A call out to anyone with a young dwarf mini

[Arion Mgmt]

Attention everyone

I am coming to this forum for obvious reasons. You have been quite interested in my work and have expressed a willingnes to help if it is needed. As well as being THE forum to be on for anything going on in the Miniature horse world.

Well my situation is muti-fold to say the least but I am currently working on the primary article on dwarfism with regards to its disease pathology with UK's Equine Pathologist Dr. Tom Swerczek. I am asking for anyone that has a young dwarf that is Type 1 and is alive between the ages of 3 months to 9 months and is willing to donate it. If you dont know which type it is, I will be happy to help you figure it out. The understanding is that you are donating it to the University of Kentucky Equine Pathology department for pathological research with this disease. I will be able to work with anyone to arrange transport. I will be the one to care for it until we are ready. This will the for the definitve study of dwarfism Type 1 in the Miniatures. I already have live samples for type 3 that I am caring for and after this study I will be looking for type 2.

My genetic work on the Type 1 is currently going quite well. That is all I can say here. And that is why I need some live type 1 specimens for pathological analysis, for the desciption of the disease and its affect on the growth plates. Unfortunately, I have only been given samples that were not living so far for type 1. I hope that you can understand that I have to do this to be thorough and scientifically sound. If you can help me please PM me here or email me at [email protected] or [email protected]. Thank you for your time and interest.

John

 

[h2t99]

Can you give us a description of a type 1? Is this dwarf going to be used as a live study? Sorry for the confusion!!

Glad to hear your work is going well!!

 

[Arion Mgmt]

Type one is the most common type, i will get a pic of one up soon. A live study to a point. A pathological study obviously involves necropsies of the affected horses.

Can you give us a description of a type 1? Is this dwarf going to be used as a live study? Sorry for the confusion!!

Glad to hear your work is going well!!

 

[horseplay]

To make it clear are you saying the horse will be put down to do part of the study?

 

[muffntuf]

Yes that is what she is saying.

 

[my mini charlie]

[SIZE=14pt]WOW, as an owner of a wonderful dwarf (along with other "show quality" mini's) I am very disturbed by this post!!! Mine leads a wonderful life and is so loving to everyone! He has taught many children how to care for horses!! I can not imagine using him for research!! Just because they are not show horses they are still living, feeling, beings!!

How sad![/SIZE]

 

[Judi Renchen]

John,

I don't know if it will help or not but contact Gary at Owen County Southern States Coop in Owenton, Ky. He mentioned a man named I think Charlie Gaines that has a dwarf and his daughter is trying to sell her mini's to go to college. I'm not sure if they would work with you or not. I'm not sure even if it's what your asking for but the information is there if you want it. Perhaps Jim Payne at Liberty Farms knows of this man as well, he has a body shop I believe in Owenton. I've lost his number but Gary should be able to help you. Good Luck in your research.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

John,

I appreciate what you are doing and like you and many others hope something will come one day of all the hard work, time and personal financial support you are putting into this. Hopefully it will lead to a test to determine what horses would be producers so we as breeders could make educated decisions about our breeding programs. I have no doubt that you coming to this board and asking for help probably wasn't easy, but we did ask! We said "please tell us how we can help" and we meant it. Unfortunately, this request is probably more than any of us bargained for, but I totally understand the need. I don't have a dwarf and I don't know that if I did I could offer it for this purpose even though I know it's for the betterment of the breed as a whole. I just ask that others don't judge or overreact to John's request. He is one of very few who are actually doing something to try and eliminate this problem from our breed. It's more than I can say I'm doing to help the breed.

Thank you John

 

[Mona]

[SIZE=14pt]WOW, as an owner of a wonderful dwarf (along with other "show quality" mini's) I am very disturbed by this post!!! Mine leads a wonderful life and is so loving to everyone! He has taught many children how to care for horses!! I can not imagine using him for research!! Just because they are not show horses they are still living, feeling, beings!!

How sad![/SIZE]

This thread will be very controversial I am sure, however, this needs to be done for the sake of improvong the breed. If the dwarf genes can never be isolated, we as breeders will never learn how we can avoid them. Yes, they (dwarfs) are sweet little creatures, and even though they are not shown, I know they are loved by many. BUT, we as an industry need to learn as much about dwarfism as humanly possible, and sadly, this cannot be done without adequate research.

Perhaps there are owners out there that have a live dwarf of this type, that are nearing their decision to end the horse's suffering, and this would be a good chance to help out, and to know the little horse was valuable even in death.

 

[horseplay]

I know research must be done but I can't help but feel posting this here was in poor taste, JMO

 

[user 488]

This thread will be very controversial I am sure, however, this needs to be done for the sake of improvong the breed. If the dwarf genes can never be isolated, we as breeders will never learn how we can avoid them. Yes, they (dwarfs) are sweet little creatures, and even though they are not shown, I know they are loved by many. BUT, we as an industry need to learn as much about dwarfism as humanly possible, and sadly, this cannot be done without adequate research.

Mona I couldn't agree more. And Parmela thank you for your excellent post. Research like this is the only way. Thank you John for your continued efforts.

Carol

 

[tagalong]

Perhaps there are owners out there that have a live dwarf of this type, that are nearing their decision to end the horse's suffering, and this would be a good chance to help out, and to know the little horse was valuable even in death.

Exactly right. Dwarfs may succumb to an assortment of issues at any stage of their lives - and there may be one out there who is struggling at the moment and in difficulty... who may help us all understand what he and those affected in the same way are going through. Our little dwarf Cowboy

is still trucking along at 6 years of age without any pain issues (despite what he looks like) but we know that at some point he may need us to step in and make The Decision for him so as not to cause him further pain. Some of our little Special Needs ones need to make that journey sooner than others...

And no - I did not find John's request to be in poor taste. JMO... YMMV.

 

[horseplay]

nevermind

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Glad to hear your research is still continuing! Hopefully we'll have some conclusive evidence one day.

As for the need for a live specimen - there are many dwarves born that do not get the level of love/quality care that some can and do lavish on them. For those that will end up leading a short and often painful existence . . . well the alternative isn't very humane to allow them to suffer. I'm not going to speak for Mr. Eberth, but I don't think his intent was to insult or cause issue by his request. It's well known the Forum is the best way to get the info out! Hopefully someone knows of someone with a dwarf that fits his profile that may be living in less than ideal circumstances.

 

[Shortpig]

I do understand there is a need to study the genes that cause dwarfs to be born. I also understand that alot of these sweet little angels live a miserable existence. Research is a wonderful and necessary part of our learning and education of many things. I have been blessed with healthy foals always so have not faced the needs of taking care of a dwarf. That stated and knowing what I have heard where breeders are concerned and actually seen of some breeders or at least some people who call themselves breeders I know that the honest breeders out there would never breed horses that have previously thrown dwarfs. However, all the research and knowledge we can gain will not stop everyone from wreckless and careless breeding. They will continue to do this and continue to take the chance of creating these sweet little creatures. I'm sure these specimens will receive the best care while being studied. However,

what will this study entail. How long will they live before they will be put down to do the rest of the testing. What kind of information will be used in the study? Will actual bloodlines be used during this study to find out if certain bloodlines have created more dwarfism than others?

My biggest question is: Will these animals be poked and prodded while living to conduct some of these tests? As humans when we have to have painful tests done we are able to have the situation explained to us but we aren't able to explain to an animal why they are going to be stabbed with a needle or why when they wake up they hurt so bad.

I personally know of a miniature horse a member of the forum owns who was rescued from a research facility. They opened windows into his gut area so they could watch the inner workings. He has permanent scars from this and they aren't all physical. His owner loves and lavishes him with attention but he still shows signs of an animal who has been abused and unable to give all his trust. He couldn't have a better loving and more gentle home. Will normal foals be used in this research also to learn the difference in how the growth plates grow and develop?

I would just require alot more information before I would consider donating an animal to research. More goes into this than just care of the animal while in the program. Maybe some of this info could be shared or maybe there are alot of people who would prefer to not know. One can not make an educated choice when they don't have the information required to make one.

How wonderful science is. It has truly saved many lives and without it those lives would never have been saved. Please don't forget all the battles that have been waged to stop experiments done on live specimens in our country in the name of science.

 

[txminipinto]

As a Registered Veterinary Technician of 10 years, employed in the division of research with a major veterinary college I can assure you that this kind of research isn't the same as what you see PETA spouting off propaganda about. I can't speak for John's circumstances, but I can assume that they are very similar, there are committees after committees in place to assure proper care of ALL research animals. They are not "poked and prodded". Any and all procedures that may cause any kind of discomfort must be properly anesthetized with pain control measures in place. They aren't tortured. They must have the proper personal with the proper handling experience as well as the proper facilities. These types of projects are reviewed by committees frequently.

Now in regards to testing on live/real vs. computer. You can not do research for living beings based on a computer model. This is truely uncharted territory and you must have real animals to get true data. I totally respect what John is doing and it's something that needs to be done. In research, it's important to seperate emotions from science. That's not to say we don't care about our research animals, we do greatly. But their purpose is greater than what our pets and show horses purposes in life. Their purpose is for future generations. To prevent and fix our past mistakes. It is not in poor taste to post such a request on this forum or to this community, it was the perfect place.

And once John is finished with this project, I believe there is more research to do with the small equine genetics and other issues we're seeing. John, if I had one, you'd have it immediately!

John, I'll keep my eyes and ears open here and maybe I can find one for you. Just let me know what the criteria is.

 

[Shortpig]

I don't feel the request and posting it was in bad taste. I would just like to know that everything possible will be done for these little ones so they will not suffer anymore than they already have.

 

[Arion Mgmt]

Ok,

I appreciate the majority of you understanding the necessity of my work. If it was possible to look at certain disease characteristics without doing necropsies, it would be done. Unfortunately that is not available. Anyone that has ANY understanding of disease research knows and accepts certain consequences of work needed to find a cure or to find the cause in animals. ALL sound scientific studies of a disease involve pathological study of the disease. Same as in humans.

If you have cancer and there is an EXPERIMENTAL drug being tried that has good results, and you want to try it, you basically sign your life away, for the betterment of research for the rest of us. This is especially true if you already know you are going to have a much shorter life because of the cancer, why not try it. I would.

I am an organ donor. I know many of you probably are, WHY???? if you are not understanding what you are giving your body parts up for, which is to hopefully save another life, or in some cases your parts are donated for research which in turn hopefully saving another life!

All of you, especially the "small breeders", should appreciate and understand the necessity of my work the most, dwarfism has a much higher chance of affecting your breeding program more than a large breeder, by the potential sheer numbers of offspring produced and loss of value to the offsping.

Those of you that think my request is in poor taste or I brought this request to the wrong place, where do you suggest I go????? Where else in this industry is there a single place that breeders from ALL OVER THE WORLD congregate for help and info??? From crying out loud you have a whole dwarf section, I answered your questions!!!!! what do you think it is there for, entertainment or novelty???? You all invited me, I was asked to let you all know what I was doing. Are we STILL in the era of 30 years ago when it was all just swept under the rug and ignored??

Do I have to go back to years past where I had to stay with my handful of breeders that had the wherewithall about this problem and wait for a dwarf to be born by chance??

In the Fresian breed there is a type of Dwarfism. It recently was documented by a definitve paper from Europe characterizing the disease. They had 5 live dwarfs donated and it was even in the paper stated clearly what the resulting consequences of those animals were for the research of this disease. BTW it looks like our type 2. Their breed is MUCH smaller than ours and they as a registry and group of breeders had all of the understanding and comprehension of what was needed to do and accepted it as necessary. Cant we as a larger breed with a bigger problem be able to emotionally and mentally handle that???? I am sure we as a breed produce more dwarfs each year than the Fresians do.

Yes, some people have special bonds with their dwarf horses, just like some people have a special bond with there organs or blood, or other pet or animal, or whatever. If you are one of those fine, but then accept the fact that there are others out there that see that this is a rampant problem and want it solved. I dont get on here and make comments about certain threads that I dont think should be here or that I think the topic is worthless. Every thread has some value to someone in this industry.

Respectfully,

John

 

[horsehug]

John,

You know how much I respect your research and efforts and that I have been behind you and your research for years now, since I first emailed you with my questions years ago now and you were so good to answer my questions in detail to help me understand more about dwarfism. And like I told you in an email when you first posted this yesterday.......I wish I had one right now to donate to your research!

I am glad you brought up your dwarf forum here on LB also. I refer back to it and look up what you said about certain things when various aspects about dwarfism are brought up. I think that whole set of questions and answers is an invaluable tool and set of information for all of us. I hope your request will make people go there and re-read all your info again!

You have done and are doing a huge service for our breed in my opinion and you know my support of it will continue.

Thanks again so very much!

Susan O.

 

[Southern_Heart]

John,

Thank you for your post and this last one.

I beleive you came to the right place to post all of this. No way was it in bad taste.

With out your knowledge and all your work on the dwarves, we for sure would never know what is causing all of these dwarves to be born.

I am 100 % for you and your work on all of this. I am sure its not an easy tast. You alone go way above and beyond the call of duty for doing all of this.

If I ever have a dwarf, I can asure you, I will be sending it your way.

Thank you so much John for posting.

I wish you the best in trying to find the causes for all of our miniature horses. The future depends on your findings.

Thank you, Thank you for all your hard work.

Joyce