2008 AMHR Nationals Results

[~Lisa~]

I am curious if the issue is in the individual records of each show? And if so how would there be changes in HOF - All star points and other pointed year end awards?

 

[Crabtree Farm]

I wonder if this may help in knowing which horses qualified.

NAMHSA (North American Model Horse Association) issues a card to each first place and second place winners in each of their classes. (Handed out with the ribbon) This was a ticket that would qualify you to enter their nationals. When entries were sent in, you had to attach your ticket to the entry form. On the card had the show you showed in, (easy way to check if you had shown, you had to win a ticket).

Ticket had show name/date and it had room for class/name of winning horse on ticket. So no confusion.

Tina Ferro

Crabtree Farm

 

[dmk]

I wonder if this may help in knowing which horses qualified.
NAMHSA (North American Model Horse Association) issues a card to each first place and second place winners in each of their classes. (Handed out with the ribbon) This was a ticket that would qualify you to enter their nationals. When entries were sent in, you had to attach your ticket to the entry form. On the card had the show you showed in, (easy way to check if you had shown, you had to win a ticket).

Ticket had show name/date and it had room for class/name of winning horse on ticket. So no confusion.

Tina Ferro

Crabtree Farm

I would think it would very easy - form on home office website that you have to have stamped or signed by show manager - sent in with National entry....

And every show has a master list of horses entered so the information is there as to which horses showed - whether they placed or not. You would be relying on the show manager to provide that information correctly.

 

[user 488]

Again, this is NOT Rocket Science.

With our US Arabian Nationals/Canadian Nationals/Regional Shows you have to list your qualifications on your entry form. The Show Management checks your qualifications BEFORE you are even issued your entry package (number, etc). I don't understand how a simple thing like this could turn into this giant cluster.

I also don't understand how something like this would take so long to be resolved. What's the problem?

I think that is all these people would like to know. The longer it takes the more people think that all is not quite on the up and up. And I personally don't blame them.

 

[Belinda]

[SIZE=10pt]Ok, I have my flame suit on as I knew I would need it for responding !! I am doing nothing more than trying to explain what went on , which is something I find most of the other Directors don't do as a general rule. !! Actually there are a few that want ALL DIRECTORS kept off any of these forums !! So not sure how that will go.. It is really hard to shut me up !!

[/SIZE]

First there were NO OFFICIAL LETTERS FROM THE OFFICE saying that placements had changed.. So therefore not sure why they would send letter out to say they HAD NOT CHANGED .?? This was all pending an investigation ( so to speak) No placings were changed ever , and /or published as changed. This was all hear say and things that were put on these chat forums, Flame me for that but it is the facts !!!!

With our US Arabian Nationals/Canadian Nationals/Regional Shows you have to list your qualifications on your entry form.

Exactly , is the reason there was error , that is supposed to be on all our Entry forms for Nationals !! and it was over looked when making the form and left off

, But last I knew to error was human. Actually the way our qualification are , Your horse does not have to place , and the only way to check these horses is after they show due to that fact , because if you don't place at the local shows there is no record except for a master list that you were there.. And those master list are not part of the show results that are published .. That being the reason I said we MIGHT have to change our qualifying rules. It has been I guess so to speak the HONOR SYSTEM.. As horse have NEVER been checked until after the fact so to speak..

We also could be able to check on these horses a lot more , if all shows would use the Show Program that we have , but many refuse so that make it a little harder to have all this via computer , There are actually some that still send in results "HAND WRITTEN"..

Now there is no cover up or trying to hide anything !! We are bound by our rules to NOT DISCUSS WHAT GOES ON IN CLOSED SESSION , and most of this was held in closed session .. Actually this time we had ( directors) sign a Confidentially affidavit ,

So if some seem a little reserved in talking about things that is why.. And I must state that everything I have said came out in open session... also I was not on the hearing committee , so I do NOT know all that came down in there..

Yes , I am very passionate about AMHR/ASPC as I do believe it is a good club, and I do believe that there are many that try and make this everyones club , NOT just a club for a chosen few , Sometimes it is hard on these chat boards to really know both sides and the FULL STORY of what goes on with some of these issues..

I am off my soap box .. and I have a big flame suit on so fire away .. But remember We are ALL HUMAN and sometimes there are errors or mistakes if you wish to call it that ..

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

We also could be able to check on these horses a lot more , if all shows would use the Show Program that we have , but many refuse so that make it a little harder to have all this via computer , There are actually some that still send in results "HAND WRITTEN"..

This, to me would be easy to fix. If you, the show manager, want your show to be an approved sanctioned show, than you MUST use the approved computer software and all results must be submitted in such form. Period, end of story.

And sorry, but to use the excuse that the section of the AMHR National Entry Form were one is suppose to write in their qualifying shows was left off the 2008 entry form is lame to me. It is clearly spelled out in the rule book how a horse is to be qualified to show at Nationals. I don't know if it is in the rule book or not, as to how the National Entry Form is to be designed, will have to look into that. And if there is a rule in regards to that, well....

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

[SIZE=10pt]First there were NO OFFICIAL LETTERS FROM THE OFFICE saying that placements had changed.. So therefore not sure why they would send letter out to say they HAD NOT CHANGED .?? This was all pending an investigation ( so to speak) No placings were changed ever , and /or published as changed. This was all hear say and things that were put on these chat forums, Flame me for that but it is the facts !!!![/SIZE]

Good point. I thought that folks had been notified of placings changing from what was deemed at the actual show.

Also, Belinda, you should be applauded for coming on here and trying to do what you can (within what you're allowed to do) to help folks understand. That is much appreciated. I just wish you weren't trying to "defend" the office all by yourself. I wish there were more like you and just better comminication in general from the office. It really would go a long way to making people feel better about some of the decisions that are made. JMO. It's tough on both sides and a little more effort on the part of the office would have gone a long way in my opinion.

OK, I need to be done with this topic.

 

[dmk]

There is a master list of entered horses compiled by the show manager at every show. That list is part of the results included in the packet the show manager sends in to the show department at the home office - which must be sent in within 30 days of the show. That list includes every horse that ENTERS the show whether it places or not.

Not published, but available to the home office so they can verify.

 

[~Lisa~]

Belinda thanks again for being willing to put yourself out there

I think a lot of the confusion came when the Journal was late and the reasons given to many were that placings had to be changed (not exact wording but the jist of it)

I thought it was all worked out at Convention but then reading the thread

Glad it is all figured out and over with and everyone can move on

 

[midnight star stables]

Also, Belinda, you should be applauded for coming on here and trying to do what you can (within what you're allowed to do) to help folks understand. That is much appreciated. I just wish you weren't trying to "defend" the office all by yourself. I wish there were more like you and just better comminication in general from the office. It really would go a long way to making people feel better about some of the decisions that are made. JMO. It's tough on both sides and a little more effort on the part of the office would have gone a long way in my opinion.

I agree

And Thanks Belinda! Your help is much appreciated!

 

[Littleum]

Exactly , is the reason there was error , that is supposed to be on all our Entry forms for Nationals !! and it was over looked when making the form and left off

, But last I knew to error was human. Actually the way our qualification are , Your horse does not have to place , and the only way to check these horses is after they show due to that fact , because if you don't place at the local shows there is no record except for a master list that you were there.. And those master list are not part of the show results that are published .. That being the reason I said we MIGHT have to change our qualifying rules. It has been I guess so to speak the HONOR SYSTEM. As horse have NEVER been checked until after the fact so to speak.. We also could be able to check on these horses a lot more , if all shows would use the Show Program that we have , but many refuse so that make it a little harder to have all this via computer , There are actually some that still send in results "HAND WRITTEN"..

Thanks for coming forward, Belinda. This is what I figured happened. Honest mistakes on both sides. I appreciate the "closed session" issue, but think it's more harmful then useful.

So if I'm understanding correctly, horse qualifications are not actually verified at the time National entries are submitted? How did AMHR manage to get to 2008 before that hit the fan? I'm kind of impressed and aghast at the same time.

Is it recorded with a horse's record (in the computer, at the office) what shows they attended?

Or are only placings recorded, and the actual paper master only gets consulted if there's a question?

 

[ClickMini]

Thank you Belinda for posting. Your points are all well-made. There was an inquiry, the results are in, and the winning horses were proven to be qualified.

I am sorry I brought this up in the first part, but a personal friend of mine was involved as well, and it was hurtful to her that the supposed changes in placings had been posted here as "fact" earlier on; not by AMHR, but by some people supposedly in the know. I don't know how the information about the inquiry was leaked out initially, but hopefully that is something that is rectified in the future as well. Nothing good came from it, that is for sure.

 

[maestoso]

Precisely why people need to be sure of their facts before they start on their rampage. All this frustration for a rumor!!!

 

[~Lisa~]

So if I'm understanding correctly, horse qualifications are not actually verified at the time National entries are submitted? How did AMHR manage to get to 2008 before that hit the fan? I'm kind of impressed and aghast at the same time.

I believe the difference was that the paperwork was handled and done by someone(s) different then has been in previous years. I would imagine that doing all of this for the first time mistakes are bound to happen. I know how hard it is to get paperwork settled and right for a small local show can only imagine the headaches in a huge show with 1700+ horses

Hopefully lessons were learned by everyone and next time what happens behind closed doors stays there until a decision is reached.

 

[Littleum]

So if I'm understanding correctly, horse qualifications are not actually verified at the time National entries are submitted? How did AMHR manage to get to 2008 before that hit the fan? I'm kind of impressed and aghast at the same time.

I believe the difference was that the paperwork was handled and done by someone(s) different then has been in previous years. I would imagine that doing all of this for the first time mistakes are bound to happen. I know how hard it is to get paperwork settled and right for a small local show can only imagine the headaches in a huge show with 1700+ horses

I guess my question is more does AMHR have a decent tool to allow office staff to verify entries?

Just example, but let's say each approved show gets given an ID#. When the Master arrives from that show, all the horses that were in attendance are added under that ID#.

So if you were to run a query (search) for a specific horse, you can see where that horse showed.

Or, you could also search by Show ID and see that horse listed under it.

Or is it a little more primitive?

I'm asking strictly from a professional standpoint. Data management is a major part of my job, so I'm just curious how AMHR handles their data.

 

[Lisa Strass]

Thank you Belinda for posting. Your points are all well-made. There was an inquiry, the results are in, and the winning horses were proven to be qualified.

Amy, are you sure this was the case for all horses in question? I appreciate the fact that in your friend's case this may be true, but there was more than one person questioned.

I think the whole situation is sad. Personally, I believe we are all adults, and we know to ourselves whether or not we have cheated. From small scale shows, to National level shows, to our large corporations, to our U.S. government, I just see this general trend to not take responsiblity for our own actions and instead blame the organizations or government for the problem.

I very much understand Jill's and other's frustrations with this whole situation. And I very much appreciate Belinda coming forward to tell what she can. I am also very passionate about ASPC and AMHR, but I do think our organization has room for improved communication to the membership. As someone else pointed out earlier, hopefully exactly what went wrong (can be multiple factors) has been identified, and we can learn from this to ensure it doesn't happen again. Just adding shows qualified at back on the entry form isn't going to solve the problem IMO.

 

[Amy]

Personally I don't think we need to change any qualificatiosn. The rule book states very plainly -- each horse must show at a minimum of 2 shows under a minimum of 4 judges.

Whether or not the line on the form was missed-- each person knows at which shows they attended with their horses -- and can quickly state them or have them verified by the office if need be. THe honor system should work very well still.

Gossip seems to have been the problem & if people did not spread rumors there would in fact be no problem.

SO , I for one do not see a need to change the way AMHR has always qualified horses for the National show.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

So to me this looks like it goes all the way back to the office

Yes everybody is human, we all make mistakes. BUT, it is their job, it is their responsibility. Do you think if someone makes these types of mistakes at any other office still keep their jobs? I don't think so. If they saw no box to list the shows you have been too then correct it and reprint it. Once you get the entries check each horse BEFORE the show and make sure that horse is indeed qualified. If their is a problem let that person know by calling them and try to get it straightened out. Honestly its not that hard to qualify. 2 shows, thats it. It shouldn't be that hard to keep track, we have computers, we have technology. Why decide to take all the placings away when their wasn't a problem to begin with. Its just all really sad IMO. The office really needs to get their act together for this years show season.

It sounds like we as AMHR members won't know all that took placed which I think is sad but oh well.

 

[Jill]

Thank you Belinda for posting. Your points are all well-made. There was an inquiry, the results are in, and the winning horses were proven to be qualified.

I haven't seen any results that are supposedly in nor seen any proof. We're not even officially told that these horses were now found to have been qualified -- yet we were told in November that they had not qualified. Now we're just told, through a message board, that the initial results will stand and that details will not be discussed -- that is not the same as saying "yes, every horse in question qualified, and this is where and when they did." Proof would go a long ways towards soothing the hard feelings and concerns. Right now, I'm figuring I won't see "proof" or the full story without an attorney's help. There are a couple issues she could probably help me with really...

If every thing's on the up and up, you don't need closed door sessions and secrecy. If all those reportedly unqualified horses really were qualified, why isn't that the official story from AMHR? Why don't we get to hear the details about where and when those horses qualified and why the registries show records did not reflect qualification at any point?

Honestly, I cannot imagine running my practice and handling my client records and relations in this kind of manner but maybe that's because I know I'm not one of only two games in town. So much for "customer service". A couple times today I thought how I cannot fathom expecting important, negative and personally pertinent information to reach one of my clients through the grapevine! I cannot imagine having this kind of a question surrounding my client records and management, either.

 

[Sandee]

.................................

SO , I for one do not see a need to change the way AMHR has always qualified hores for the National show.

I don't think we need any changes for these (see above) at Nationals either.

Oh, Amy, sorry not to pick on you as I have made this typo myself but when reading it here it just struck my funny bone.