A horse of a different color

[Getitia]

Like many of you, I love to decode both the phenotype and genotype of our horses (using their offspring, DNA testing and researching the pedigrees to put the pieces of the puzzle together). I have all of the horses in our herd correctly identified except this mare -

Those in Ohio know her - its Magilla who is a 10 years old A size (amha/amhr) mini mare - her sire is a blanketed chestnut appaloosa - true chestnut - nothing unusual (does not appear to be carrying silver or agouti based on his many, many offspring but not confirmed through testing) her dam is a bay - plain and simple a solid bay -

The sire or dam neither one has produced anything unusual in their lifetime except this mare - who from a phenotype is blue

So here are some of the puzzle pieces:

This photo shows her with 2 weeks of hair growth - she is the same blue color throughout - her legs at the base are a little darker shade and her mane/tail are a dark blue as well. In the winter -her body is a darker blue - when clipped a lighter shade of blue. No dapples - some small white spots across her rump and some mottling (appaloosa heritage) hooves are solid no stripes.

She has produced 2 foals - when bred to a black - she produced a chestnut (the black was a red carrier and obviously she is as well due to her chestnut sire)

And when she was bred to a bay pinto (Wardance) - she produced a pinto filly - who is the same identical color of "Blue" so a blue pinto just like her - so the same shade of "blue" is genetic and it has passed on in the first generation - again she is identical to Magilla - except a pinto

She has not produced any other foals although she is in foal for 2007 - and her daughter is in foal for 2007 (her first)

I'd be glad to DNA her - but for what - Red (we know she is carrying red) Creme (not possible based on sire/dam) agouti - not sure what that would tell us - silver - could be the wild card - if the sire is a silver carrier- but silver and base black should not produce "blue"

I'm asked at every show - What color is she? People turn their head and squint their eyes and stare trying to figure it out ........................she obviously does not carry the dun gene - so grulla is out - although that is the color she is registered since nothing else even comes close to a blue horse except that color.

Many on the forum have seen her up close and can verify that to look at her - she looks like a grulla without the "dun" characteristics - she is blue.

So any guesses on the possible genotype?..................................................she sure has me stumped. :new_shocked:

And for those who participate in color genetic forum discussions, you have my permission to repost any of this information and photo - as I have never ran across any other miniatures (or full size horses for that matter) that were the same shade of blue as her and her daughter.

Edited to add a photo of a black horse with 1 weeks hair growth for comparison as it may be helpful

 

[Ashley]

She is either black, or a very dark liver chestnut. I liver chestnut gets dark like that in the winter/late summer.

 

[Leeana]

I wish i knew Getitia but she is such a beauty!

I still cannot get over how beautiful and graceful she is, sorry i couldnt add any helpful info but i think she looks amazing.

 

[chandab]

Wow, she has very unique coloring, and she's just gorgeous. She doesn't look right, clipped, to be even a liver chestnut; but she appears to have brownish/red highlights in her lower legs (although that could be the picture). As far as testing goes, about the only thing worth testing for would be red factor and agouti (she could be seal brown, or another very dark agouti based color); at least then you'd know if she was black based or red based and whether or not agouti played a role in her coloring.

I don't think there is a test for blue.

:

If you decide to test, let us know what you find out.

 

[~Karen~]

I'm lost when it comes to colors, but I wanted to tell you, she is Beautiful!! I LOVE unusual colors, and she is certainly that.

~Karen

 

[wiccanz]

Well, I suppose she could just be a freak of nature - these odd things do happen from time to time

But I think if she were mine I'd test her for everything, just in case, she obviously carries red, and appears to be black based.

Very unusual, and very lovely. :bgrin

 

[Sue_C.]

Is it possible that her dam is actually a bay-dun?

I have a yearling filly just about exactly this same colour, who is by my bay stallion, and out of my bay dun appy mare. She had the darker shoulder barrning at birth, but it disappeared into the darker coat she now has. I consider mine a grulla, and would so, your mare.

 

[wwminis]

[SIZE=14pt]She's beautiful! [/SIZE]

I would test her for the black gene! She appears to me to be a Smokey Black! I think the red on her legs in this pic is a reflection off the pink flowers! :bgrin

Bill

 

[southernmother]

I don't really have anything important to add, I just wanted to tel you that your mare is one of the most beautiful and unusual colored horses I think I've ever seen! What a gem you have, she's breathtaking!!

 

[Getitia]

Hey thanks for all of the suggestions. :aktion033: :aktion033: Keep them coming.

I'll see if I can locate a photo of her dam - to post - but she really is a typical bay - no dorsal stripe, no leg barring , cobwebbing, shoulder markings - nothing to indicate from a phenotype she is carrying dun - nor any dun in her background - nor did she ever produce a dun -

Has anyone had a dun that had zero dun characteristics? Wonder if that would be possible? - some strange dilution variation that impacted the base color like a dun - but no dun characteristics at all.

Magillas head has never been darker than her body even as a baby and you can sort of see in the photo that it really is the same shade all the way back- nor as a foal did she have any dun characteristics -or does she even today.

Bill, I don't believe she could be carrying cream - as her bay dam would have been buckskin and her chestnut sire would have been a palomino if either carried cream.

I too believe she is base black (and could test to confirm that fact) - we know she is a red carrier since she produced a chestnut foal - (plus her sire is chestnut.) Plus we have her daughter now - she is the same blue shade - no dun characteristics either.............................so if Magilla has some mutant variation - it has passed on genetically - In the spring, I'll take photos of them side by side - and will be interesting to see what they produce in the spring.

Just when you think you "may" have it figured out - you get a big ole curve ball :lol:

Thought this maybe helpful on the Dun aspect and she has the "diluated body color" a must have - but we are missing the must have dorsal stripe

:

Dun is a "dilution" gene (like Creme, Champagne, and Silver) which modifies but does not fundamentally change the base color. Unlike Creme, Dun is a simple Dominant, meaning that the color effect is the same whether the individual has one or two Dun genes.Dun Markings:

Any individual horse may have most, but not necessarily all of these traits:

diluted body color, somewhat like that of the Creme gene (this one is a MUST-HAVE)

dorsal stripe (this one is a MUST-HAVE)

zebra stripes on knees and hocks

ear lining and tips: top one-third of the ear on its back side darker than body color

fawn color inside of ears

mane and tail lined with lighter color (2-color mane & tail)

cob-webbing on face

face darker than body color

Dappling is not associated with the Dun gene (although many owners of duns report that their horses are dappled!)

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

I got nothing. I just wanted to say I think she is BLUE T FUL !

:

 

[coopermini]

Getitia

She is pretty!

I'm not a color expert but from my old genetics classes I would guess she is black based with a silver gene and something mutated in the process. A new or very rare form of silver/black. Color variations occur much more often in plants (geraniums used to be be all same color). How many colors were horses 50 years ago or a hundred? Every now and the mother nature throws a curveball or two.

Mark

 

[Lewella]

The Leopard Complex messes with shade and with minis more so than even big horses because minis have more restrictor genes at their disposal to prevent proper Leopard expression. I expect she'll test Eeaacrcrzz - it's going to be a couple of years yet probably before we have a test for any part of the Leopard Complex but when that time comes I'm certain she'll test to be an Appy - just a very resticted expression one.

:

Dun if present shows. It can be faint on some palominos and of course hide on double dilutes but it will definetly show on the "normal" colors. A lot of Leopard Complex minis with restricted expression get labeled as "grulla" just on shade even though they do not have the necessary primative markings.

 

[Dona]

I have no real suggestions here Getitia....but I just wanted to add that I have seen Magilla many times at shows, and she IS even lovelier than her photo shows.

: I've never really looked close enough to see if she was a "uniform" blue color...or a "roaned" blue color? Could be she is just "Appy roaned" to that particular shade.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I would also go for restricted leopard.

Sorry Lewella I am still poor at reading results- are you suggesting she has Cream and Silver??

I was thinking possibly that on a black based Leopard (restricted)??

I can see she is not Dun, and the goggles round the eyes are pretty distinct.

 

[Meavey]

No Lewella says she´s just black, no cream no silver.

And a black with alot of white hairs tend to look blue so I agree with Lewella.

 

[kaykay]

i have also seen this beautiful mare. the first time getitia said so what color do you think she is?? Hmmmm beautiful?? is that a color?? LOL. This pic doesnt really reflect what a beautiful shade of blue she is. I offerred to bring her home so getitia wouldnt be bothered about it but getitia declined LOL

Getitia didnt she have a daughter this same color?

 

[Becky]

I can't help much with the color as I have one of those confusing colored horses that leaves you scratching your head!

My mare is registered as a grulla, but I don't really see any dun characterstics. I do know (from the foals she's produced) that she is black based but carries red. Other than that I have no idea!

:

 

[Jill]

Reading through this thread, the only thing that sounds like "the answer" to me is Leopard Complex. She is very pretty!

 

[Debby - LB]

Hi She is very pretty. Her color is the result of her Appaloosa heritage. The blue-steel grey almost iridescent color is a part of the leopard complex. It's is a very beautiful but weird to describe color. Again, she is awesome.