cart questions, please chime in if you know the answers

[Carolyn R]

Carolyn, the Lignite was well-regarded by many; I'd looked at Jim Dingman's website and strongly considered one, myself, a few years back. As far as being suitable for marathon...at Training level, I don't see why not! From what I observed, lots of mini horse drivers start there with the most basic of carts, like the Frontiers and other 'pipe' carts, right down to the pneumatic tires. It is only at the higher levels that 'stricter' requirements come into play, such as no pneumatic wheels/wire spokes(it is considered a safely issue by ADS--such wheels don't withstand side pressures such as may be encountered on marathon/hazard courses, as well, and may 'collapse' or 'fold'...NOT a good thing!)That IS your current cart, right? If so,IMO, I'd say you could CERTAINLY start with it, while you continue to gather info about ALL the other options.

Yes, I have this cart, I have been through two Grabers (first one I decided I wanted bigger wheels, but it had been manufactured as a closed 20" wheel cart, would not accept larger wheels. Second Graber was ordered through a secondary company, not through Mr. Graber himself, which is what I should have done. Long story short, got a closed wheel 24" cart which made the shafts way too high. Lesson learned, Mr. Grabber is very knowledgable, If I get another Graber, order it directly from him as an open wheeled cart with after market adapters to make it closed wheel. He even said he could set the shafts lower than ave.on the open wheeled cart when requested.

So, since I sold the other cart & If were to buy another cart(s) which I plan to.....

I can buy something like a Graber and a hyperbike or cry as I hand over the cash and buy something like a smartcart and nothing else.

 

[MiLo Minis]

No,thats my daughter and son just out for a quick ride about 2.5-3 years ago. I know better as far as the shaft placement, It just happens to be one of the clearer photos of the cart itself,

The cart is actually lighter, about 75LBS, but with suitable wheels I would still be looking at a substancial weight. I appreciate the input about the shafts. This is why I am here, to sponge up as much info as I can before I purchase another cart

You all are just giving me more and more leverage in my "argument" of reasons to try out a hyperbike when discussing things with my husband!

Oh good! I am VERY glad to hear that because your little horse does look like a great little driver and I hate to think of any horse being that uncomfortable for any length of time

I won't help you in your argument for a hyperbike as I considered one myself and upon investigation decided that it was just too dangerous a contraption to make it worthwhile purchasing. Even with the most dependable of horses, stuff happens, and the method of getting seated in a hyperbike could lead to serious trouble in my opinion. You can do things without incident 100 times and then there is that one time.....nope, not for me.

 

[susanne]

Carolyn,

I'm still such an inexperienced driver that I hesitate saying anything...just keep in mind that I'm still a total newbie.

The carts I've drooled over that I consider very close are the ones Margo mentioned (Smart Cart, Bellcrown, Bennington, IteBte, Scotsman, also the Ahonen and PT Cruiser...and I like what I've seen and heard about the Lignite...wish he still made them.

(Someone on LB does CDEs in a Lignite...is it Dr. Pam's daughter?)

The one that comes closest to being my dream cart is the Bellcrown Aerocrown, except that it is made for smaller minis than Mingus. It has a removable basket and stirrups, has heavier duty finish than the Minicrown, and they were talking about having two seats for it.

Margo, I borrowed Daryl's (BigDogsLittleHorses) hyperbike and used it for the 2nd day of Happs VSE Driving Trials Twice. My CTM EE cart took an unplanned exit off the roof rack of our van just days before the event, so he offered his HB and another friend loaned me an older training cart. I nearly came off the latter on level ground (my benchmark for driving discomfort -- a wooden seat, no less!), so I used the HB on the second day.

Lori, Just my opinion, but I find the hyperbike easier to get in and out of than many not-so-easy entry carts, and easier to stay in, when that's what you want.

A lot of people wonder what happens if the horse has to go to the bathroom. I drove Liz's mare, Cherry Bomb, and she let loose with a tidal wave of urine...not a drop landed upon me.

At Happs, for our first creek crossing, we had to descend a rather steep bank, and Mingus decided halfway down to turn to the left, then go back up the bank. For a short time I sat at a rakish 45 degree angle over the creek. In any other cart, I would have been swimming, but the hyperbike kept me secure and balanced. Steep as the bank was, we came nowhere near tipping over. We went back up and approached the creek again, this time with no trouble.

So I'd never suggest that someone drive a cart in which they felt unsafe, but after driving several different minis, all of different sizes, in the HB, I feel safer in it than a cart where I'd have to climb over the seat or high shafts to get out.

According to my notes, the hyperbike wheelbase is 48 inches...I don't know if Bob can do any tweaking on that, but each one is built for the individual horse and driver.

 

[suncountryranch]

Hi...I just posted the reply below in another topic but will repost it here too.

I can tell you that Pacific Carriage does not offer a holiday sale, but it did not hurt to ask!

There is a variety of nicely made carts on the market that are very suitable for CDE,

but I happen to really like the Pacific Smart cart too.

About nine years ago I questioned the company to see if they would make a mini vehicle. At that time

no mini cart was offered by them, and they would not custom make one. As soon as I found out

that the Smart Cart was in production I bought one and became a dealer. I've always loved

the overall quality of the vehicle and it's adjustability. (If you have any questons, I would be happy to

answer them for you.) You can view a variety of different size minis put to the Smart Cart on my website. http://suncountryminis.homestead.com/Smart...otoGallery.html

The first pix are "A" sized minis, and the mini facing away in a lower picture is also an "A" size at about 32".

The others range from 35 to 37". There are also some pictures showing the cart NOT adjusted to the

horse size properly, but it's a great way to see the difference that can be made in setting up the cart!

The best way to find a cart that works for you is to try it. There are so many factors that go into a decision.

What is perfect for one person is terrible for the next. Each of our driving situations can be completely

different....from the terrain we drive on to our own ability to get in and out of the vehicle quickly!

Drive Happy...

Debra Bohnsack

http://suncountryminis.homestead.com

 

[Bluerocket]

We recently purchased a Smart Cart. We have several large A minis (33 - 34") and one large B mini (39") and thought this would be the perfect cart to be able to use for all of them at one time or another. The other cart we were considering was a Bellcrown. However, it would not work for the B mini.

We love the Smart Cart! At the National Drive I had it weighed. With the Marathon shafts and our spares kit (heavy thing) plus some seat flanges - the cart weighed 128 lbs. Some people there thought the scales were running about 6 lb heavy - and we believe the spares kit is about 10 lbs (lots of hardware in it). So the cart with those extras weighs 115 - 120 lbs or so.

We bought the cart for my husband to use. He is 190 lbs and is new to driving.

We currently use it with our 33.75" mini, Platinum who weighs 303 lbs (at least he did at the National Drive on the same scales that we used to weigh the cart).

The cart was professionaly assembled and adjusted specifically for my husband and this mini. When my husband is sitting in the cart and there is no horse attached, and the shafts are level, there is 8 lbs of weight in the shafts.

Here are 2 photos of my husband and Platinum on their first drive with the cart - the day we went to pick it up and try it out (and it was adjusted for them). Please note, our traces were too long to have the shafts adjusted properly - so they are set 3" too long for this horse. We now have the right length traces and have re-adjusted the shafts - I just don't have any good photos of them with it all right.

We love this cart. Platinum does not seem to have any additional difficulty pulling my husband in it with this cart vs the Frontier Easy Entry + Steel wheels that I drive (it weighed 97 lbs on those same scales). I don't think we have ever had the Frontier balanced properly on him with Kim driving.

I will say that I personally believe that it is very important to adjust this cart properly to horse and driver. It is also important to have the harness adjusted correctly. If you do it right, riding in this cart is better than riding in a Cadillac!

Any way - can't say enough great stuff about this cart. No, I am not a dealer -- and our cart is NOT for sale! Saving up the money to buy a 2nd one for me!

I have seen them for sale used. They do come up for sale from time to time.

Again - here are two photos. I think it is cool that in the top photo Platinum has all 4 feet off the ground! Not sure if you will be able to tell from this pic.

Edited to fix photos

JJay

 

[Shari]

Love the Photos. One thing about the Smart Cart I have liked, is the shafts. Think Maggie would be much happier with the marathon shaft ends.

 

[moriah]

We currently use it with our 33.75" mini, Platinum who weighs 303 lbs (at least he did at the National Drive on the same scales that we used to weigh the cart).
Here are 2 photos of my husband and Platinum on their first drive with the cart - the day we went to pick it up and try it out (and it was adjusted for them). Please note, our traces were too long to have the shafts adjusted properly - so they are set 3" too long for this horse. We now have the right length traces and have re-adjusted the shafts - I just don't have any good photos of them with it all right.

Any way - can't say enough great stuff about this cart. No, I am not a dealer -- and our cart is NOT for sale! Saving up the money to buy a 2nd one for me!

JJay

JJay, What kind of breast collar is on Platinum? I like the V shape but havn't found anywhere to get one like this.

 

[Minimor]

moriah--I can't say just what harness is shown in JJay's photos (I was wondering the same thing, and thought it looked a bit like the CDE harness sold by Ozark Mtn. but am not sure that it is) but I can tell you that Ozark Mtn. does sell a V breastcollar with their carriage harness. You can also purchase that V breastcollar separately--which is what I did last year. When I got my carriage harnesses only the straight breast collar was available, so when the V breastcollar became available last year I ordered one. I like it, and will be ordering another one for the other harness next year. I may even be ordering another one in pony size but will wait & see what I buy for a pony harness first.

 

[Bluerocket]

The harness Platinum is wearing is sold by both Camptown Harness and Chimacum Tack. I believe the collar is called an Empathy Collar -- We have purchased one full harness from each vendor. The harness comes in brass or chrome. Both vendors have excellent service and very similar pricing. The harness are made by the same harness maker. This is a synthetic harness. I think there are a few leather parts on it (crown piece and some others) but the rest is betathane. It is extremely well made.

The saddle in these harnesses is also seems very comfortable - it is wide, has a tree and is nicely padded. None of the mini show harnesses that I had previously purchased (and I had 2 very nice ones - now sold) SEEM to be as comfortable to the horse - although they have a more streamlined and elegant look to them.

We love both of the ones we have. Looking to buy a 3rd next year for the B horse.

I can tell you that after changing to this shape breast collar, I will never use a straight one again. It makes a huge difference in the horse's way of going. Frees up the shoulder and the windpipe (especially with a low set neck).

Please note, we do not compete in anything at this time. We pleasure drive only and mostly drive cross country.

I bought this cart as a surprise Birthday, Christmas, Anniversary present for my husband. He had had surgery earlier this year and was just plain uncomfortable riding in either of our other carts on anything other than pavement. With the Smart Cart you can adjust the suspension (air bags no less) for the amount of cushion or bounce that you want. Its a really cushy ride! He won't sit in any other cart now at all.

I chose the marathon shafts and the side flanges for safety and easy of use. Since we go mostly cross country on our drives - bumpy, hilly ground, I wanted to make sure the shafts would not slip out of the tugs - nor get caught on any brush or obstacle (hubby is somewhat of a novice). The side flanges for the seat are extremely adjustable and make there be less room to slide from side to side in the seat. You can remove them totally if you wanted 2 people to sit in the cart. Neither myself nor my husband are small enough people for a 2nd person to ride with us - so that is not really a consideration.

Please note that the marathon shafts require a special tug on your harness - a quick release tug. We also bought quick release snaps to attach the traces to the singletree. The traces we use now (not in these pictures) on this cart are almost 10 inches shorter than the traces we use on the other 2 carts. Have no idea why.

Here is a picture of a Smart Cart standalone showing the seat flanges. You can also get these as part of a wedge seat if that is the kind of seat that you prefer.

Our other two carts are a Pequea wooden easy entry road cart with wooden wheels and a frontier easy entry that we have added steel wheels from driving essentials (I think) and a different singletree. The Pequea fits a skinnier or at least a fit mini best. I like the suspension on it (2 leaf springs) The Frontier is what I use currently as the mini I drive does not fit well in the Pequea. I do like the Frontier myself as well. I believe Silver Penny sells the Pequea cart as well as some other vendors.

Here is a picture of the Pequea from 2006 at our first and only CDE. Platinum and I - before we discovered the empathy collar and synthetic harness. I understand that technically with a russet harness - all the leather and metal on your cart is supposed to be brown.

JJay

 

[Bluerocket]

Here is a picture of the Frontier with the steel wheels, whip holder and new singletree. Not a good picture but you get the idea.

 

[Bluerocket]

Would this cart, with proper wheels, be appropriate for the marathon portion of the course? (or is the wheel base too narrow?)I plan on getting a hyperbike but until I do.......I love this cart, and my boy trucks around in it with no issues. I wish the maker still advertised them (lignite carriage company)

Hi Carolyn:

Sorry to be posting so much on your thread --- wanted to address your question. Have studied this picture - I don't think the wheels are the problem -- as they appear to be quite large for a mini cart.

The axle looks to be in the middle of the cart and I believe that on most mini carts the whole basket/seat/suspension configuration sits on TOP of the axle. Is there a way you could move the location of the axle attachment to under the cart? or lower down (to raise up basket, seat and shafts)? Maybe sitting on top of the axle would be too high - or easily toppled over. What is the wheel base of the vehicle?

It sure is CUTE though and looks plenty sturdy enough. I have never seen a picture of a lignite before.

You also might want to adjust the seat (it looks like it is adjustable) to however it fits you with your back against the backrest and feet able to brace on the floor/basket. As you mentioned you are not the one in the cart in the phot.

With those changes you might find that cart ok for CDE - at least at training level.

If you look at my Frontier cart picture above -- those 2 steel wheels are 30 lbs of the 97 lbs the entire cart weighs.

Can you see in my Pequea and Frontier photos how those carts sit on top of the axle? vs how yours is setup?

Don't know if this helps you or not. Heck - don't really even know if that would fix the height situation either.

JJay

 

[Minxiesmom]

JJay,

A question about your steel wheels. It looks like these are the 24". What are your thoughts on using 30" wheels vs 24" wheels? I have 30" wooden wheels for my Jerald that I have used for an HDT and country driving and I like them. I want to put steel wheels on my EE pipe like your Frontier. It doesn't look like they have any sort of rubber on them? Is it needed?

Here is a picture of the Frontier with the steel wheels, whip holder and new singletree. Not a good picture but you get the idea.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I'm not JJay, but I can tell you that yes, there IS rubber on those wheels. It is a hard rubber insert, probably 'square'(they also come in 'half round'). It would rattle your TEETH out, and be extremely noisy, among other things, to have only bare metal; it just about 'isn't done' nowadays, on ANY vehicles!

I believe it is 'generally' accepted that a larger diameter wheel will roll a bit more easily, other things being equal. However, it is always a 'trade-off' between that 'benefit', and the added weight of a larger diameter wheel, esp. with minis-at least in my opinion and experience. My wooden wheels for my Jerald "model A" were their original, 30", 16 spoke wheels, and they added CONSIDERABLE weight--I ended up using them very little mostly for that reason. Jerald later switched to a 12 spoke wheel, in both 24 and 30" diameters, helping with the weight issue.

Margo

 

[REO]

Great pics JJay!

Very nice to see you here and I enjoyed your posts!

 

[moriah]

JJay,

Thanks so muh for the info. on the breastcollars.

And one more question:

I currently have a Smartcart but not with the marathon shafts. We haven't used the cart yet. Can you also tell me more about the quick release traces and snaps that you mentioned in your posts? How do they work? Thanks again for the information!

The harness Platinum is wearing is sold by both Camptown Harness and Chimacum Tack. I believe the collar is called an Empathy Collar -- We have purchased one full harness from each vendor. The harness comes in brass or chrome. Both vendors have excellent service and very similar pricing. The harness are made by the same harness maker. This is a synthetic harness. I think there are a few leather parts on it (crown piece and some others) but the rest is betathane. It is extremely well made.
The saddle in these harnesses is also seems very comfortable - it is wide, has a tree and is nicely padded. None of the mini show harnesses that I had previously purchased (and I had 2 very nice ones - now sold) SEEM to be as comfortable to the horse - although they have a more streamlined and elegant look to them.

We love both of the ones we have. Looking to buy a 3rd next year for the B horse.

I can tell you that after changing to this shape breast collar, I will never use a straight one again. It makes a huge difference in the horse's way of going. Frees up the shoulder and the windpipe (especially with a low set neck).

Please note that the marathon shafts require a special tug on your harness - a quick release tug. We also bought quick release snaps to attach the traces to the singletree. The traces we use now (not in these pictures) on this cart are almost 10 inches shorter than the traces we use on the other 2 carts. Have no idea why.

JJay

 

[RhineStone]

JJay, are you sure that's not a Freedom Collar from Camptown? The Empathy is by Zilco. They both are designed with the same purpose, to give freedom of movement and let the mini breathe at the same time. My gelding loves my FC, as I think his windpipe is tied in to his neck below the points of his shoulders! We borrowed an Empathy for our big horse, and he loved it, so we bought a FC for him, because the Empathy doesn't come in brass to match the rest of our harnesses. At least not that I found.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Yes, the Empathy is Zilco's 'W-shaped' collar(that's MY term for it, as it looks a bit like a W), and from what I've heard and read, they were the first to make one shaped like that. However, Zilco apparently doesn't make one that is truly small enough for minis-A sized ones, at least--so Camptown adapted the idea and now both Camptown and Chimicum offer it in sizes suitable to minis, as well as in larger sizes, I think. Camptown calls it the "Freedom" collar; not sure what Chimicum calls it, but I understand it is very similar if not identical, and is reportedly made by the same Amish maker. Seems many people who have them LOVE them!

I have a 'deep V" breast collar made by The Carriage House in FL which I like; it just isn't quite as 'extreme' a shape as the others mentioned here-and I think other harness makers also offer similar styles...but the 'Empathy' and 'Freedom' have become very popular; many users like them.

Margo

 

[suncountryranch]

Hi JJay....the pictures look just great! Your husband looks like he is really enjoying himself, and your

horse looks very happy and relaxed. Would you mind if I added them to the Photo Gallery page

on my website? (since you ordered from me) I'm trying to show all different horse sizes and cart options

on that page for people to see what is available.

Debra Bohnsack

Sun Country Ranch

Pacific Carriages

JJay wrote:Here are 2 photos of my husband and Platinum on their first drive with the cart - the day we went to pick it up and try it out (and it was adjusted for them).

 

[Bluerocket]

Sorry folk I don't logon much these days.

Yes those are the Freedom Collars from Camptown and Chimacum. I don't know why I call them empathy collars. My mistake.

About the quik release snaps they go on the single tree and the traces. They are about $75 depending on where you buy them. Nice if you need to detach traces in a hurry and can't relieve the pressure on the traces any other way. The other quik releases are related to the tugs. You have to special order them for your harness. The marathon shafts are made in a "circle" shape sort of - so you can't thread them through the regular tugs. The quick release tugs - well I just need to take pictures to show you- coz I don't think I can correctly describe them. Will try to take pics tomorrow and upload to show you exactly what is what.

The wheels are 26" I believe. Not positive as we have both 26" and 28" wheels. There is a rubber tread on them. The wheel and tread is wide like the pneumatic tires. Wider is better if you want to drive in loose footing like sand rings - and nice on the trail as well.

Thanks for all the compliments. Suncountry (Debra) you are welcome to take the photos off our website if you like. You know how/where we got our cart that we love so much. We hope to buy a 2nd one next year and will send photos of our larger mini when he is hitched, fit and going well.

Thanks to all and Happy Thanksgiving

JJay

 

[sfmini]

I bought a Smart Cart and was just thrilled with finally having legroom. My Frontier cart just kills my knees to the point that driving is no fun. The first time I hooked to it was great, took it to Equine affair to use in the breed demo and it was an embarrasing disaster! Sank down in the footing and my poor guy really had to dig in to make one pass and I slunk out of the ring wanting to crawl in a hole. Haven't touched it since. Haven't driven more than twice since then. Yes, I make Margo look like Twiggy, but have never had that kind of trouble before. I may take it to a rail trail next year and see how that goes and if that doesn't go well I will have to get rid of it.

I do have a freedom collar and I do love it.