSION.

 

[normajeanbaker]

Thanks for the replies. My mom and I are thinking of putting both of our names on our horses papers with the OR between our names, but wanted to make sure we could still go AOTE with some of these guys with 2 names on the papers.

Thanks!

Jen

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

I am sad they are changing it. It was nice to have one class that you could compete by what you have done all yourself. There was always amateur if you needed help from someone else.

 

[wpsellwood]

Jody what new rule? I know they are trying again to get it past that you can pay someone to clip your aote horse which I think defeats the purpose of aote show in amt. It failed last year and keeps coming up by few guess I will flying in to vote it down.

 

[Millstone Farm]

And I will be flying in to vote this rule proposal down, too. the whole concept of AOTE is that the amateur owner does everything his/herself. pretty soon we'll see pros showing in the AOTE division if it gets any more watered down.

It's flies in the face of what the purpose of the AOTE division is supposed to be about.

I'm so sick and tired of people who don't qualify in the spirit of the class trying to change the division to suit their individual needs.

 

[~Lisa~]

Hmm Interesting I do not show AMHA but it is interesting to hear exactly how strict the rules are for this class down to the clipping I will have to go read up on this program

Although I must admint clipping has never been my strong suit

 

[minimomNC]

Why is having someone else clip your horse so horrible and anyone can keep your horse for up to two weeks I think it is and haul it to a show. Or you can show someone elses horse in a grand class while another amateur shows your AOTE horse? I don't have a problem with someone clipping for a person that isn't able to clip, not everyone can get down under a horse to get the belly or the insides of the legs, so they shouldn't show because of that? I have problems with alot of other things first. Clipping isn't one of them.

 

[wpsellwood]

I guess my problem is if you cant clip your horse, how are you able to work it, feed it, groom it ,get ready to show such as paint their feet. bath it, bush it ect??? So this person cant clip their own horse but can do everything else??

Im afraid if it keeps broading there wont be an AOTE anymore it will be amt level 1 and 2. Because thats what AOTE is becoming with every little rule change.

 

[sfmini]

For myself personally it is difficult to safely get that low and clip a horse that doesn't want to be clipped and I risk doing further damage to myself that could limint my life forever. Minor detail.

Someone emailed me asking if it truely had been passed and truthfully I was going off of what I heard Tom O was staying to members up in his area. I thought it had been passed and I can't find anything. I'll search on and see what the true status is. I have been looking at my notes and so far find nothing. I'll keep looking.

Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[minimomNC]

Then an amateur should have to show their own AOTE in grand classes including open or amateur. And they should have to haul their own horse to every show including World and take care of it their self. If your going to require the AOTE person to do it all then they should be doing it all. If you want AOTE to be consistant then you have to make it that way across the board.

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

If we have someone haul our horse, it is for the safety of the horse. They have a sturdy big horse trailer. It does not effect how my daughters horse looks in its aote class. And my daughter does the loading, unloading and feeding of her horse. We love aote. It is the only class that is ours. Hauling does not change how the animals looks in its class. As for champion rounds, I agree, you should have to show your aote horse yourself. That is what it is about.

 

[Mocha]

I understand that there will be a clarification on the question of who must show an AOTE horse in a championship or supreme class. It is permissable now to hand off an AOTE horse to another amateur handler if you have more than one (amateur OR aote horse) in a championship or supreme class. That rule, in our area (New England) local shows, has always been interpreted that if you had one aote horse, and one amateur horse, you would stay with your aote horse and hand off the amateur horse. In fact, most of us thought that WAS the rule. Apparently that is not spelled out in the rules and does need to be clarified.

The question about a third party hauling a horse was settled a couple of years ago, at the same time as it was decided that it was ok to hold or pet and show affection to an AOTE horse. My AOTE buddies and I make fun of that statement all the time, but it did clarify a few things and prevent some of the petty backbiting.

And Crabby Chicken, is right - having your AOTE horse transported by someone else does not affect your horse's level of training or the way they look in the show ring.

But clipping most certainly does. For our halter horses, especially, the choice of blade sizes, the timing of the clip, the 'finished' look of the fine clipping and facial -- is an important part of the horse's presentation. So are the choice and application of products used to bathe and whiten and shine and enhance and polish. And yes, one must be able to crawl around upside down and twist one's self into a sweaty, hairy pretzel to get it done properly -- all part of the AOTE experience.

I LOVE the AOTE division. It has been a source of the greatest pride and joy for me with my homebreds. Yes, I have been known to employ the services of profesional trainers in times past. Yes, I have enjoyed the luxury of showing up sweat free, make up in place, taking my horse's lead from a trainer at the in gate in an amateur class. It is just not the same. And I, too, will be booking a flight to vote against any rule change that takes our truly 'do it yourself' AOTE division away from those of us who love and support it.

 

[sfmini]

I have contacted the office to clarify the status of the clipping issue, I was going on what another BOD member was saying at the shows this year, but I find no mention of it in any of my notes on the voting issues. I will let you know what I find.

I want to show my new filly AOTE but some disabilities prevent me from safely bodyclipping any more. The majority of the work in the AOTE horse is the training and conditioning at home. While a nice bodyclip looks better than a bad one, clipping is not training or showing the horse.

Why do we want to exclude the less able of our membership from showing AOTE? Some of us don't qualify as special needs, just creaky and achy and slow, and stiff.

 

[ClickMini]

Jody, on this one issue, I will disagree with you. AOTE is for people that really do, do it all. This is really one area that is unique to the AMHA, and is a differentiating factor on what shows a person might choose to go to. It is a big draw to me, personally. I do everything myself at this time. Body clipping is more than difficult for me as well, but I do it. It limits how many horses I can take to a show. I understand that you probably have bigger issues than just being arthritic, since you said it might change your ability to do things for the rest of your life. However, if you are unable to do all of the requirements of the division, you still can show in Ammy and Open. That is all that is available to us when we show in AMHR, and I must say I don't feel shorted.

I have what will be an incredible AOTE horse, Esprit. I can't show him AOTE in 2010, because I can't hardship him in until after Jan. 1. I have to wait until the following year. This is a horse I have had since he was 3 months old and I have done every single thing with him myself. In a couple of cases I handed the lead to a pro before an open class, but the only Grand he has to date was done with me at the lead. He is mine, through and through. Yet I have to wait until we honestly qualify in it. That is just the way the rules go, so I just have to deal with it.

I think it is really, really important to keep in the spirit of the AOTE division. If a couple of people are negatively impacted that is too bad, but the intent of the class is to show off ALL you can do all by yourself.

You stated, Jody, that you have quit showing because you couldn't meet the requirements for AOTE...why aren't you showing in Ammy?

 

[sfmini]

I quit showing because I had a knee replacement and I had a terrible time with ongoing pain. My driving gelding is a turd to clip and I really don't want to risk injury again.

Ammy in AMHA = open for the most part, competing with people who take the lead from the trainer, go in the class and watch the trainer for instruction, then hand the horse back.

I can do everything but the clipping and clipping just isn't that much when judging a horse. Yes, they have to be well done, but the judge is looking at conformation, movement, and conditioning.

Where the clipping and feet come in to play is if it is half a###d the judge will assume the person really didn't care enough to present the horse at its best.

 

[wpsellwood]

So what some are saying that the horse they have is not safe to clip? Im not being smart here but I know when we had large equine and we had horse that wasnt very good to clip, our vet would tranquilize him. Made it much more safe for handler and horse. Just a thought.

So then the other issue it isnt fair I cant clip my horse, what about the guy that isnt very good at clipping but cant afford to pay another person to clip for him. How fair is that?? I mean we could go on and on.

By the way I show my aote horses in amt too, and if they are nice enough they do just fine.

 

[sharpllook]

AOTE already has "ringers" in it! AOTE also has the element of bankacount too.

Why not vote to have AOTE shown, BRED (not purchased).

I've heard of death treats to the AOTE police if someone held them between classes.

I understand the reasoning but common sense sure could aid in the fun.

 

[sfmini]

He is a pig about his legs, and I don't like to risk using drugs if I don't have to. Every stick is an infection risk. I also show him open and ammy and did fine, my filly should do well too, until Worlds. Not so sure I want to waste my money against the trainer horses and the horses that have been in the warmer climates and already showing in the 2010 show season.

But, I am not going to argue, we will just agree to disagree and be done.

This came from the AMHA office:

The AOTE clipping rule: The rule was passed by the Show Rules Committee in June of 2007, but membership failed it in February 2008. I do not have anything regarding this to be voted on in Feb 2010.

I just talked to Lorraine O’Connell this morning and she is submitting a rule change regarding this to go to Show Rule Committee for review during the Feb 2010 meeting.

That would mean it would be voted on in Feb, 2011 and if passed will be in place in 2012.