aids in teaching collection

[MPR]

Would getting elastic side reins or a running martingale be helpful for getting my driving horse more collected? Can the elastic side reins be used when driving or just lunging?

 

[Reble]

Would getting elastic side reins or a running martingale be helpful for getting my driving horse more collected? Can the elastic side reins be used when driving or just lunging?

I am not the driver my hubby is, I have heard a bitting rig helps develop a good head set.

http://www.dsharness.com/bittingrig/

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I bought elastic side reins and then later a martingale, thinking the same thing. I would not recommend using them to teach collection. They are artificial and a horse may appear to be holding his head correctly, but will not have his hind end under him. That is not desireable. I am working on rein and whip cues now, which is working much better.

 

[whitney]

This comes from more riding experience than driving however its the same principle.

1. Drive the horse foward to engage hind quarters and apply half halts. With these aids you are teaching the horse to move correctly. Make sure you retain steady, soft bit contact.

2. If you use "mechanical devices" ONLY you aren't teaching ANYTHING, when the device is removed the horse will quickly realize there is nothing HOLDING them in that postion.

A combination of 1 and 2 is the most effective, but 2. should be loose so that if they are not listening to .1 they can't fall completely apart because of loose 2.

 

[MPR]

Thanks for the info. We'll work on the half halts. I do this when riding my gaited horse.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

If you want to perfect your horse's headset then yes, a check and elastic sidereins will probably do that in conjunction with good rein handling practices. Lunge or roundpen the horse in the bitting rig and then do a lot of ground-driving to help them learn to use their body.

If you want to teach true collection (recycling the horse's energy through their body to create short, elastic steps with all the weight on the hindquarters and the forehand elevated), no, those aids will not help. Sliding sidereins are useful for teaching the horse to engage their back and reach down, which is the first step to being able to hold themselves up, but it's a long process and involves a lot more than that.

Good luck!

Leia

 

[Sue_C.]

I "ditto" whitney and hobbyhorse23.

: True collection comes from the rear, as much in driving, as riding. We should be calling it "controlled/contained impulsion", rather than collection.

:

It is just a matter of being able to find a way to get that same impulsion, and drive, when not on the horse's back. Sometimes it can be frustrating, as so much of it seems so much easier when ridden through. :bgrin

I have one little mare who when being driven by a beginner, will make them think they have her "collected" and going nice and round. What they have is a horse that has learned to cheat; and she just tucks that little head, arches her neck, and her rear-end is about three steps behind.

: :bgrin She will happily tootle around like that forever. Yet when someone gets aboard that cart, that knows how to make her use herself, she pops into frame, gets those back legs up and under herself, and pushes along. I swear she grows two inches when this happens. What an amazing transformation once she gets that engine running properly.

: :bgrin She is the perfect "driver-trainer", as the developement of the driver is so obvious with her.

 

[susanne]

While my personal experience is limited to Mingus' ongoing driving training, everything I've read and our experience so far echoe Leia's comments on sliding sidereins, helping the horse find his own balance, and taking the time to achieve true collection rather than f orcing it.

Heike Bean addresses this quite thoroughly, along with her opinion of most side reins and schooling aids. She recommends using sliding sidereins to allow the horse to find its own balance and that the trainer take the time to develop strength, rear impulsion, and eventually an advanced frame with true collection.

Mingus is just a beginner, but already his work in sliding sidereins has made a huge difference.

 

[MPR]

I'm real new to all this. Could someone explain about the sliding side reins? What are these made of? Can I use them when driving? Where can I get them?

My horse has a pretty strong hind end. He can power me up some pretty steep hills. But when we're on the flat, he just jogs along. May be I should get a video clip of him so you can see if he's using his hind end. He doesn't tuck his nose. Does this mean for certain that he is not rounded?

 

[disneyhorse]

You can teach them to tuck their nose, it just takes some time. My friend who does dressage taught me a way to encourage them to tuck their nose. First, start at the walk. Give a little line pressure until they tuck their nose, and then release.

My stallion had some initial stubborness towards tucking his nose in. I put him in a bitting rig to lunge once or twice and he got the idea. You have to find what makes the horse figure it out.

Also, consider the conformation of your horse... if he has a thick throatlatch he may be unable to naturally tuck the way you might want him to.

Andrea

 

[MPR]

Well, my gelding is a little bit butt high. So, this probably makes it harder for him to round up. His original owner used a running martingale. He did tuck his nose more with it, but I don't remember if he was rounded or not. That was last Summer. Here's a photo of me driving him before I bought him. He has the running martingale on. Sorry, I don't have pictures of him going fast with a side view.

 

[susanne]

Sliding side reins are actually one long line. Since we use a harness saddle in place of a surcingle, we start with the line attached to one tug loop. It then runs forward through one cheek of the bit (broken mouth half-cheek snaffle in our case) , down between forelegs and through a ring or keeper on the lowest point of the girth, back up through the other side of the bit, and then back to the other tug (or side ring on a surcingle). It is only fixed at the starting and end point, and slides freely through girth and bit rings. The horse's head is not fixed in one position...instead he is given a range of movement that, as Heike Bean puts it, "invites" him to find his balance.

You can buy them, but I made my own using coated clothes line...slides easily through the rings, ties well, and I already had it...

While we're still in ground driving, sliding sidereins can be used while driving for a green horse or as a refresher.

 

[MPR]

Are sliding side reins better than a running martingale? Could you post a photo of the clothes line sliding reins in position? How much slack do you give the horse?

 

[wildoak]

Sliding side reins are actually one long line. Since we use a harness saddle in place of a surcingle, we start with the line attached to one tug loop. It then runs forward through one cheek of the bit (broken mouth half-cheek snaffle in our case) , down between forelegs and through a ring or keeper on the lowest point of the girth, back up through the other side of the bit, and then back to the other tug (or side ring on a surcingle). It is only fixed at the starting and end point, and slides freely through girth and bit rings. The horse's head is not fixed in one position...instead he is given a range of movement that, as Heike Bean puts it, "invites" him to find his balance.

What you describe is what I've always called draw reins - at least as a rider. I used them both tied to a saddle to longe, and as actual reins while aboard (just don't depend on getting a stop with them as you are more likely to pull the horse's head to his chest). They can be quite effective if not overdone, and like anything else can become a crutch for your horse to lean on.

Jan

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Are sliding side reins better than a running martingale? Could you post a photo of the clothes line sliding reins in position? How much slack do you give the horse?

All a running martingale does is pull the reins down so the horse is encouraged to follow the pressure and tuck their nose in. Martingales are only intended to keep the horse from throwing their heads up; properly used they should not change the line of the reins at all and as such do no good for setting the head. I personally don't really have a problem with having them marginally tighter, it does encourage the horse to hold a frame and I really don't see it being cruel at all unless the horse is totally winched in top and bottom until they can't move. But the downside is it affects nothing but the head even then, teaching them nothing about using their body.

Sliding side reins are a good aid to teach the horse balance because they can move their head without ever jerking themselves and find out where they are comfortable. It encourages them to give to the bit and lower their head, rounding up their back and thus engaging their hind end. Both kinds of aids, along with fixed elastic sidereins, can be helpful if the driver uses them knowledgeably and with soft hands.

Here is a picture of my horse in home-made sliding side reins at the beginning of his training. I have them set long and attached low on his surcingle to help him learn to reach down. See how the muscles in his neck are flexing? These days he has progressed to a much higher frame on his own and I use the sliding sidereins attached to the highest loop and much shorter. Don't use any siderein for too long at first, the horse needs time to build muscle before he can maintain a frame. One nice thing about the sliding reins is that the horse can extend his neck and get some relief when he needs it, then is encouraged to go back in frame.

Make sure whatever rope you use is of a non-burning kind for the comfort of the horse. Yes, you can use them when driving. They should basically have no effect unless the horse raises his head and goes hollow, then the sidereins react before you can to encourage the horse to stretch down again. Here is a thread with lots of pictures of a big horse using sliding side reins while driving:

Pix of Gabriel by Minihgal

What you describe is what I've always called draw reins - at least as a rider. Jan

Same configuration except you aren't creating leverage as you do when riding. The fixed ends prevent that "curling in" effect that is such an inherent risk with draw reins.

Leia

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I go one further and use an adapted Pessoa- this engages the rear end as no other can and makes it impossible for the horse not to use it's rear correctly.

I have re-educated an 11year old Welsh Cob with a back problem (OH I sorted that too, never fear!!) with this gear- I should patent it, really!!

It works a charm and I shall endeavour to get pictures if you wish, but I may well have to draw it and scan it in as the Cob is now a way a way from me and no longer in training.

 

[MPR]

What kind of rope should I use that won't burn...to make sliding side reins?

Jane,

Sure, post a photo of what you made.

 

[Leeana]

I am wondering if anyone else uses what i use?

I have had great luck with using the leg straps for blankets, you can adjust the pressure pretty easily and they give, easy to attack to the rig and bit. I use these as side reins. Works great, then agian Chief naturally sets his head and collects but they do aid just a tad.

Ta,

Leeana

 

[Reble]

I go one further and use an adapted Pessoa- this engages the rear end as no other can and makes it impossible for the horse not to use it's rear correctly.

I have re-educated an 11year old Welsh Cob with a back problem (OH I sorted that too, never fear!!) with this gear- I should patent it, really!!

It works a charm and I shall endeavour to get pictures if you wish, but I may well have to draw it and scan it in as the Cob is now a way a way from me and no longer in training.

rabbitsfizz, We would be very interested in a drawing or pics...

:

:

 

[whitney]

rabbitsfizz your truely telling secrets now. I have been using a form of Pessoa for over a year now and what RESULTS. I learned it from a well known driving instructor/and her student. Easy to make and what I love about it is the horse trains itself, hard to explain but easy to see the subtle self correction in action.