Farrier Rant

[HorseMom]

I've been having a problem with farriers and owning mini horses. The majority seem to think that they are just pets and don't take their trims seriously. The last one decided that he was going to completely change Jay's angle without discussing it with me first. Jay is dead lame, and this is a horse that has never been lame. Jay looks like he has four club feet when he really doesn't. I hate to see Jay so uncomfortable. I sent an e-mail to the farrier to ask him what I should do to make it easier for him until the feet grow back. I was very nice in the e-mail and tried to sound like I wasn't blaming him. He got very defensive and told me that it wasn't him, that Jay must have gotten hurt when I worked him over the weekend. I didn't work him until this morning and only did a short lunge because it was obvious that he was lame. I did lunge him before the trim on Friday, he'll stand better once that excess energy is burned off. The farrier said that Jay should have been lame right off the bat if it was the trim. Is that true? He also said that he didn't hit pink or get blood and that's the only way a horse would be lame after a trim. I don't think that's true. I just want to have all my ducks in a row before I send him another e-mail. I've also called the vet that boards at the farm to see if he could take a look just in case it is something else.

I've had to stop Jay's training, this is going to be a huge set back in our CDE training. The good news is I'll have lots of time to work on clicker training Jay.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Hi, Lots of sympathy here, I know what you mean and it is totally frustrating. Is your mini lame on the front, rear or all around?.

I just changed farriers and one of the new guys was saying "You have to leave the heel really long on these little guys..." and I spent some time trying to explain that I wanted angles just like a big horse, in line with the pasterns etc etc... If you stand them up too straight and leave the heels too long, they land on their toes and can get sore. If it is the rear you are having problems with lameness, the wrong angle can make a stifle issue appear where it wasn't... You can trim too short and not get blood and still make them WAY sore.

There are many ways to make a horse sore and not draw blood.

I hope you work it out, but I totally understand your vent. I am shopping farriers right now after my long time farrier moved away, and it is very stressful. My newest farrier is an amish guy that looks like he is about 14 years old, but he is being very careful and knock on wood, so far is really trying to be careful about the angles and take his time. Will take me a few tries to get comfortable. PS, if it wasn't the trim, you might have a gravel or stone bruise brewing and the trim hurried things along, so getting somebody to look at the feet is a real good idea. My friend just dealt with a pocket on her horse's foot that popped up seemingly overnight. The farrier had to really dig to find the spot and then it just popped and drained. Best wishes for a fast solution

 

[chandab]

Not necessarily this situation, but I so understand farrier woes... I live in the middle of nowhere, and we seem to be in horse supply/service no man's land, despite there being many horses. [Many do their own farrier work and dont do anything extra for their horses.]

Anyway, I've been through 3-4 horseshoers in the last 10 years: first was ok, but became hard to get ahold of (didn't like the minis when I added them); second left the country to marry his Danish girlfriend (he was very good, but not easy to get ahold of); third was second's brother and decided to quit horseshoing and go to vet tech school (he was so-so for skill, but pretty good about treating them right). He left Dec 2008, we had a lousy winter with tons of snow, we were snowed in off and on most of the winter, so there was no way I could try to get a new farrier in here under those circumstances, I started trimming them myself to try to keep up, but I have 3 problem kids (laminitic issues) and my skills aren't that good. Finally, winter broke and I found a new farrier, his wife told me he perferred not to do minis, so I only scheduled for the saddle horses, and then talked to him in person. We initially had some scheduling problems, but he was since dropped some difficult clients and said he should be easier to get ahold of. My saddle horses' hooves haven't looked better in a very long time. He's now done the three problem girls at least once (one twice) and all three are standing more normal than they have in months, all are starting to move better. I hope I don't have to change farriers again for quite some time, now that I finally found someone who can trim my horses.

 

[Indy's mom]

I don't have any answers for you but this thread seems like it should go under the regular mini forum! It would get more traffic there and probably some more answers!!

Good luck with your poor boy!!!!

Tammy

 

[My2Minis]

I hope you can find a good farrier. Both of my minis came with bad feet and my farrier has their feet looking great now. She is a Natural Balance trimmer (I'm not sure what that means, but she does a great job and is very gentle with them). I hope I never have to change farriers.

 

[albahurst]

I so feel your pain! I went through many farriers before finding my current one. I looked for certified barefoot trimmers on the internet and found the name of several and started emailing. The one I have is EXCELLENT! Good luck!

PS- Even 'pets' need their hooves trimmed correctly

 

[Katiean]

I know what you are going through with farriers. If his angles were changed it does not have to show up that day and if the farrier is cutting the toes short and leaving the heel long. I think I would just ask the guy nicely if he would come and take the heels down. You do not have to wait for the toe to grow out if the heels are infact long.I had a guy that was making one of my mares feet collaps to the side. My new farrier was leaving her heels long until I had a very casual conversation with her about this mare and that the vet did not agree that she had club feet in the front. She is getting a more normal foot. I had one guy that said you could not trim all of the excess (on the heel) all at once. My new farrier feels you should just trim them with the flat of the foot and forget artifical angles. I tell her what I want from her. She tells me where I can not have what I want. We tallk about it a bit more and she does a real nice job on my kids. My colt was slightly cow hocked and she has checked him over more than once. She trimmed him flat. He walks strait. He just stands like a slob. He has nothing wrong with his confermation. He can stand strait if he wants to. She has gone over his legs more than once . He is just lazy. She has done all of my horses 3 x's now and she is coming back on the second. My colt has never stood better. My farrier does compitions and always places high. She does a very good job. One more note on angles. I had a Standardbred mare that had broken her sesmoid when she was on the track. When I bought her the trainer said I needed to keep the presure off of that sesmoid so I should have her trimmed with a bit higher heel on that foot. I told the farrier to give her a bit steeper angle on "her" right foot. After about 6 months he says "OH, I thought it was "MY" right". What a jerk. Anyway, I bring her up because after that we just had her trimmed flat and put her shoes on. She jumped and did trail and was riden hard with no problems with that sesmoid I was told to keep the presure off of.

One more note; I think if I were in your possition I would call the farrier out again. Get the heels taken down and if I had to pay for the second trim so be it. Your horses feet is more important that arguing with the guy and leaving your guy in pain.

 

[Minimor]

A drastic change in angle can make the horse sore after a couple days--changing the angle affects the tendons & ligaments in the legs, and this is where the horse gets sore--in the tendons. If this farrier took the toes extremely short it's entirely possible that your horse is sore there too--and this could also get worse after a couple days of walking on those too-short toes. It isn't necessary to draw blood or even have pink showing for the foot to be too short. A hoof trimmed too short is easily bruised & if the horse walks a day or two on hard ground...or steps on a stone...the bruising will make him more sore than he was right after the trim.

If the feet look clubbed now, are the heels very long, or did this farrier take the heels short and the toes shorter? I'm just wondering if there's enough heel left that a bit could be trimmed off to make the hoof angle a little bit better?

 

[Genie]

I don't agree that he would be lame right away, nor would he not be lame just because there was "no pink or bleeding".

I have had the horse be slighty sore the following day when I have been overly agressive.

Without seeing a before and after it's hard to say, and I assume it isn't obvious to you with regard to the angle.

 

[maestoso]

I have found that the farriers that I am most happy with are the farriers who have direct experience with miniature horses. My perspective on this is based on the fact that I show, and many here would argue that mini or big horse, show horse or non-show horse, driving horse or halter horse, it is all the same and should be treated as such, I disagree with that, but that's not really what this is about.

I have used 2-3 big horse farriers on my minis, and 3 farriers that breed, raise, and show their own minis. I have also seen the work of a few others that breed and show their own minis. In all cases, I was much happier with the work with the "mini" farriers, even the ones with years and years less experience than the big horse farriers.

To the post, I'm not sure what kind of experience your farrier has, but maybe you can find a farrier with more mini experience?

 

[MiLo Minis]

If it is at all possible I would look for a new farrier - this one is NOT a good one. It is definitely possible to not cut to the pink and still cause soreness. If he drastically changed his angles it wouldn't necessarily show up for a day or two due to tendon soreness or bruised toes or the coffin bone rotating slightly because of the pressure created by the new angle. If it is just the trim that is making him sore he should come around very quickly once he is trimmed properly. Could you clean his feet out well and take photos of the bottom (sole) and from the side to post here? Perhaps if you did that and then printed the replies out you could show them to him and get him to see reason.

 

[HorseMom]

Thanks everyone. I can take pictures later when I go to the farm to check on him. There really isn't much left of the hoof at all, for a farrier to work with. His right front is the worst. It seems to be the front that is hurting him the most. He was very short strided in the front when I lunged him on Sunday morning. And he is certainly not acting like his normal studly self. When the farm owner looked at him she was convinced that it would be a few weeks before I'll be able to work with him, but I'll see what the vet says today.

 

[MindyLee]

As a mini farrier myself, it sounds like too much toe was taken off / hardly any heal and just because he said he didnt hit pink or blood, dosent mean he didnt and just not telling you. Also it most likely will take a few months to get enough hoof back to refix his feet back to the way their supposed to be. SORRY to hear this happened! This is a big thing when it comes to minis EVERYWHERE... and that is why I stepped in and bacame a local mini farrier for our county as that was/still a issue here too.

 

[Sunny]

In the Sept/Oct issue of the American Farriers Journal, there's an article about trimming minis, wherein the author, Lynda Layne, interviewed Frank Lupton of Reflections, A Miniature Horse Farm in Oklahoma City. I hope I'm not breaking any copyright laws by copying some of it here for you. I hope you find it interesting, if nothing else.

Part of the article reads as follows: "Miniatures are animals whose hoof walls may be one-half to two-thirds as thick as those of full-sized horses", he [Frank Lupton] says. "And they weigh only about one-sixth as much. Their feet wear drastically different than those of a full-sized horse. In miniatures, the toe wears more than the heel, so I always take off more heel than toe and the ratio is often 2-to-1 or more." As a result, he believes many farriers are inclined to trim them just the opposite of what would be best for these smaller animals.

"Most people who go to school to be farriers are taught that you don't do much to the frog or heel on full-sized horses," he adds. "But in miniatures, you absolutely have to ruthlessly trim out that frog and heel, or they they will end up club-footed. That's what I see 80% or more of the time when a farrier who deals with full-sized hroses works on miniatures." The result can be a club-footed unbalanced appearing trim that can lead to ring bone and other problems.

"For the most part, I'll trim out frog until I'm down to the sole and then I'll use my nippers and cut away more heel than toe," says Lupton. "After that, I just rasp a little bit and level the foot. Some sole gets left, certainly, but not a lot."

"Lupton can't stress enough the importance of following this "opposite" trimming procedure. Besides the threat of a club-foot situation, he says miniatures are prone to developing contracted heels if they're not trimmed properly or often enough. Their heels will simply grow and roll under."

The article goes on to say, "Lupton says people often ask what angles he likes. "From the point of the toe, to the middle of the fetlock joint, I want to see a straight line," he says. "But what you see most of the time is a very steep hoof and then it breaks over into a sloping pastern."

In the section on trimming babies, the article says, "Lupton stresses the importance of early trimming with miniature foals. "I usually start timming when they're about 2 weeks of age," he says. "Basically, I take off toe to help them stand up a little straighter. When some miniature colts are born, their tendons can be a little bit lax and there's a tendency for them to set back somewhat on their pasterns. Since they're born with losts of toe, that's probably the one time in thier life when you really want to go after the toes and get them standing up a little bit.

"After the initial trim, he touches them up once a month. But in the real world where people don't have a farrier living with them, consistent trimming every 6 to 8 weeks is enough.

"He's seen some miniature foals with legs that went every which way. In thses cases, he recommneds just taking care of their feet and putting off straightening until they get a little age on them."

 

[HorseMom]

Thanks. That is very helpful. I'll have to see if I can find the whole article so I can read it and maybe hand a copy to the farrier.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Although I agree in general with everything that Frank is saying in that article I would add that each and every horse, large or small, has to be taken as an individual - actually every HOOF needs to be taken as an individual so although you can use that article as a guideline you also need to look at each foot you work on and it's particular needs.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Although I agree in general with everything that Frank is saying in that article I would add that each and every horse, large or small, has to be taken as an individual - actually every HOOF needs to be taken as an individual so although you can use that article as a guideline you also need to look at each foot you work on and it's particular needs.

You got that right MiLo Minis..., I had one boy that in particular mostly only grew toe for the first two years of his life and not much heel growth until now at 3. Also, I don't agree with paring down the frog like that article describes either, depends on the horse or mini and individual foot condition. None of my boys have ever been trimmed like that and none of them have club feet or heels that turn under and over grow, their frogs are in excellent shape and the feet on my guys look no different than any full sized horse hoof I have ever looked at, just smaller, but appearance and angle looks identical to that of a full sized horse. Perhaps because my guys are B sized and not A's? The article is an interesting guideline, but doesn't apply to any of my three. The only difference is that my farrier sometimes even kneels on the ground to do the trim.

 

[Royal Crescent]

I had a horse that was trimmed in August. The farrier was trying to change the trim to what she would do for a driving horse. I think we changed it too drastically for one trim. He got extremely sore and would not hardly walk, let alone trot. It took forever just to walk him to my trailer, actually had to push and pull! :arg! I gave him banamine a few times over the next few days. My other driving horse got sore also, but not to that extent. I could not work the more lame one for at least a week, but with time he was fine with the new angles. I learned my lesson, that if you are going to change something, you do it gradually!

By the way she is a good farrier, just not the one that was usually doing my horses. She does other driving horses that I know and this was the same kind a trim. My other farrier is does a good, safe trim and does not want to learn anything specific to minis/show horses.

Barb

 

[MindyLee]

Although I agree in general with everything that Frank is saying in that article I would add that each and every horse, large or small, has to be taken as an individual - actually every HOOF needs to be taken as an individual so although you can use that article as a guideline you also need to look at each foot you work on and it's particular needs.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS!!!

EXAMPLES...

All 7 of my minis have different hoof styles and must be trimmed differently cause of this. I have a stud and mare whos outside back feets grow taller then the insides and need the outsides trimmed more than the inside. Also have a mare who has long skinny rear hoofs with hardly any heals which mostly toe has to be taken, and her front feet have very tall heals and hardly grows in the toes which make her club foot looking so I mostly only take heal and leave the toe and just rasp it to make it look good and it makes the club fook disapear. I have jr mare whos front feet are all heal and needs them to be taken down A LOT but her rear hoofs have no heal and lots of toe so I only trim her toes in the rear and heals in the front to balance her out. And last but not least, I have a mare who has slightly rolled outside rear hoofs so I only lightly nip the roll away and take mostly her inside off to balance her out in the rear end. Her front looks great and is equally trimmed all the way around the hoof. The other 2 rare pretty normal and are easily trimmed on all 4 feet. After a fresh trim YOU can not see any small flaws that my minis have untill it is close to trimming time again and not once after a trim have I noticed any disconfert or lammness on anyone as they all look/feel pretty darn good.

So again, not all feet are the same and must be trimmed a certian way to balance that certian mini out in the end.



ALSO... I dont know if its just me but when everyone here posts photos of their minis, I seem to always look at their feet first to see what type of hoof style they have or what condition they are in... I guess I'm just weird but oh-well...

 

[Mominis]

I am so sorry to hear about your hoof issue. Maybe this is just my obsessive tendancies coming through (lol), but I used to keep a notebook on every horse that I had. Included in that, among quarterly photographs, feed notes, vet notes, average temperatures, work/schooling notes, supplementation notes, allergies, etc., was the farrier information.

I had the angle (and every different angle, down to the exact degree, that we tried with a particular horse) along with that horses shoe type(s), pad (s), shoe weight(s), etc. I found that keeping a notebook took a lot of the guesswork out of problems that would arise. I'm not saying that it fixed everything, but it sure gave us information to refer back to if we ran into an issue. Once you get the little guy back to normal, you may consider noting the angle that the horse looks and feels his best, for future reference. Just a suggestion.