cart questions, please chime in if you know the answers

[Minxiesmom]

Jody,

I know how devistating it can be to have the footing so deep our poor little guys can't pull through it! I fight this all the time with our Pinto shows all over the state! At one show this summer they had a 3-5 yr old driving futurity. There were three horses in it. Unfortunately all three were smaller, 31-32". It was embarrassing to watch! Those little guys had to hunch down like plow horses to just go down the rail! The comments that people made were horrible! None of the big horse people understood, it was all because of the depth of the footing. Same horses with the packed footing would have flown around the arena effortlessly.

Something to think about...I haven't done it yet, but many people have...Could you have your horse fitted with a collar and hames with a dropped singletree. If you don't show, this setup is much easier for the horse to pull. I think you would love your Smart Cart with this type of harness. If not, I will take your cart!!!! LOL!!!

 

[Bluerocket]

Here are the promised pictures of the quik release tugs and the quik release snaps for the traces.

Please note that I don't consider myself to be an expert on the proper use of these tugs and quik release snaps on the traces. It is my understanding that this is the correct way to use these. If someone else really is an expert, please chime in and please correct me where I am wrong!

First the tugs. The marathon shaft ends are a solid loop. You have to open the tugs to put them through the shaft loop and hook them back again.

Here are the quik release snaps and the traces.

You can see from the pictures that my singletree has both loops and hooks. Also my traces have both slotted ends and rings.

I believe that the permanent part of the quik release snap attaches to the singletree to the metal loop that is specifically on this cart to use them. The open portion of the snap can be run through either the slotted end of the trace or the ring end depending on what you have on your harness. I also believe I read that the quik release string was to go to the outside. It is possible that I remember that part backwards. It is a very sunny day today so I hope the reflection on the snap does not ruin the picture.

If you have slotted traces you would hook up like this

If you have ring end traces you use the quik release snaps like this.

JJay

 

[Minimor]

Jody, I wouldn't blame the cart because the footing was so deep. I've seen horses bog down with show carts or EE carts in that sort of footing too. Also--I haven't done a comparison but I think when it comes to deep footing the steel wheels are much like the wooden ones--much harder to pull than the pneumatic tires.

Take your cart out on the trails & I think you will love it again!

 

[Margo_C-T]

There's a good bit of anecdotal evidence that pneumatic tires are easier to pull than either steel or wooden ones w/ the solid rubber inserts, under practically all circumstances. That, and the relatively lower cost, is likely why pretty much ALL 'basic' carts,esp. for minis, have pneumatic tires (along w/ the fact that the pneumatics themselves provide some degree of 'cushion' for the ride.)

Jody, I LOVED your comment about making me look like Twiggy--it gave me a great chuckle! However, your point is very salient....IMO, heavy ground is one of the BIGGEST issues facing mini drivers ANYTIME they go outside a 'breed-specific' venue(and sometimes, even then, for many just don't understand how to prepare a ring/arena for mini driving, even when you explain it carefully!) What irks me is that a ring 'can' certainly be prepared firm enough for minis, and it WON'T HURT other drivers/sizes of horses! But too often, other drivers don't realize that, and may argue against preparing a firm ring that will be suitable for minis! I have run into this so many times that I am VERY leery of entering 'open' competitions, period, or even clinics, etc.

Several years ago, I was entered in the Open Driving at our State Fair. I walked the arena early AM on my class day, and it was fine for a mini. When class time came, it was still OK ON THE RAIL, but because they'd (unthinkingly!)held the mule barrels and poles earlier, and for some unknown reason, the arena prep guy had raced in TWICE during only about 6-8 barrel racers, and even less pole benders, and vigorously 'worked' the center of the ring, when it came time to line up and back, that ground was SO deep that my horse couldn't even get the cart to MOVE, scaring him to the point of a small rear before I quit asking him to do it(and this, WITH breeching). Very upset, I wrote to the Horse Show Manager after the Fair, and thankfully, the next year,they rescheduled the timed events to the end of the day (DUH!!!)...but of course, that didn't undo the harm done to my sensitive little horse; he was for quite a time, very nervous about being asked to back.

What you speak of is IMO a VERY concerning issue for miniature drivers. AND, it is a big reason why I continue to seek a GOOD, but very LIGHTWEIGHT, cart!

Margo

 

[susanne]

Holly,

I have a question regarding the Ozark V-shaped breast collar...

I notice that their version has just the single neck hanger. The engineer's daughter in me says that the shape of a deep V would put pressure both on the chest and up over the neck -- as would a soft Eurocollar. As it is, I'd like to see more substance in the neck hanger on the Freedom collar.

Then again, this is purely speculative, as I've never driven with any curved breast collar. Perhaps I'm just nuts, but from appearances, it would seem that the Ozark deep V would put a lot of pressure on a single strap.

Reading that you're very pleased with the Ozark deep-V, I'm wondering if perhaps I'm all wet...

 

[Minxiesmom]

Great discussions going on this thread. A wonderful learning opportunity for the new drivers and also for the experienced.

I have been following a thread on the "Clicker Driving" forum where Barb Lee is active. She was just discussing the Euro collar "Fitting the Euro is just as troublesome as fitting a neck collar and I truly believe, given the position of the trace attachment over the highly mobile lower end of the shoulder blade as a rule, there is just no mechanical advantage to them."

As far as the "Freedom Collar" mine has a very wide piece that goes over the neck with two buckles on each side. Pretty substantial. I haven't seen the Ozark Deep V, except in the catalog, but have to agree with Susanne that it would put pressure on the neck strap, but probably no more than a regular breast collar as long as it has horizontal draft. This is good experience for me to think about how these things actually work! If I am looking at it wrong, please, let's discuss!

 

[Minimor]

Susanne--I haven't found that the V breastcollar puts a lot of pressure on the horse's neck. Granted I don't drive in heavy going but I do drive "off road" where the ground isn't perfectly smooth.

Actually, I don't know as I would call the Ozark breastcollar a "deep" V--I don't think it's as deep as, for example, the Camptown harness in JJay's photo (now I need to go and look again to be sure!)--but it does have enough shape to it that it fits better over the point of shoulder/under the windpipe.

I had big horse harnesses with a very similar shaped breastcollar & a single neckstrap, and even when pulling the cutter (which was considerably heavier than pulling a cart anywhere that I drive) there was not all that much pressure on the neck strap.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I use the Ozark V collar and I really like it. I do drive in heavy going at times and some very hilly country and I am very pleased with the V collar's fit and performance. It isn't as deeply V'd as the Camptown collar. I use a hold back to bring the carrier strap over the waterhook to take any pressure off the horse's neck and I do find that is necessary but I do that with most any horizontal draft collar, V'd or straight, on most horses. I use the end piece of the totally useless (to me anyway

) overcheck that comes with the Ozark carriage harness. I have looked at the Freedom collar and considered it but the way it comes over the shoulder blade has always concerned me so I have been waiting till I saw personally a Mini in harness using it and could get a better feel for it.

 

[susanne]

Okay...I just went to look again at the Ozark site, and I can see where the line of draft is more horizontal than the Freedom Collar -- more like to pull straight through from the chest through traces. I still think I'd be happier with a double strap, but my worries are not based upon any great experience, of course.

I've seen that the Freedom Collar does have that wide piece, but it still seems to me that it could go a step further and create a really nice blend of breast collar and neck collar. (But you've alerted me to the Clicker Driving forum -- yikes!! One I haven't seen!)

 

[Margo_C-T]

I just got my first copy of "Driving Digest", and while I can't seem to find it just at this moment???, I was struck by an ad that showed something that looked to me like a cross between a Eurocollar, and the 'soft' modified neck collar that Breanna (MiniHGal here) often uses, and which was custom made for her by a mini breeder/owner/ driver in CA. I wondered how well it would work?(Of course, odds are it isn't made in 'mini' sizes, so may be a moot question!

I like the concept of the Freedom collar, but do have some concerns about fit for my particular needs. I have a 'deep V' breast collar, so named by the seller, The Carriage House in FL, that I am quite happy with, and use for my larger mini. It has 'floating' trace buckles, so accomodates a higher OR lower draft, in what I believe is a way similar to that of the Freedom collar. It also has a substantial 'double' neck strap. It just isn't as 'extreme' in shape as the Empathy or the Freedom collar.

I have one A mini who is very narrow-fronted, with prominent points of his shoulders, and while I'd like to do all I can to make pulling easy for him, I am afraid a Freedom collar might just 'swallow' him. For my other most-frequently driven A mini, I even got a neck collar, carefully measuring him for proper size, but I can't tell that it made any difference at ALL in his pulling ability--and wonder if it was worth the effort and expense(although now, a neck collar AND hames are notably less expensive than a Freedom collar!)

Am really just mentioning all this by way of 'food' for discussion....so what do some of you with experience with these items, esp. in serious cross-country/uneven terrain driving, and/or with horses of varying builds, think?

And, a question--do the Freedom collars INCLUDE a holdback that can be used to connect the neck strap to the water hook?

Margo

 

[Carolyn R]

Ozarks v breast collar is not extremely deep. I personally purchased it because it was enough of a dip to prevent interferance with the windpipe, but wasn't so over the top with heay duty straps that it distracted the appearance when used with my Graber in the ring. No, it isn't an elegant, fine, streamlined, petite breast collar, but it doesn't scream "cloddhopper in the show ring" either. For one wishing to get their feet a bit more wet in both worlds, without spending thousands in harnesses, it was a good compromise.

 

[Minxiesmom]

Margo asked:

"And, a question--do the Freedom collars INCLUDE a holdback that can be used to connect the neck strap to the water hook?"

There is a strap, but it doesn't easily attach to the water hook. I have to mickey mouse it to attach. When it warms up here a little, maybe tomorrow, I will put the Freedom Collar on Max and take pictures of it.

I like the way it distributes the weight that he is pulling, across a wider area on his chest, compared to his show breast collar. It totally comes up over the point of his shoulder and allows more freedom of movement from what I can observe. He is so stoic that he never shows me if it feels better than the other one, but it looks like it should.

 

[RhineStone]

I LOVE my Freedom Collar. I have not found it to put any more pressure on the neck than any other breastcollar with a horizontal draft. I have found that with the point of the shoulder below the collar the way it is supposed to be, my gelding can move SO much better. (I had a judge from England make the same comment after I had used first the straight breastcollar for Turnout, and then the FC for Working Pleasure.) And since his windpipe attachment is so low, he can breathe SO much better than in a straight breastcollar. I have not used it a lot on my little mini mare, but we don't have her pull a lot of weight, either.

I don't use the strap that attaches to the water hook. I don't think I need it on my gelding.

We bought a FC for our Pinto Arab gelding recently, and the first time he took a step being put to the vehicle, he stopped and hesitated, because he was so used to the pressure across his shoulder when he took a step. When he finally got going, he "paraded" around like he had never felt such freedom! I'm not kidding! Properly adjusted, they are awesome!

My bigger concern with a full collar and hames is the weight of the whole thing on their neck. Maybe somebody makes lighter hames than I have seen. We used the collar/hames on the pair, and they did fine, but it seemed "overwhelming" visually.

Myrna

 

[RhineStone]

In regards to arena surface depth, the carriage shows around here tend to be on grass if possible. All the drivers love grass (except when wet or extremely dry and slippery), because they all realize that any drag on the carriage horses are going to make them pull harder and not look as "free". I know of a draft cross mare that actually loses bending ability when she has to show in a "deep" arena. We attend a CDE where the dressage arena is made of stone dust. Our mini gelding loved that.

We went to three shows this year that had a "riding horse" surface, and I tried my best to navigate the arenas to find the best surface for him. Most of the time, those surfaces deteriorate the more the day goes on. We have decided that we will not exhibit a mini at a deep surface show unless they have a VSE division where it is "level" for all the minis. It is too easy for the judge to "fault" the minis on not being able to pull as well as a bigger horse or pony in a deep arena.

In terms of backing in a deep surface, I have actually reached down and pulled a wheel backwards to help our minis rein back (open wheels, no fenders). Another trick is to make sure that you are backing in the same tracks as you came into line up, or "rock" the horse/vehicle a little before the judge gets to you for inspection. This packs the dirt and makes it a little easier. Also, make sure you are not backing "uphill".

 

[Peggy Porter]

Here's a good photo of me and Butch Cassidy from the National Drive 2009 (note the raingear and the sweatshirt...it was COLD!!) showing the Camptown Freedom Collar. Yes, it does have a double buckle neck strap with a wide piece at the top of the neck. Yes it does have a strap to attach it to the waterhook. The false martingale shown here is not the one that came with the FC (that one was at home attached to the other horse's girth! OOOPS!) and is actually too long (loose). I like the adjustable angle of draft that the FC gives the traces; this cart (Itebte) has a pretty low singletree. A straight breastcollar with standard trace buckles puts waaay too much pressure on the neckstrap. My other VSE has a different build; his neck ties in much lower and the FC really frees up his shoulder and lets him move out much better. The harness is a betathane from Iowa Valley Carriage; the trace carriers are actually beta curb straps. We are on a slight incline in this photo, so the traces are not taut and the breeching is engaged to hold the cart back.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

There is a strap, but it doesn't easily attach to the water hook. I have to mickey mouse it to attach. When it warms up here a little, maybe tomorrow, I will put the Freedom Collar on Max and take pictures of it.

I haven't had any problems with slipping mine on, but I do wish the design was a bit less obtrusive. I suspect Kody needs it as he's so low-headed (although I'll admit I haven't actually tried driving without it) but with his prominent withers and low neck-set the strap is pretty obvious in photos.

A straight breastcollar with standard trace buckles puts waaay too much pressure on the neckstrap.

And worse, it stretches the stitching on the neck strap as it isn't meant to be pulled downwards at an angle like that. Nope, straight breastcollars with lower draft vehicles are a bad idea!

Leia

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I have one A mini who is very narrow-fronted, with prominent points of his shoulders, and while I'd like to do all I can to make pulling easy for him, I am afraid a Freedom collar might just 'swallow' him.
...Am really just mentioning all this by way of 'food' for discussion....so what do some of you with experience with these items, esp. in serious cross-country/uneven terrain driving, and/or with horses of varying builds, think?

When I was talking to Marjean at the National Drive this year she told me they have a new, shorter version of the Freedom Collar available now for smaller minis. I think that's great as Kody is one of the ones for whom the back of the FC very nearly interfers with the saddle and this would solve that problem without changing anything else. Something to think about! The shape is exactly the same, it's just 2" shorter behind the tug.

Leia

 

[Tock's Minis]

What kind of cart are you driving?

 

[Peggy Porter]

It's custom made by Mike Groose of Missouri; his business is called Itebte Buggys. Last I heard, he had some health issues and was not making carts at this time. Do a Google search and you'll get his contact info. (We can't post links on this message board.)

 

[Carriage]

Specific to arena driving and lightweight carts, we had a customer once that said she planned to do almost all her driving on the "dike" near her house. After a short while I got a call saying the cart was too rough for her and could I put a spring on to smooth out the ride.

I was perplexed as the cart should have been ideal for her stated driving area and we were using large pneumatics.

It was then that I found out that she needed to drive in an arena as well. Also that the arena was rarely drug or smoothed out because it was primarily used by riding horses (so whats the need?).

I readily agreed to come up to Happs and install the spring and other tweakings for her but also told her:

"You are taking an ultra light cart and putting it in one of the most abusive and rough terrains possible, yes it will be rough".

The trade-off between light and rough and heavy and rough is that the horse will generally have an easier time pulling the lighter cart however any gain in this area is given away in the amount of transmitted shock to, first the horse and then, the driver. Also the lighter package , driver and cart wise, will realize more shock than a heavier cart in general. A lighter cart is (imo) not the answer to this particular set of givens. I think one could achieve more with tire flotation and the obvious...... drag the areana

Givens are givens and physics is physics so my answer to rough ground is go real fast to smooth everything out. Fast is more fun anyway....

Merry Christmas,

Bb