minimal dwarf signs

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Hey Everyone,

I've seen a few posts where people talk about the horse being a minimal or very minimal dwarf. I've seen some dwarves and can tell right away that something is off, but what is a minimal dwarf? I mean, if you see a mini with only one sign, like an off-bite or something, does this automatically mean they are a dwarf? Can't it just be an off-bite? Or a bump on the head if it's not that big? Can it just be the shape of the head or is it only a dwarf characteristic? Thanks for helping clear this up for me.
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Thank you for asking this question. I was also wondering. I have been told by several people that because Zoey was born with a slight underbite, she was a minimal dwarf. But then I have had a lot of people (including a dental vet and a regular vet) tell me that this is not a positive sign of dwarfism and that there are usually more things wrong to be a true dwarf. It's so confusing! I can't wait to see the differing opinions on this one.
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Hi 'Cowboy's My Baby'. I have a Cowboy too!
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Here is my take on the dwarf issue.

1. until we have genetic testing for the various forms of dwarfism there isn't any 'for sure' way to know what is 'dwarf' and what isn't.

2. Some folks will say that .... little ears indicate dwarfism.....or an off bite, or a short neck, or short legs, or crooked legs, or a long back.....etc, etc. But those things may just be different types of normal conformation or a conformation fault that has nothing to do with dwarfism........look at the American Quarter Horse.......you've got the running quarter (looks like a sprint throughbred)you've got the halter horse which looks VERY different, you've got the roping horse.......all the same 'breed', but very different in type. That may very well be what we are seeing in the minis.

3. Then you have (and many on here don't want to take this issue into consideration because they aren't familiar with it) those abnormalities which are caused by enviornmental issues but may have the same 'look' in the resulting horse as the genetic dwarfism would. I mean, when you see a Standardbred foal that looks just like what we in miniatures would call a bad dwarf, but it is proven to be caused by high nitrate levels in the forages the mare ate while in first trimester.......and some of the fescue issues ... which could possibly be nitrate related also, but that is just speculation by the vets involved at this time.

I think the bottom line is that until we have some universities willing to do research using a herd of miniatures we aren't going to have the answers we want.

And as for bites.....they can come and go. It is my personal feeling from MY experience that many of the off bites are the result of inadequate dental care. If a mini is born with an off bite........well, that could be a dwarf characteristic, or it just as easily could not be a dwarf characteristic. We have no way to know.

Now.........who is your 'Cowboy'?

Charlotte
 
i personally hate the term minimal dwarf and always say minimal expression dwarf. There is nothing minimal about a minimal dwarf. A horse either is or isnt but some just dont show it as much on the outside. Nell that CMHR took in is a good example. She looks almost normal but has a wierd leg deformaty and her head just doesnt look quite right. When we had her under vet care we found her insides were very much that of a dwarf. So even though on the outside she didnt look like "a full blown dwarf" (another term i dont like) she most definately was

nell.jpg


nellfoot.jpg
 
So, is there anything people can look for when looking at minis then? I mean, if you see a mini with bad legs, a large head that is out of proportion to it's body, I would assume this is a dwarf..... That's really what I was wondering. Other than the really obvious signs, how do you know? I had someone (not saying this person did or did not know what they were talking about) who told me their horse was minimal dwarf just because she was 27" tall. Other than her height, which I did not think made her a dwarf, I saw absolutely nothing wrong with her. So, I'm pretty confused and just trying to figure out what people mean! Any other suggestions/ideas? Thanks so much.
 
I am probably guilty of using "minimal" to describe some minis that show signs of dwarfism, but may in fact be arbitrary to many others.

For example, I had a little mare born here that had what I consider signs of dwarfism, though she was also quite sound and for the most part, as correct in the leg angulation as many horses being routinely bred.

Other than a straight hind leg angle, she really didn't show a lot of sign outwardly of being a non-breeding prospect.

What added up for me w/this mare:

Overall large bone density for her height of 30". A high dome on her forehead (not between the eyes but higher between the ears and eyes). An underbite caused by crowding (most likely the way her skull was made was why she had the dome and the underbite/dental crowding) which was NOT anything other than congenital.

These things added up to me to a "clue" as to what may have been hiding genetically. Looking at her dam, I think that is where it came from, as she showed the same problems though her underbite resolved itself as she grew and as a five year old mare it was perfectly straight and normal. The sire showed NO signs.

It is no ONE thing that says "dwarf" and it's not type vs. type.

What it is is a series of outward clues (when we can see them) and then again, it may be that the ones that have not even one sign may in fact be hiding so that when bred with one that may exhibit a "mild" sign of dwarfism, we get a severely afflicted dwarf, one of those that you look at and go right away, "dwarf".

I hate to say it, but in a lot of cases when someone is brave enough to post pics of sire and dam, it is somewhat apparent where things went wrong. I'm not saying I can predict or know, but in some cases it's fairly easy to see where the genes added up to a severe expression of the disorder.

Before I ever got into minis I went over to look at a herd of horses that a lady near here had for sale. I was drawn off the road by the color at first. As I got closer, even though I had had somewhat limited experience with minis, I could see that 90% of the herd was almost grotesquely malformed in one respect or the other. They were all closely or distantly related. One horse was the most beautiful liver color with yellow eyes. He had such a severe underbite that his tongue would not fit in his mouth. It was blistered and dried and looked miserable. Other than that, his legs and his shape was fine. Proportions were great. He DID have heavy, thick bones, and he was 35" tall, too. His full brother, however, was a black blanket appaloosa approx. 25" tall w/severe afflictions; huge pot belly, large, domed head and crooked legs.

The main criteria for me as I look at a horse are:

Overall proportions, i.e., nothing severely out of proportion with the rest (not talking a slightly big head, or a bit short legged, but glaringly off).

Under that proportion comparison goes the bone size for the height/proportion. I want to stress that I'm not talking "draft vs. qh vs. arab" in "TYPE" this is not about type. Many of the older dwarf types were advertised as being "arabian" type due to the bulge on the head, but in fact, if you look, their bones were HUGE for their heights.

Under or over bite. these may exist on their own in any number of horses and while to me they are a reason to keep them out of the breeding shed, when combined with any of the other things on "my" list, they start to hint dwarf. BUT, this affliction does exist, IMO, in horses that aren't necessarily anything close to a dwarf, and it may be a problem of dental care rather than congenital. A good equine dentist can confirm or help repair the issue if it's not truly congenital (i.e. passed onto other generations due to the way the head is formed).

Crooked legs. Again this problem happens in any number of horses in any population. In Miniature Horses, I believe it's more of a problem due to unwise breeding practices or just overlooking correctness for whatever trait that was desirable at the time. A bit of cowhockedness does not make a dwarf. Nor does a horse who might be over at the knees. What would be a bit more concerning to me would be of course something severe or something afflicting just one leg (such as knuckling over or to either side, or problems with the way the bones are made). Depending on severity, it may be that this one thing is enough to determine dwarfism and for sure the unsuitability for breeding. Many dwarfs are congenitally flawed with missing or extra joints, tendon issues and the like. It can either be a death sentence for them, or a severe pain and management issue. Sometimes it CAN be managed.

A pot belly that is not related to anything medical (i.e. worms, pregnancy, etc.).

Misplaced dome on the head. A high bulge that does not even out or look proportionate or natural as the horse grows. Tends to go with the characteristic of high, oddly-placed nostrils (and I see a lot of underbites w/this "look" too).

I don't know what others' "criteria" are, but these are some of the things I look for and sort of check off and note. Combine any or all of these and of course some of them should be "no breed" designations anyway, but even in their mild form, they just tell me to look elsewhere for breeding stock and/or find another use/enjoyment for that horse.

I have permission from Goldie's owner to use her picture for comparison and I will post it here, for educational purposes:

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Maybe a lot of people can't see it, but she does have a dome high up closer to her ears than is reasonable (can also sort of see her underbite from the outside, here). She was preparing to go in Color class at the time. She LOVED showing and being handled/played with.

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Yearling. Again, maybe it's not easy to see, but the outward signs as well as her underbite said possible dwarf to me. She also tended to grow upright hooves, so I would say was mildly clubfooted and we had to make sure to correct it with each trim.

She did outgrow the "butt high" but she still has a very straight hind leg angle, overall heavy bone for her height, and the odd shape/crowding of skull/jaw/dental arcade confirmed by an equine dentist. Her teeth were so crowded by the shape of her head that her wolf teeth grew behind her two front incisors. Nothing we did could change the underbite as it was from the shape and crowding, but it was manageable and she didn't have a lot of trouble eating.

She is now a beloved pet.

Liz M.
 
I completely agree with Kay; the term "minimal EXPRESSION" dwarf would be much more accurate, and more properly descriptive. I also agree that it will sometimes not be possible to firmly say whether or not a miniature horse is a dwarf, expecially if the expression IS minimal; my best advice would be that if there is ANY question, especially in the mind of KNOWLEDGABLE horsemen, then don't use the animal for breeding! I do think that it would help a lot if more people knew more about correct conformation, especially the finer points. There are MANY factors in conformation; it seems to me that often the finer points aren't even considered-especially in miniatures. The relative IMPORTANCE of certain conformational aspects also need to be more widely understood-I have noticed that this is often not the case. (A for-instance-I was present several years ago when a very small mare won National Champion in her size group at AMHA Nationals(now World)-pretty in many ways, nevertheless, this mare was SEVERELY back-at-the-knees(also known as 'calf-kneed")-it was visible even from the stands, and in her magazine-published photos, both from before and after the win! This is considered a pretty severe conformational defect-yet she won anyway(which said something sad about the judging, IMO-but maybe it also said even more about the genuine level of ability to evaluate conformation among even those who SHOULD have the 'highest' level of knowledge!!)

I also think Liz(nootka) is VERY astute in her view of this issue.The filly she discusses is cute as a bug, BUT.... I agree with her about the filly,including the overly-straight hind leg, known as 'post-leg', issue-but I will wager that there are MANY who would have put this filly in the breeding shed without hesitation. I would add that in my observation, the highly-placed-on-the-forehead dome-ing that she alludes to is, in many if not most cases, accompanied by smallish, somewhat 'lopped(meaning they don't stand 'straight up', but even when fully pricked, tend to angle off a bit to the sides), ears, that are also placed somewhat far back on the skull. I have also read that the large bellies often seen are due to having 'normal' sized innards-meaning the belly has to 'stretch' to accomodate them-and which is one of the manifestations of at least one of the forms of dwarfism. I do think it possible for a miniature to have "just" an underbite/overbite(underbite is a more common 'sign' of dwarfism, I believe); however, I would be very conservative in plans to breed any horse,stallion OR mare, with any such issue.

I do believe that MUCH more education about every aspect of conformation would be most helpful in this respect. Much is made that this ISN'T about 'breed type'(Arab-type vs. QH/stock horse type vs. Morgan-type, etc., etc.)-and I agree; if you read the AMHA Standard of Perfection, it is actually only a general(and not particularly detailed) description of basically correct aspects of light horse breed conformation(meaning it really wouldn't quite fit heavy-horse breed type-though today, there is little interest in that type within miniuatures.) How, for example, would you describe a good hock-in every aspect? What constitutes a good front limb, and why? We all know that no horse is perfect-but where should certain defects fall on the 'scale' of importance to the horse's use, whether as a breeding or as a performance animal?
 
Hey Cowboy Kerry!

Did you happen to spend time with our dwarfs when you were by Thursday? Not that they are minimal in any way! Full fledged darlings but exhibiting all the obvious signs...makes me especially aware of our responsibilities when breeding miniatures. I would not take the chance if I suspected a mare or stallion was even a tiny bit dwarfy or a suspected carrier. No reason why they shouldn't be loved & cared for but I wouldn't want to produce one. Minimal expression dwarfs could make great pets & companions, just NOT breeding stock.
 
Hey Cowboy Kerry!

Did you happen to spend time with our dwarfs when you were by Thursday? Not that they are minimal in any way! Full fledged darlings but exhibiting all the obvious signs...makes me especially aware of our responsibilities when breeding miniatures. I would not take the chance if I suspected a mare or stallion was even a tiny bit dwarfy or a suspected carrier. No reason why they shouldn't be loved & cared for but I wouldn't want to produce one. Minimal expression dwarfs could make great pets & companions, just NOT breeding stock.
Hey!

Yes, I did get to see your dwarfs when I was by. So sweet but it's so sad at the same time. I'm so glad they found someone so caring to look after them.
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To the list of dwarf characteristics I would add a very shortened neck, sometimes raised and pronounced spine, and a shortened face.

The following is a pic of a dwarf owned by a friend of mine. The original owner was going to euthanize him, and the vet asked for a week to find someone who would take him, and my friend agreed to do so, knowing he was a dwarf. All she wanted to do was give him a loving home.

Incidentally, the pictured horse is a full brother to one of my geldings and a half brother to my other gelding. Both my geldings are fine, but they were the first two minis I ever owned, and purchased before I decided to get into breeding and showing, so I had them gelded, although one of them was entered in a show (the first time I showed and knew nothing!!!), and won three firsts in Liberty and a first and two seconds in Color).

Anyway, if you look at little "Spike's" head, you'll see the face is very much shortened, as is his neck, and if you can see where his ear is, it's really off to the side of his head. Spike also has a very pronounced, raised spine, and is quite clubfooted, and has an extremely low tail set.

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I think this is a good topic, and it would be very helpful if any others who have dwarves or have friends with them could post pictures and discuss conformational defects which illustrate dwarfism. If it would be helpful, I can get full body pics of Spike it needed.

SandyP
 
I think we have to be a bit careful labelling minis as dwarfs if they have just one thing such as a slight under/over bite or are low on their pasterns as foals since these are conformational problems any breed of horse can have. 2 yrs ago I had a foal born that was very low on the back pasterns so I had a farrier out who specialises in problems, and he said he sees that a lot in regular sized youngsters too which really surprised me. Parrot or monkey mouth too is in all horse conformation books as a common fault, not indicative of dwarfism necessarily. Doesnt the AMHA say there will be 2 or more signs if its dwarfism??? I could be wrong so feel free to correct me but I thought I read that. I have a mare that has a slight bulge above her eyes and she is definitely not a dwarf and has come from a very reputable breeder here on this forum, but I have seen some minis that have a big bulge along with a dip or flat area between the eyes that does look odd...is this what you mean???

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I believe AMHA rules say that a mini must display 3 or more Dwarf characteristics to be considered a Dwarf & denied registration. Altho, I could not find anything on this in the 2006 AMHA rulebook.
 
I believe AMHA rules say that a mini must display 3 or more Dwarf characteristics to be considered a Dwarf & denied registration. Altho, I could not find anything on this in the 2006 AMHA rulebook.
I agree with Dona here. I too recall hearing/reading this somewhere, but not sure where. It was most likely posted here on the Forum by Tony in previous dwarf topics. Tony????
 
I dont think that we should get so hung up on what they are called- a dwarf is a dwarf and I am sure the expressions used are related to whether it is an 'obvious' one or one exhibiting lesser or harder to distinguish signs.

I was always told to watch for the above conformation things and also to look at overall balance. Is the horse longer than it is tall? (sort of the 'snausage' type)... Since there are many different types of dwarfs, it seems some signs may be more apparent than others, depending
 
the only reason i am picking about what to call it is too many people assume that a minimal dwarf is less dwarf then a dwarf. They absolutely are not. they just dont "express" the gene on the outside. honestly we should just stop using minimal dwarf all together. A horse is either a dwarf or its not
 
Kay kay, I totally agree with you there! I guess it is just a 'description of appearance' to some?
 
I believe AMHA rules say that a mini must display 3 or more Dwarf characteristics to be considered a Dwarf & denied registration. Altho, I could not find anything on this in the 2006 AMHA rulebook.
I agree with Dona here. I too recall hearing/reading this somewhere, but not sure where. It was most likely posted here on the Forum by Tony in previous dwarf topics. Tony????
I don't think that you will find it in the rulebook, but it is an office policy of the registration department, adopted by the Board of Directors years ago. It was actually two characteristics or one characteristic depending on the severity and was adopted February 3-4, 1989. You can read an article written by Barbara Ashby, then editor of the Miniature Horse World and registrar at the time, which was published in the magazine in June/July 1990 (?) issue. Unfortunately I don't have the year marked on my copy in my file and didn't take the time to go through my magazines to find it.

Dwarfism Checklist
 
That's my Nell! Just to let everyone know...she is fat and sassy and doing great. We never could get that foot fixed, but you'd never know there was anything wrong with it, she runs and bucks and plays like there's no tomorrow! : )

Christy

i personally hate the term minimal dwarf and always say minimal expression dwarf. There is nothing minimal about a minimal dwarf. A horse either is or isnt but some just dont show it as much on the outside. Nell that CMHR took in is a good example. She looks almost normal but has a wierd leg deformaty and her head just doesnt look quite right. When we had her under vet care we found her insides were very much that of a dwarf. So even though on the outside she didnt look like "a full blown dwarf" (another term i dont like) she most definately was

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nellfoot.jpg

Okay folks, how about some help? I want to post a pic of Nell's little buddy Peanut (aka "Nutty"), she's a brachycephalic dwarf. How do I insert a pic? The only thing I could find was a box that I could type in a URL.

Christy
 
I don't think anyone should get hung up on the term minimal dwarf. Dwarfism is a genetic disease. So being that it can effect horses differently. When I read a minimal dwarf I understand them to me that it is a dwarf that is minimally effected. My daughter has a genetic disease and has been minimally effected by it. She leads a normal life whereas some people who are severely effected are in wheel chairs and mentally handicapped. It does not mean she has the disease less because she is minimally effected. Same goes for a dwarf. It doesn't make them less of a dwarf but means they are minimally effected by their dwarfism. At least that's the way I understand people's meaning. Does that make more sense?
 
There are so many theories, but not enough solid research yet as to the causes of dwarfism.

I personally refuse to believe EVERY conformation issue is a sign of dwarfism. It can just be poor conformation often a serious fault, but not necessarily a dwarf or minimal dwarf 'sign'.

Not to say those horses should be used for breeding, but with the fairly broad 'breed standard' we have from both registries and the fact that minis aren't classed as a breed, but a height registry it's hard to establish exactly what a mini should be.

Some horses have small eyes - flaw or fault? That will depend on the breeder and judge.

Some have bad bites - sign of dwarfism or genetic fault or no/poor dental care?

There are definitely some identifiable phenotypical faults that are easily recognized and attributed to a mini being classed a dwarf, but a mini with a long back isn't automatically a dwarf in my opinion, maybe just from a line of long backed horses - not necessarily desirable trait, but not necessarily the end of the world!

I was given this at the AMHA Convention in Portland from the Genetics Committee - (it's a MSWord Doc, so excuse the formatting)

Some Common Phenotypical Characteristics of Dwarfism in Miniature Horses

A Checklist for Miniature Horse Breeders

Check One

None Moderate Severe 2. Dwarf foals are often born with retracted tendons, club feet and

buck knees that cannont be straighten out at birth. Joint enlargements and joint deviations (epiphyseal growth irregularities) are common. Extreme cow hocks, extremely short gaskins and severe sickle hocks, all with varying degrees of visible “joint looseness†and/or joint weakness are also common. Premature arthritic processes take place in most dwarfs, resulting in progressive ambulatory disabilities.

None Moderate Severe 3. Undershot jaw (“Bulldog†or “monkey biteâ€). The molars,

therefore are also mal-aligned, requiring that the teeth be floated much more frequently than for a normal horse.

None Moderate Severe 4. One type of dwarf has a large bulging forehead with extreme

dish (convex) face and turned up nose. Overly large and protruding eyes (sometimes placed at uneven angles.) Nostrils placed too high up on the face (brachycephalic). A second type of dwarf has a more normally shaped head and eye but the head is still much to large for its body. This type of dwarf does not usually have an undershot jaw as described in #3.

None Moderate Severe 5. Head obviously longer than neck (the distance from the poll to

the withers should always be at least 1.1 times the distance from the tip of the nose to the poll. In full size horses, the neck is almost 1.5x longer than the head.) In some dwarfs, the neck is so short that the head appears to come directly out of the shoulders.

None Moderate Severe 6. Girth depth greater than leg length; enlarged entrails and

genitals. Pot bellies are inevitable.

None Moderate Severe 7. Scoliosis, kyphosis and/or lordosis (vertebral deviations) are

common.

None Moderate Severe 8. Often unable to rear or stand on hind legs. Odd tilting

‘backward’ gait, with shoulder markedly higher than croup.

None Moderate Severe 9. Mental retardation and inactivity/depression (probably due to

pain) are often sequel to the various forms of dwarfism.

The decision of the AMHA Board at its meeting on February 3-4, 1989, was that if a horse exhibited any two of the above characteristics it would not be registered with AMHA. The presence of only one characteristic might prohibit registration depending on the severity.
 

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