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JWC sr.

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Did everyone get the list of judges for the World show 2009 and what are your opinions of the slate?

Leslie Connor

Dana Gardner

Wayne Hipsley

Sid Hutchcraft

Karen Iversen

Ray Randall

Joyce Swanson

Todd Trushel

Jon Wolf

Judy Wright

Alternate

Roger Eitel

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:DOH! Lets just keep the comments general in nature and not get personal. LOL
 
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Thanks for the list.

There are a couple I don't know - never even heard of actually - but I guess I'm still a newbie to some extent so that's not so surprising. And then several I've showed under. I've not always placed as high as I'd like, but I thought they were fair placings. I'd say I'm pleased with the list. Looks like several of the "best" meaning "fair" are on it from what little I've seen and/or heard from others. Should be an enjoyable show!
 
I've shown under 5 of them and never had any issues with their judging.
 
I've shown under a couple of these in the past, I'm a newbie so haven't even heard of some of them, but anyways, the couple I have shown under were VERY fair!
 
Great line up of judges. Some I don't know but have shown under several and been very pleased.
 
The ones I've shown under I thought were fine but have to ask, why two sets of five? Is AMHA going back to the five judge system rather than the four?

Didn't go to the World this year but was looking forward to next year and really like the four judge idea.
 
Yes, we did return to the old system, the petition that was in the show office had the desired effect. Now, we will have to search for other ways to reduce costs.

If any of you have suggestions on how to reduce costs of the regional and world shows, please contact your board members, and you can also send them to me since Tom O'Connell seems to have 'recruited' me for a new committee to work on reducing costs of the Eastern show. We are also searching for a new location for that show as well. We have come up with three groups of three directors from each region to work on their regional show.
 
Thanks for the information Judy, I think that is a good thing. Let Cindy and I know if we can be of help in anyway.
 
The judge line up looks pretty good!!! We have shown under several of them and didnt have any problems. Glad to here the 5 judge system is back in play too, I still believe its much more fair.
 
Yes, we did return to the old system, the petition that was in the show office had the desired effect. Now, we will have to search for other ways to reduce costs.If any of you have suggestions on how to reduce costs of the regional and world shows, please contact your board members, and you can also send them to me since Tom O'Connell seems to have 'recruited' me for a new committee to work on reducing costs of the Eastern show. We are also searching for a new location for that show as well. We have come up with three groups of three directors from each region to work on their regional show.
Hi Jody. Thanks for this information. Where can we find in the rule book that a petition is acceptable to change a show rule without going through the proper bylaws and flow chart that the members voted must be followed? The only place we can find a petition mentioned in the rulebook is Article 6, Section 4 (E) Special Measures. The petition is only allowed to amend a Bylaw, amend the Articles of Incorporation, or disolve the corporation. The article states: "Proposals to amend a Bylaw, amend the Articles of Incorporation: or dissolve the corporation may be made by a petition signed by at least five (5) percent of the voting members as of the April 1st preceeding the meeting or by a majority of the Board of Directors, and notice of such proposals shall be published in the Miniature Horse World or by mail to all members, at least sixty (60) days prior to the next Annual Meeting or Special Meeting. A petition does not cover amending Show Rules no matter how many signatures are received.

How many signatures were on the petition at the show office, and how many signatures are required on the petition to amend a show rule? How many signatures are needed on a petition to get the "desired effect" you speak of?

According to the AMHA rulebook on page 143, the procedure to amend a show rule does not mention anything about a petition. It states that the show rules may be amended at any Annual Meeting of the Association as per Article XIV of the Bylaws within a 60 day period. Article XIV says The Annual Meeting shall ratify the criteria for approving and the policies for approved American Miniature Horse Shows and shall approve show rules. It also states that when deemed necessary the Board of Directors shall exercise their power upon any of the above rules and policies, as per Article V, Section 3(A).

Article V Section 3 (A) says The Board of Directors shall have the power and authority to make. amend, or repeal and enforce such rules and regulations, not contrary to law, the Articles of Incorporation or these Bylaws.

According to Article XVI-Amendment of Rules, if the Board voted to change the show rule WS-025 again in the manner that they did at the October 15, 2008, meeting that vote would be contrary to the bylaws. As stated in this article there is a requirement of prior notice which the rule must go through. It refers to the flow chart on pages 57 and 58 to be followed. It states that all rule amendments must be published in their finished form in the Horse World or official correspondence not less than 60 days prior to the Annual meeting.

Section D of this bylaw also says that a rule is not subject to amendment by change, addition or repeal until it has been in force for at least two (2) calendar years. This rule WS-025 was amended in June 2007, by the board for the purpose of saving money, and has only been in effect one year. This bylaw says that limitation can be waived by the Board of Directors upon finding of exceptional circumstances which (1) concern the safety, health, or well-being of the horse and/or exhibitor (2) materially benefits AMHA's programs or its financial stability, or (3) involves compelling circumstances. These three concerns certainly could not give the Board a reason to quickly change a show rule just because signatures of members on a petition don't like the rule. There is no mention of any petition in any part of the show rules, or the bylaw to amend the show rules. This rule will be more costly to AMHA's financial stability. Had the board followed the rules and bylaws and allowed the members proper notification of the amendment to the rule, and allowed the members to vote on the rule at the 2008 Annual Meeting this problem could have been avoided.

The minutes of the June 2007 Board meeting stated that the LOC committee had extensively researched the amendment to WS-025 before they and the Show Rules committee recommended it to the Board to be passed. Why weren't the problems with the rule discovered before it was used?

When can the members of AMHA expect the Board of Directors to start following the rules that the membership has approved for the management of AMHA. A lot of money and time has and continues being spent to make and amend new rules that are not enforced.

Also another director (Libby Rosen) has posted here on Lil Beginnings that the World Show Judging System used at the 2008 World Show, allowed the judges to rotate after each division not each class. She gave the example of one set of judges would judge the division of senior stallions and rotate before the division of senior mares. Is Libby correct on how the judging was done at the show?

Please answer these questions for us so that we can all understand exactly what the Board is doing.

Thank you. CARE (Concerned Advocates for Rule Enforcement)

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I am also pasting below a copy of the new topic I just posted on the forum to help make members aware of what is going on within their association.

What can we do to ensure rules are being followed by our AMHA BOD and EC?, Your suggestions welcomed!

I am posting this on behalf of CARE, with hopes that we, as members of AMHA, can somehow put our heads together to try to figure out a way that we can hold the AMHA BOD and EC accountable for not following the rules and bylaws of our Association.

The rules were broken with the implementation of new judging system, and we have recently heard that the Board again voted at their October teleconference meeting to violate the rules once again by returning to the old judging system. They have overturned the members vote and given the members no input on the new rule when they passed it.

Libby Rosen (Mistyrose) told in her post (here on LB) of the judges rotating in each division, and not each class as the rule states. The Board passed two bylaw changes at their June meeting that had not even been written, let alone gone through the proper (and LEGAL, according to our Bylaws) flow chart and rule change procedure.

We are wasting our time hoping the Board will wake up and make some attempt to follow the rules that the membership has approved for management. It is very obvious this Board has no intention of doing what is right, they will do just what they want to do. They do it wrong, they change it back. They learn nothing, while the membership supports their violations and pay the price, often, financially.

The word we got from the October Board meeting, is that the three Championship Shows lost $18,000. If this is true, when you think about losing $18,000 of the membership's money on the three Champion shows, so just a small percentage of the members can attend the show, has got to stop. AMHA can not afford these shows. The reason for having these shows in the past was because the people that show their horses increase the value of the horses for members that don't show when it comes to selling horses. Well, from the results of several recent auctions, it is quite clear that even sales of the offspring of World Grand Champions does not make much difference in the selling price of many horses today.

We would also like to make mention of our upcoming AMHA elections. Before you cast your votes on whom you want to represent you in AMHA, we ask members to discuss with their candidates for their area, what their feelings are in regards to whether or not they will stand up for what is right and just in our association, to ensure the rules are followed, or will they just go blindly along with the "general concensus" of the other BOD and EC members as they continue to break the rules. We will say that we know not ALL current or past EC and BOD have been dishonest, and easily railroaded by the majority, but the majority seem to be taking over. There is no sense in an association such as our AMHA having rules and bylaws written and published if they are not going to be followed. PLEASE be sure to ask your area candidates where they stand on what you feel are important issues, and how they plan to represent you if they are elected for your area.
 
I started this post just to let folks know about the slate of judges, but in the responses several good points have been made and a few that I somewhat disagree with.
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I personally think that sometime in the very near future we will see AMHA be forced to a point where the entire charter, its by-laws and rules being completely revamped and rewritten. As you have pointed out in this post and in others I have looked at in the recent past. The rules and regulations of our charter are contradictory and sometimes in absolute conflict with each other.
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This is also made to be an even larger sticking point when in an honest attempt to get some things done, certain rules and regulations are ignored or circumvented. This has compounded the problems that the powers that be were trying to fix in the first place. By the way before I go any further let me say, I choose to believe that the majority of board of directors and officers are indeed trying to do things the best they can in most cases.

I know I get very frustrated with some of the things I see going on, but the time, effort and dedication of the volunteers that work as officers, board members and committee people warrants me giving them the benefit of doubt before I get too riled up about any particular issue.
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I also applaud the effort that folks such as Mona and C.A.R.E.do in trying to watch dog the registry, as it is a thankless effort that they catch a lot of flack over also I am sure. And I believe that the more people that are providing input and thinking outside the box the better the end results will be for the greater good of the whole registry.
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I may be naïve in taking this approach, but I do not think so.
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Mona is stating the facts actually as far as the regional shows losing money goes, the report was that they lost 18,000 plus dollars. Additionally, I do agree with her that it may be time to consider doing away with the Regional shows as AMHA does not need to be losing money on anything, that could be used elsewhere with more results for the greater good of the registry. But I will leave that decision up to the powers that be, that have all the inside information to make such a decision.
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We personally have not gone for two years now. The regional shows have gotten so small that the titles won there do not mean what they used to. The Central regional show was smaller and less competitive than several of our local club shows. For instance the Red River Shoot Out in Witchita Falls put on by the Southwest Miniature Horse club and the Okalhoma Miniature Horse club was larger than the Central Regional show and was really more competitive.
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In any case it has gotten to the point where people that are serious about showing have in most cases have already qualified the horses they are taking to the World show and do not want to expend the money to attend the regional shows in order to compete for a title that is not an indication of the level of competition of years past.
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At least that is what I have heard from many folks in our area.

As far as sales of National Champions get not bringing what they used to, I think that while that may be true in some cases. Personally here in our area and at our farm. We do not have any problem selling horses that can compete on the national level. We in fact bought two horses this last year private treaty that cost more than the majority of the horses in the World sale.
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We continue to look for ways to improve our breeding program and if that means bringing a certain bloodline and we get a chance at an outstanding individual with that bloodline we are in the market, even though we do not really need any horses with over 100 here at the farm.
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Again and I say this on a regular basis, the folks that are doing the advertising, showing what they breed and basically letting folks know what they are producing are not having problems getting sales for their horses. It is expensive, time consuming and a real pain but is a fact of life in our industry at this point in the real world.
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The days of producing horses that are average in outstanding attributes and capabilities, but expecting them to bring huge dollars are way past over. The buyers are much more discerning and educated when it comes to spending the dollars they work hard to get. Which I think is a really good thing. They know what they want and in today’s market are willing to wait till they find exactly what they are looking for.
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With all that and a dollar you may be able to get a cup of coffee, sorry it was so long. LOL
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I have clients that wanted to go to the AMHA World this year but after going to the AMHA Eastern Regionals this year they said NO. I can not blame them. We needed more points to get their minis qualified but when we arrived there 1 day before the show was to start...there was arguing going on already, protesting going on already, the tension was so thick that day that you could have cut it with a knife. Then the show...what can I say about that. Well, when you walk in to show your mini and a judge looks at an spectator behind you at the wall and gives them the #1 finger? Well guess which horse won. My clients saw that and they said they would never go to the AMHA World Show with this type of judging going on and the tension. They do not want to show AMHA anymore because of this.

My clients have called AMHA and talked with them about this and other questions they had and no one from AMHA has return their calls. I really hate this but I can not blame them.
 
I think it is an excellent slate.
 
Thank you John for your post in support and understanding of what CARE is trying to accomplish even if you don't agree with it all, all we ask is your understanding of our efforts and to attemp to heighten member awareness of goings on within our Association. Our future depends on it!

We certainly do understand that the rules are confusing and contradictory, but they are the rules that the membership passed, and they must be enforced as they are written, until they are changed, (through proper procedure
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If AMHA is ever sued again for not following the rules, it very possibly will be the end of our Association, or the loss of our not for profit status. The two times we are aware of that AMHA was sued in the past, the Association lost both times, and it was for violations of the rules. That could easily happen again with so many unhappy members at this time. How many of us want the membership's money spent on other lawsuits because the Board does not follow the rules? If this should happen we will feel that at least we tried to help through our efforts in pointing out the blatant violations, but we can't do it alone. The membership needs to take notice of what is happening to our AMHA before it is to late.

Thanks again John for speaking here, and also to our many other supporters, that prefer to send their support privately.
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I will say that I feel the Central Regional show was VERY competitive! There were many many TRAINERS there , as well as INDIVIDUALS. It was almost as tough as the World show for some classes, IMO. So, I am puzzled at the remarks about the Central Show. It was a great show and very well attended- people were super nice and helpful. I believe there were around 200 horses there. Tough- you bet tough. The quality was OUTSTANDING!! It was hard to place.....maybe that is the problem and why folks don't want to go. Well, I went, even placed, all by myself! And I am PROUD to say it! My placings mean a whole lot to me- you see- I did this all on my own this year and that is no easy task. I even placed right behind the Top Trainers' horses in several instances. And, next year I am going to beat them! lol I had a great time! I hope the Central Show stays put!

Peggy

PS Sounds like a great group of judges!
 
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Peggy,

you have every right to be proud of your placings at the Central show. In my inept attempt to make a point about the lack of attendance, I inadvertently demeaned the folks that did go and win.
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I apologize for that spin it was not intended to be in any way personal or meant to minimize anyone's efforts I assure you.
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With that said though I hope the powers that be will find a way to stop the losses we can ill afford.
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Again please accept my apology and best wishes,
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Thank you Mona, and others, for looking up the rules and Bylaws and indicating what all the problems seem to be. I am not a parliamentarian so I appreciate your clarification.

And John, I think you are a very smart and fair-minded individual as you stated:

" I choose to believe that the majority of board of directors and officers are indeed trying to do things the best they can in most cases. "

Your positive attitude is refreshing.

I am of the opinion that until the details of the Constitution and ByLaws are understood and amended, where needed, the Association is again in danger of being sued. If the Officers and Directors will think of OUR BREED and OUR ASSOCIATION rather than any personal interests which are in operation, I believe they will be able to resolve these problems with cooperation. And, if the general membership will also think of OUR BREED and offer to help the Association, this can be accomplished more easily and equitably.

Strife and anger will only serve to bring more disunity to our association.
 

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