Modifying an open bridle

[Marsha Cassada]

I want to put an overcheck on an open bridle. A horse I'm working with wants to ground drive with his nose on the ground like a scenting hound. I thought it was temporary, but he's done it two days in a row. So before I start zip tying and getting creative, I wondered if anyone had done this and if there are constructive suggestions?

I think one or two times with the overcheck will stop this hound-dog behavior before it gets to be a habit.

I longed him today with the overcheck and blinders bridle, but that isn't what I want right now. I want him to see all around--no blinders.

As an aside: all this winter fur is sure a pain when working with so many straps! Bridle, overcheck, halter... I have his beard trimmed and a bridle path, but he still has enough hair on his face and forelock to stuff a mattress.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I have to say, IMO, 2 days does not make a habit. I have trained several horses who after ground driving for a bit will drop their noses so low they are nearly dragging in the dirt, I just carry on and try to push them up a bit so they are not as strung out. Sometimes I will lunge them in sliding side reins to help them learn to carry themselves, but other than that I just carry on and accept their head placement. In time they will learn how to lift their front end (and head and neck) back up and reach under themselves with their quarters. One other exercise that I find that helps is serpentines and circles that go from large to small and back out to large. I have yet to have one that didn't quite dragging his chin on his own once he was using himself better.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I agree- the first thing I'd be asking is why he's doing it. Kody does that sometimes when his lower neck or pelvis are out of alignment, and many green horses go through a phase where they walk with their nose almost on the ground as they experiment with finding their balance and how to use their bodies. Just push him through it with lots of turns and transitions or take him out on a trail so he's going somewhere and he'll probably knock it off, allowing you to praise him and thus break the habit. A loose overcheck just tells him to stick his nose out and root harder.

If you need a little mechanical assistance in getting him to go forward then use baling twine to make loops for a side check to run through. That will keep him from getting his head down without accidentally pulling his nose up and out in front of him and making him hollow out.

Leia

 

[Marsha Cassada]

So a side check is better for this behavior?

I think he is doing it to evade the bit. I'll try him a few more times and see how he does before I resort to the check.

I am ground driving him out on the road. We do turns, serpentines, up and down ditches, transitions.

 

[Rhondaalaska]

Diva does this when there is new snow, we just keep changing what we are asking of her so she has to pay attention.

Ex: serpentines, Change directions, we even put poles down to walk over, anything to keep her engaged.

 

[Becky Horat]

Zip ties attached to the browband (where it attaches to headstall) work for loops to run a side check through. Just make sure to not have sharp edges on the zip ties when cut excess.

 

[Equine Events]

So a side check is better for this behavior?

I think he is doing it to evade the bit. I'll try him a few more times and see how he does before I resort to the check.

I am ground driving him out on the road. We do turns, serpentines, up and down ditches, transitions.

Maybe a different bit would make him more comfortable.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Maybe a different bit would make him more comfortable.

I started him in the copper french link and he was such a chomper that I moved him to the stainless myler french link. He was much happier right away. I believe he is comfortable with the bit but the problem is that he is a spoiled brat. A trainer and I are working with him, teaching him to longe, be tied, respect space. He is a big time pawer. I worried about that at first, but decided to let it go. I'm ground driving him because he is a smart boy and it is something he can do and think about. A different bit might suit him better for training, but I don't have access to try different miniature bits. Can you suggest one? I don't mind investing in good bits.

He's had his teeth done. Don't know about any chiropractic issues, though he does have a couple of mild conformational faults.

I'm only boarding him temporarily so my life does not depend on getting him into harness. We just thought it would be a good job for him, and I'm trying to figure out different ways to get him to be a team player, instead of a brat. He has a big smart bump, and all the indications of his head, according to TTouch, show he is exceptionally smart. He's not using his intelligence right now, except as it suits himself to get his way.

Not sure why I'm going to so much trouble, as when he goes back to his owner she most likely won't do a thing with him...

 

[hobbyhorse23]

From your description I'd say he's almost certainly acting out from a lack of mental stimulation. Putting a check on him will work about as well as telling a hyper kid at a grocery store "Don't touch that." That is to say he may stop doing that particular thing but he'll just try something else five seconds later! LOL. Address the real problem and challenge him; keep him thinking and working all the time.

Both of my boys are that sort of horse and had to be convinced that doing things my way was much more interesting and fun than what they had in mind. I must be driving every single step of the way, asking for bend and flexion and tempo and impulsion to keep their minds busy and always be praising them to keep their interest. If my mind wanders Kody will take over and Turbo will weave like a drunken sailor. I enjoy attempting to outsmart them and the challenge of staying one step ahead of my Machiavellian ponies. <3

Leia

 

[Equine Events]

I started him in the copper french link and he was such a chomper that I moved him to the stainless myler french link. He was much happier right away. I believe he is comfortable with the bit but the problem is that he is a spoiled brat. A trainer and I are working with him, teaching him to longe, be tied, respect space. He is a big time pawer. I worried about that at first, but decided to let it go. I'm ground driving him because he is a smart boy and it is something he can do and think about. A different bit might suit him better for training, but I don't have access to try different miniature bits. Can you suggest one? I don't mind investing in good bits.

He's had his teeth done. Don't know about any chiropractic issues, though he does have a couple of mild conformational faults.

I'm only boarding him temporarily so my life does not depend on getting him into harness. We just thought it would be a good job for him, and I'm trying to figure out different ways to get him to be a team player, instead of a brat. He has a big smart bump, and all the indications of his head, according to TTouch, show he is exceptionally smart. He's not using his intelligence right now, except as it suits himself to get his way.

Not sure why I'm going to so much trouble, as when he goes back to his owner she most likely won't do a thing with him...

I personally like a smooth mullen mouth. Not to thick for a mini. Sometimes with a broken bit they have too much going on in their mouth and get behind the bit.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

From your description I'd say he's almost certainly acting out from a lack of mental stimulation. Putting a check on him will work about as well as telling a hyper kid at a grocery store "Don't touch that." That is to say he may stop doing that particular thing but he'll just try something else five seconds later! LOL. Address the real problem and challenge him; keep him thinking and working all the time.

Both of my boys are that sort of horse and had to be convinced that doing things my way was much more interesting and fun than what they had in mind. I must be driving every single step of the way, asking for bend and flexion and tempo and impulsion to keep their minds busy and always be praising them to keep their interest. If my mind wanders Kody will take over and Turbo will weave like a drunken sailor. I enjoy attempting to outsmart them and the challenge of staying one step ahead of my Machiavellian ponies. <3

Leia

That is what Smokey is like, too.

This morning while grooming him he kept acting up. Every time, I'd longe him for a minute, or do some backing. Retie and see how he did. After the 3rd time of having to work, he stood nicely.

Lots of good info here. I think I will order a mullen bit. It's possible a french link does distract him.

Even though he isn't mine, I'm learning a lot from him.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I'm shopping for a mullen. Is this a good one? The company also carries a rubber mouth. I'm unsure about copper for Smokey, since he can be a chomper.

http://miniexpress.com/bits/copper-mullen-driving-bit/prod_125.html

 

[Equine Events]

I'm shopping for a mullen. Is this a good one? The company also carries a rubber mouth. I'm unsure about copper for Smokey, since he can be a chomper.

http://miniexpress.c...t/prod_125.html

looks good and rubber is fine if they have a soft mouth also.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Before I order from mini express I'm going to call Myler on Monday. They also have a mullen.

I used the side check on him today with the comfort snaffle I've been using. I zip tied the check. He was pretty funny! He could not figure out why he coudlnt' get his head down. I found it much easier to get him to pay attention and connect with me.

Another thing that seems to make him more responsive is if he can trot; more movement seems to help him give to pressure. I can't trot far! but we do a little, which helps with the transitions.

I really feel he is beginning to think about working as a cool way to get attention.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Good for you! Yes, these horses like to move and work and go places so they do tend to like trotting. It's a reward for them, a release from all that boring walking.

Wouldn't you be more willing to cooperate if you thought your instructor was going to let you have some fun?

Mullens are perfectly good bits and Mini Express typically sells good products (although I haven't seen their bits in person to make sure the joints are smooth, etc.) but you've got him in one of the best bits out there already. I really don't think changing it is going to magically fix anything at this point as his problem appears to be all in his mind, not his mouth. Just my opinion. Perhaps later he may do better in a different bit but that would be related to headset and steering, not a busy little mind creating evasions from boredom. Save your money!

Leia

 

[Minimor]

Also remember that when you are walking you should ask for an energetic walk. Too many people allow the horse to dawdle along at a slow walk--and when the horse dawdles this way he is sluggish to respond to cues. He will be much more responsive and attentive if he is walking briskly than if he is plodding along.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I talked to Dale at Myler Bits this morning. He asked me what Smokey was doing, and had an interesting insight to offer. He said the snaffle was asking Smokey to lower his head because of the tongue pressure. If corrected to raise his head, more pressure goes on the tongue and signals him to lower his head. Thus, the side check is not really the answer either. He said the middle roller was not causing him to mess with the bit, but rather the pressure on his tongue was what he was trying to evade. He did not think a mullen would be an improvement in Smokey's case. He suggested a low port bit and to contact Estate Supply for more advice.

So, I have a call into Estate and will pursue this.

I do think Smokey going like a scenting hound is a seperate issue from dropping his head in response to the bit. But it could all work together.

I am wondering if the overcheck would keep the bit lifted off his tongue? It's a question to ask the Estate guy.

Bits are so facinating!!

I was discussing this with my trainer friend, telling her how nice the Myler bit is. She said most bits are for people; horses don't care what a bit looks like, as long as it doesn't have burs or pinches.

 

[Rhondaalaska]

I hope you find a bit that smokey likes. When we lunge Diva she does the sent hound thing at times as well . She gets board going around in circles. Lol

But when we ground drive she has her head up. Smoky may be realy sensitive. I just have a regular snaffle bit. If you figure him out I bet he will be a great little horse. I hope the owners continue with him.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Okay, just talked to Estate and I actually do have the low port comfort snaffle. (It doesn't say anything about a port on my product tag. So glad I saved it!) So it is the best bit for him at this point. The guy walked me through the bits on the web site and discussed them.

So, I feel good about going ahead with Smokey. And I think I will use the side check again, being more aware of how it might be affecting bit action on him.

The nice things about both of these companies is neither tried to sell me something I didn't need! I would have bought a new bit if they had recommended it, but neither of them did.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I talked to Dale at Myler Bits this morning. He asked me what Smokey was doing, and had an interesting insight to offer. He said the snaffle was asking Smokey to lower his head because of the tongue pressure. If corrected to raise his head, more pressure goes on the tongue and signals him to lower his head.

To some extent that may be true, but horses will learn to go where you release the pressure. If you make it unpleasant when his head is on the ground and release the pressure when he puts his head up, he will learn to keep his head up regardless of what kind of bit he has. (Remember, I am not advocating yanking on his mouth when he does the bloodhound thing. It is much less effective than simply pushing him forward from the rear!) Anyway, horses have been traveling with their heads up in snaffles for many, many years. As a direct pressure bit as opposed to a curb, it actually works better when there's a direct line from the bit to the rider's hands. It is not designed to make the horse put his head down.

My feeling is when he puts his head down like that if the reins are running through the saddle terrets then the bit is probably pulling upwards against his teeth and not on his tongue directly anyway. That's why he can root against it so hard! From that position he can also push very hard with his tongue, minimizing any remaining effect of the bit.

I do think Smokey going like a scenting hound is a seperate issue from dropping his head in response to the bit. But it could all work together.

That's my thought too.

I am wondering if the overcheck would keep the bit lifted off his tongue? It's a question to ask the Estate guy.

A loose overcheck won't keep it off his tongue and a tight one will prevent that lovely swinging walk you want in a good trail horse.

I was discussing this with my trainer friend, telling her how nice the Myler bit is. She said most bits are for people; horses don't care what a bit looks like, as long as it doesn't have burs or pinches.

I think that's true as far as the style of bit and all the gadgets we humans come up with, but the horse DOES care if the bit is thick or thin and how it acts in his mouth. It has to be comfortable for them and that's more than just not pinching their skin or soring their bars with a rough spot. The most important thing is the hand attached to the reins! It's a truism that the gentlest bit can be a torture device in the wrong hands, and a piece of wire could be gentle in the hands of an expert. I still say your horse has a training issue and not a bitting one

but I admire your dedication in pursuing every avenue!

Leia